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Holomovement

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  • Mary
    John Lennon sang, I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together. And though older and more venerated said it first, this intersects beautifully
    Message 1 of 7 , May 8, 2010
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      John Lennon sang, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." And though older and more venerated said it first, this intersects beautifully with what I understand of phenomenology and physics. You might say it is an ancient theory proving itself each day. Whether there be a megaverse, multi-verse, or parallel universes, there is no exit from the unity of alterity. No scientific model, human experience or product is outside of or separate from. You tell me whether this translates into ethics or nihilism. Mary
    • tom
      Mary, I think paganism as well as eastern spirituality were both expressions of such a unity. In the 70s, a theoretical physicist wrote a book, The Tao of
      Message 2 of 7 , May 8, 2010
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        Mary,

        I think paganism as well as eastern spirituality were both expressions of such a unity. In the 70s, a theoretical physicist wrote a book, The Tao of Physics.

        Carl Jung said that despite geographical seperation, tribal people in different parts of the world have very similar myths, rituals etc. I believe our relgious tradition was so influenced by social control agendas, that this joyful unity was repressed. However, I have heard that all relgious traditions had an exoteric tradition for the masses, and an esoteric one for insiders. I suspect that the opposition between Christ and the Parasees was between loving, joyful unity and rule book finger wagging of Pharasees.

        I think it was Jung, but at least somewhere I read that in the east science and religion were never so seperate, and their science was never so soulless or their religion so mindless as ours.

        Peace and congratulations on your new findings,

        Tom



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Mary
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 9:37 AM
        Subject: [existlist] Holomovement



        John Lennon sang, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." And though older and more venerated said it first, this intersects beautifully with what I understand of phenomenology and physics. You might say it is an ancient theory proving itself each day. Whether there be a megaverse, multi-verse, or parallel universes, there is no exit from the unity of alterity. No scientific model, human experience or product is outside of or separate from. You tell me whether this translates into ethics or nihilism. Mary





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • William
        ... Mary, it could result in either or neither. The choice remains individual and personal. The tyrrany of forced ethics is as bad as the terrorism of full
        Message 3 of 7 , May 8, 2010
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
          >
          > John Lennon sang, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." And though older and more venerated said it first, this intersects beautifully with what I understand of phenomenology and physics. You might say it is an ancient theory proving itself each day. Whether there be a megaverse, multi-verse, or parallel universes, there is no exit from the unity of alterity. No scientific model, human experience or product is outside of or separate from. You tell me whether this translates into ethics or nihilism. Mary
          >
          Mary, it could result in either or neither. The choice remains individual and personal. The tyrrany of forced ethics is as bad as the terrorism of full blown nihilism. The solution to these unfortunate outcomes is democratically promulgated law.
          I see the great problem with reliance on such a legal system is the degredation of the laws into outmoded rules that lose their fairness over time and societal change.In our present system we rely on laws that are inappropriate for their time and present situations. Sunset laws could be an answer with an antilegislature as important as the legislature. Technology could help in this sunset movement as many people could vote to remove bad laws, outmoded laws. Bill
        • tom
          William, There are powerful forces in the police state and prison, industrial complex that push to expand punishments to keep prisons full and growing, and
          Message 4 of 7 , May 8, 2010
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            William,

            There are powerful forces in the police state and prison, industrial complex that push to expand punishments to keep prisons full and growing, and cops, probation officers, jailers etc. busy. The police state like the military industrial complex is largely self serving, and spouts garbage to get well meaning allies, who don't get economic benefits from it. Since 1970, the people behind bars in the US has went from about 200,000 to over 2 million, while crimes with victims rate has only increased slightly. The war on drugs has produced the most prisoners, but reduced alcohol levels for DUI, mandatory jail time for DUI offenders, spousal abuse laws that don't even permit the alleged victim to drop charges, arresting 20 something female teachers for having sex with male students etc.have also helped. The war on drugs to the police state might be like a right cross to a boxer, his number 1 knockout punch, but he also has hooks, uppercuts etc. which are like the stricter DUI laws, spousal abuse, and sex offences. I suspect these special interests are always looking for some new law to lock more people up, California is now spending more money on incarceration than education.

