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The power to select

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  • josephson45r
    Polly, Don t you think that if governments were able to muster the resolve, garner the consensus, and effectively implement a moratorium on reproduction for an
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 26, 2010
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      Polly,

      Don't you think that if governments were able to muster the resolve, garner the consensus, and effectively implement a moratorium on reproduction for an entire generation, they should likewise be capable of policing a ban on pollutants, creating more comprehensive tests for genetic defects, and educating prospective parents? It seems unfair and futile to pursue the former without undertaking the latter. On one hand, we could permit the status quo until there remain only pockets of clean air, water, and unblemished children. Perhaps the meek will truly inherit the earth, what's left of it. On the other hand, our power (formerly potency) manifests in the life we create for ourselves and others. It is our nature to believe these are separate and the nature of power to have its way. Your proposal is not simply making a decision for children: they are children for a short while. Also, because most haven't had your experience, they will shrink from your proposal, however much sense it makes and however many problems it might remedy. Perhaps Nietzsche was more perceptive than I imagine, because I feel my power to decide has been suppressed, that it isn't my right to decide!

      Mary
    • tom
      Mary, The only law I recall being passed in recent years that I liked was the no call law passed early in this century.My guess it was buried in committtee
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 26, 2010
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        Mary,

        The only law I recall being passed in recent years that I liked was the "no call" law passed early in this century.My guess it was buried in committtee for a long time in deference to telesales special interests.Once it was up for vote, nobody could afford to vote against it. Laws are usually made for special interests, and sold to the masses through propaganda. Much freedoms were lost in the 20th century, as government expanded more and more.I'd prefer the government get the hell out of people's lives;but being in people's lives is a boon to the government employess who make good salaries, with good benefits, and excellent security and retirement benefits.

        Peace,
        Tom

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: josephson45r
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 9:32 AM
        Subject: [existlist] The power to select



        Polly,

        Don't you think that if governments were able to muster the resolve, garner the consensus, and effectively implement a moratorium on reproduction for an entire generation, they should likewise be capable of policing a ban on pollutants, creating more comprehensive tests for genetic defects, and educating prospective parents? It seems unfair and futile to pursue the former without undertaking the latter. On one hand, we could permit the status quo until there remain only pockets of clean air, water, and unblemished children. Perhaps the meek will truly inherit the earth, what's left of it. On the other hand, our power (formerly potency) manifests in the life we create for ourselves and others. It is our nature to believe these are separate and the nature of power to have its way. Your proposal is not simply making a decision for children: they are children for a short while. Also, because most haven't had your experience, they will shrink from your proposal, however much sense it makes and however many problems it might remedy. Perhaps Nietzsche was more perceptive than I imagine, because I feel my power to decide has been suppressed, that it isn't my right to decide!

        Mary





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • William
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 26, 2010
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
          >
          > Polly,
          >
          > Don't you think that if governments were able to muster the resolve, garner the consensus, and effectively implement a moratorium on reproduction for an entire generation, they should likewise be capable of policing a ban on pollutants, creating more comprehensive tests for genetic defects, and educating prospective parents? It seems unfair and futile to pursue the former without undertaking the latter. On one hand, we could permit the status quo until there remain only pockets of clean air, water, and unblemished children. Perhaps the meek will truly inherit the earth, what's left of it. On the other hand, our power (formerly potency) manifests in the life we create for ourselves and others. It is our nature to believe these are separate and the nature of power to have its way. Your proposal is not simply making a decision for children: they are children for a short while. Also, because most haven't had your experience, they will shrink from your proposal, however much sense it makes and however many problems it might remedy. Perhaps Nietzsche was more perceptive than I imagine, because I feel my power to decide has been suppressed, that it isn't my right to decide!
          >
          > Mary
          >
        • William
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 26, 2010
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            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "josephson45r" <josephson45r@...> wrote:
            >
            > Polly,
            >
            > Don't you think that if governments were able to muster the resolve, garner the consensus, and effectively implement a moratorium on reproduction for an entire generation, they should likewise be capable of policing a ban on pollutants, creating more comprehensive tests for genetic defects, and educating prospective parents? It seems unfair and futile to pursue the former without undertaking the latter. On one hand, we could permit the status quo until there remain only pockets of clean air, water, and unblemished children. Perhaps the meek will truly inherit the earth, what's left of it. On the other hand, our power (formerly potency) manifests in the life we create for ourselves and others. It is our nature to believe these are separate and the nature of power to have its way. Your proposal is not simply making a decision for children: they are children for a short while. Also, because most haven't had your experience, they will shrink from your proposal, however much sense it makes and however many problems it might remedy. Perhaps Nietzsche was more perceptive than I imagine, because I feel my power to decide has been suppressed, that it isn't my right to decide!
            >
            > Mary
            >
          • Herman
            HI Mary, ... I think any act or omission based in a narrow perception of self is always going to be unfair. ... I see the ideas of creating our own lives, yet
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 26, 2010
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              HI Mary,

              On 27 February 2010 02:32, josephson45r <josephson45r@...> wrote:
              > Polly,
              >
              > Don't you think that if governments were able to muster the resolve, garner the consensus, and effectively implement a moratorium on reproduction for an entire generation, they should likewise be capable of policing a ban on pollutants, creating more comprehensive tests for genetic defects, and educating prospective parents? It seems unfair and futile to pursue the >former without undertaking the latter.