            Peace,
            Tom
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: William
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 11:56 AM
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Holomovement





            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
            >
            > John Lennon sang, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." And though older and more venerated said it first, this intersects beautifully with what I understand of phenomenology and physics. You might say it is an ancient theory proving itself each day. Whether there be a megaverse, multi-verse, or parallel universes, there is no exit from the unity of alterity. No scientific model, human experience or product is outside of or separate from. You tell me whether this translates into ethics or nihilism. Mary
            >
            Mary, it could result in either or neither. The choice remains individual and personal. The tyrrany of forced ethics is as bad as the terrorism of full blown nihilism. The solution to these unfortunate outcomes is democratically promulgated law.
            I see the great problem with reliance on such a legal system is the degredation of the laws into outmoded rules that lose their fairness over time and societal change.In our present system we rely on laws that are inappropriate for their time and present situations. Sunset laws could be an answer with an antilegislature as important as the legislature. Technology could help in this sunset movement as many people could vote to remove bad laws, outmoded laws. Bill





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William
            ... The knee jerk laws written in panic need review. Some poor mother who has lost a child in an accident petitions the legislature and we have Jimmys law or
            Message 5 of 7 , May 8, 2010
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              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
              >
              > William,
              >
              > There are powerful forces in the police state and prison, industrial complex that push to expand punishments to keep prisons full and growing, and cops, probation officers, jailers etc. busy. The police state like the military industrial complex is largely self serving, and spouts garbage to get well meaning allies, who don't get economic benefits from it. Since 1970, the people behind bars in the US has went from about 200,000 to over 2 million, while crimes with victims rate has only increased slightly. The war on drugs has produced the most prisoners, but reduced alcohol levels for DUI, mandatory jail time for DUI offenders, spousal abuse laws that don't even permit the alleged victim to drop charges, arresting 20 something female teachers for having sex with male students etc.have also helped. The war on drugs to the police state might be like a right cross to a boxer, his number 1 knockout punch, but he also has hooks, uppercuts etc. which are like the stricter DUI laws, spousal abuse, and sex offences. I suspect these special interests are always looking for some new law to lock more people up, California is now spending more money on incarceration than education.
              >
              > Peace,
              > Tom
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: William
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 11:56 AM
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Holomovement
              > Tom, Talking about such matters is in itself dangerous. I think that antilegislators must have legal cover when they affront such injustices. We protect our judges and those working to rid us of bad laws and rules will need similar cover.
              The knee jerk laws written in panic need review. Some poor mother who has lost a child in an accident petitions the legislature and we have Jimmys law or Jenas law . They are often highly punative and broadly written.
              In Marys question there is a kernal of truth. The collectivists ,the social do gooders will always gravitate toward more law,more punishment,more cops,more jails. This rush to punishment only infuriates the nihilistic faction and social discord ensues. If there were a legal method of removing such rules frustration could be avoided.Rules, promulgated by bureaucrats are worse than legislated laws. Any citizen should be able to challenge such rules and the antilegislature would be charged to review the propriety of the rule. This is no more than an extension of the checks and balances inherant in our constitution. Bill
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
              > >
              > > John Lennon sang, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." And though older and more venerated said it first, this intersects beautifully with what I understand of phenomenology and physics. You might say it is an ancient theory proving itself each day. Whether there be a megaverse, multi-verse, or parallel universes, there is no exit from the unity of alterity. No scientific model, human experience or product is outside of or separate from. You tell me whether this translates into ethics or nihilism. Mary
              > >
              > Mary, it could result in either or neither. The choice remains individual and personal. The tyrrany of forced ethics is as bad as the terrorism of full blown nihilism. The solution to these unfortunate outcomes is democratically promulgated law.
              > I see the great problem with reliance on such a legal system is the degredation of the laws into outmoded rules that lose their fairness over time and societal change.In our present system we rely on laws that are inappropriate for their time and present situations. Sunset laws could be an answer with an antilegislature as important as the legislature. Technology could help in this sunset movement as many people could vote to remove bad laws, outmoded laws. Bill
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • tom
              William, We are seeing the same reality. A mom has her beloved son killed by a guy with .2 alcohol level, and they pass a law where someone with a .08 is
              Message 6 of 7 , May 8, 2010
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                William,

                We are seeing the same reality. A mom has her beloved son killed by a guy with .2 alcohol level, and they pass a law where someone with a .08 is considered under influence from Jimmy's law. A six year old girl gets kidnapped, raped, and murdered and they pass Amber's law, which sends a 27 year old female teacher to jail for sex with a 16 year old male student.Congressional bills are often over a thousand pages these days, so nobody knows all that is in them. I heard the law that eastablished homesteading was only 4 pages.

                Peace,
                Tom
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: William
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 12:46 PM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Holomovement





                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                >
                > William,
                >
                > There are powerful forces in the police state and prison, industrial complex that push to expand punishments to keep prisons full and growing, and cops, probation officers, jailers etc. busy. The police state like the military industrial complex is largely self serving, and spouts garbage to get well meaning allies, who don't get economic benefits from it. Since 1970, the people behind bars in the US has went from about 200,000 to over 2 million, while crimes with victims rate has only increased slightly. The war on drugs has produced the most prisoners, but reduced alcohol levels for DUI, mandatory jail time for DUI offenders, spousal abuse laws that don't even permit the alleged victim to drop charges, arresting 20 something female teachers for having sex with male students etc.have also helped. The war on drugs to the police state might be like a right cross to a boxer, his number 1 knockout punch, but he also has hooks, uppercuts etc. which are like the stricter DUI laws, spousal abuse, and sex offences. I suspect these special interests are always looking for some new law to lock more people up, California is now spending more money on incarceration than education.
                >
                > Peace,
                > Tom
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: William
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 11:56 AM
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: Holomovement
                > Tom, Talking about such matters is in itself dangerous. I think that antilegislators must have legal cover when they affront such injustices. We protect our judges and those working to rid us of bad laws and rules will need similar cover.
                The knee jerk laws written in panic need review. Some poor mother who has lost a child in an accident petitions the legislature and we have Jimmys law or Jenas law . They are often highly punative and broadly written.
                In Marys question there is a kernal of truth. The collectivists ,the social do gooders will always gravitate toward more law,more punishment,more cops,more jails. This rush to punishment only infuriates the nihilistic faction and social discord ensues. If there were a legal method of removing such rules frustration could be avoided.Rules, promulgated by bureaucrats are worse than legislated laws. Any citizen should be able to challenge such rules and the antilegislature would be charged to review the propriety of the rule. This is no more than an extension of the checks and balances inherant in our constitution. Bill
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                > >
                > > John Lennon sang, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." And though older and more venerated said it first, this intersects beautifully with what I understand of phenomenology and physics. You might say it is an ancient theory proving itself each day. Whether there be a megaverse, multi-verse, or parallel universes, there is no exit from the unity of alterity. No scientific model, human experience or product is outside of or separate from. You tell me whether this translates into ethics or nihilism. Mary
                > >
                > Mary, it could result in either or neither. The choice remains individual and personal. The tyrrany of forced ethics is as bad as the terrorism of full blown nihilism. The solution to these unfortunate outcomes is democratically promulgated law.
                > I see the great problem with reliance on such a legal system is the degredation of the laws into outmoded rules that lose their fairness over time and societal change.In our present system we rely on laws that are inappropriate for their time and present situations. Sunset laws could be an answer with an antilegislature as important as the legislature. Technology could help in this sunset movement as many people could vote to remove bad laws, outmoded laws. Bill
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • William
                Message 7 of 7 , May 8, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > William,
                  >
                  > We are seeing the same reality. A mom has her beloved son killed by a guy with .2 alcohol level, and they pass a law where someone with a .08 is considered under influence from Jimmy's law. A six year old girl gets kidnapped, raped, and murdered and they pass Amber's law, which sends a 27 year old female teacher to jail for sex with a 16 year old male student.Congressional bills are often over a thousand pages these days, so nobody knows all that is in them. I heard the law that eastablished homesteading was only 4 pages.