              I think any act or omission based in a narrow perception of self is
              always going to be unfair.

              > On one hand, we could permit the status quo until there remain only pockets of clean air, water, and unblemished children. Perhaps the meek will truly inherit the earth, what's left of it. On the other hand, our power (formerly potency) manifests in the life we create for ourselves and others. It is our nature to believe these are separate and the nature of power to have its >way.

              I see the ideas of creating our own lives, yet being possessed of or
              by some nature, as being contradictory.

              > Your proposal is not simply making a decision for children: they are children for a short while. Also, because most haven't had your experience, they will shrink from your proposal, >however much sense it makes and however many problems it might remedy.

              Yes, I accept that.

              > Perhaps Nietzsche was more perceptive than I imagine, because I feel my power to decide has been suppressed, that it isn't my right to decide!
              >

              Do you think there is or ought to be a right to have a narrow
              perception of self?

              Polly





              > Mary
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!
              >
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              >
              >
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              >
            • tom
              Mary, The only law I recall being passed in recent years that I liked was the no call law passed early in this century.My guess it was buried in committtee
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 26, 2010
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                Mary,

                The only law I recall being passed in recent years that I liked was the "no call" law passed early in this century.My guess it was buried in committtee for a long time in deference to telesales special interests.Once it was up for vote, nobody could afford to vote against it. Laws are usually made for special interests, and sold to the masses through propaganda. Much freedoms were lost in the 20th century, as government expanded more and more.I'd prefer the government get the hell out of people's lives;but being in people's lives is a boon to the government employess who make good salaries, with good benefits, and excellent security and retirement benefits.

                Peace,
                Tom
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: josephson45r
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 9:32 AM
                Subject: [existlist] The power to select



                Polly,

                Don't you think that if governments were able to muster the resolve, garner the consensus, and effectively implement a moratorium on reproduction for an entire generation, they should likewise be capable of policing a ban on pollutants, creating more comprehensive tests for genetic defects, and educating prospective parents? It seems unfair and futile to pursue the former without undertaking the latter. On one hand, we could permit the status quo until there remain only pockets of clean air, water, and unblemished children. Perhaps the meek will truly inherit the earth, what's left of it. On the other hand, our power (formerly potency) manifests in the life we create for ourselves and others. It is our nature to believe these are separate and the nature of power to have its way. Your proposal is not simply making a decision for children: they are children for a short while. Also, because most haven't had your experience, they will shrink from your proposal, however much sense it makes and however many problems it might remedy. Perhaps Nietzsche was more perceptive than I imagine, because I feel my power to decide has been suppressed, that it isn't my right to decide!

                Mary





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mary
                Polly, It seems our ability to create (in a Nietzchean, Camusian, or Sartrean sense) derives from genetic determinants and various environmental influences
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 27, 2010
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                  Polly,

                  It seems our ability to create (in a Nietzchean, Camusian, or Sartrean sense) derives from genetic determinants and various environmental influences (Darwin, Mendel, Crick & Watson).

                  I see struggle, conflict, and cooperation, as natural.

                  How does one shape a life without will and power? What is of existential import is whether one is willing or even capable of expanding one's perception of self. My own results are mixed.

                  Mary
                • William
                  If anyone at this site thinks they have power to select at this battered old wreck they are as deluded as their grandiose verbage displays them. I think we
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 27, 2010
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                    If anyone at this site thinks they have power to select at this battered old wreck they are as deluded as their grandiose verbage displays them. I think we should see if the twittering hoarde can multi task. See what is being said of you at Primordial Quest and Neoex. I think Mary has access to both sites and correctness will not be served at either veniue.
                    The world is changing ,literally beneath our feet while you clods pretend your psudoacedemic sputterings are relevant or even interesting. Smell the coffie boys and girls, the earthquake is here. Alone
                  • Herman
                    Hi Mary, ... That s a good way of putting it. ... My view is that will and power are identical with craving, and that they precede the realisation of one s
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 1, 2010
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                      Hi Mary,

                      On 28 February 2010 03:59, Mary <josephson45r@...> wrote:
                      > Polly,
                      >
                      > It seems our ability to create (in a Nietzchean, Camusian, or Sartrean sense) derives from genetic determinants and various environmental influences (Darwin, Mendel, Crick & Watson).
                      >
                      > I see struggle, conflict, and cooperation, as natural.
                      >

                      That's a good way of putting it.

                      > How does one shape a life without will and power?

                      My view is that will and power are identical with craving, and that
                      they precede the realisation of one's life. In other words, it is not
                      I that wills or craves, but willing and craving that realises I.

                      >What is of existential import is whether one is willing or even capable of expanding one's perception of self.

                      And what if every perception of self turns out unsatisfactory?

                      > My own results are mixed.
                      >

                      Yes, mine too. I am becoming convinced that a satisfactory view of my
                      self is structurally impossible.

                      These words sum it up well:

                      To be, or not to be: that is the question:
                      Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
                      The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
                      Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
                      And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
                      No more; and by a sleep to say we end
                      The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
                      That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
                      Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
                      To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
                      For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
                      When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
                      Must give us pause:


                      Polly, who is not feeling morbid
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