                  >
                  > Peace,
                  > Tom
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: William
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 12:46 PM
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Holomovement
                  > Tom, We have some similar,perhaps libertarian views. I am sure your libertarianism is better refined than mine. About twenty years ago I simply capitulated. AIDS and OWI took me off the streets but I had some great years before the risks became too great. Jolly sport fucking and bar hopping made for a rock star life style that I will always fondly remember. I do not have the energy ,looks or testosterone for that life style anymore. Most midwestern cities do not have extensive public transit systems so you cannot club hop and drink. The bible pounders won that round of the cultural wars. I fought back by boycotting any number of their business enterprises. Hundreds of thousands of dollars flowed away from them for many years and I see no reason to change as they only attempt to turn the screws tighter. In two substantive ways they will never know what they missed. I am too old for the libertine life but I still detest the pounders and every day I find a way to make them pay. It is almost as fun as the the big old life was. Bill
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > William,
                  > >
                  > > There are powerful forces in the police state and prison, industrial complex that push to expand punishments to keep prisons full and growing, and cops, probation officers, jailers etc. busy. The police state like the military industrial complex is largely self serving, and spouts garbage to get well meaning allies, who don't get economic benefits from it. Since 1970, the people behind bars in the US has went from about 200,000 to over 2 million, while crimes with victims rate has only increased slightly. The war on drugs has produced the most prisoners, but reduced alcohol levels for DUI, mandatory jail time for DUI offenders, spousal abuse laws that don't even permit the alleged victim to drop charges, arresting 20 something female teachers for having sex with male students etc.have also helped. The war on drugs to the police state might be like a right cross to a boxer, his number 1 knockout punch, but he also has hooks, uppercuts etc. which are like the stricter DUI laws, spousal abuse, and sex offences. I suspect these special interests are always looking for some new law to lock more people up, California is now spending more money on incarceration than education.
                  > >
                  > > Peace,
                  > > Tom
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: William
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 11:56 AM
                  > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Holomovement
                  > > Tom, Talking about such matters is in itself dangerous. I think that antilegislators must have legal cover when they affront such injustices. We protect our judges and those working to rid us of bad laws and rules will need similar cover.
                  > The knee jerk laws written in panic need review. Some poor mother who has lost a child in an accident petitions the legislature and we have Jimmys law or Jenas law . They are often highly punative and broadly written.
                  > In Marys question there is a kernal of truth. The collectivists ,the social do gooders will always gravitate toward more law,more punishment,more cops,more jails. This rush to punishment only infuriates the nihilistic faction and social discord ensues. If there were a legal method of removing such rules frustration could be avoided.Rules, promulgated by bureaucrats are worse than legislated laws. Any citizen should be able to challenge such rules and the antilegislature would be charged to review the propriety of the rule. This is no more than an extension of the checks and balances inherant in our constitution. Bill
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <josephson45r@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > John Lennon sang, "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." And though older and more venerated said it first, this intersects beautifully with what I understand of phenomenology and physics. You might say it is an ancient theory proving itself each day. Whether there be a megaverse, multi-verse, or parallel universes, there is no exit from the unity of alterity. No scientific model, human experience or product is outside of or separate from. You tell me whether this translates into ethics or nihilism. Mary
                  > > >
                  > > Mary, it could result in either or neither. The choice remains individual and personal. The tyrrany of forced ethics is as bad as the terrorism of full blown nihilism. The solution to these unfortunate outcomes is democratically promulgated law.
                  > > I see the great problem with reliance on such a legal system is the degredation of the laws into outmoded rules that lose their fairness over time and societal change.In our present system we rely on laws that are inappropriate for their time and present situations. Sunset laws could be an answer with an antilegislature as important as the legislature. Technology could help in this sunset movement as many people could vote to remove bad laws, outmoded laws. Bill
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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