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Re: Is education the answer?

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  • Jim
    Hi Polly, You write: Yes, you did misunderstand me. And I cannot see that you have re-addressed what I wrote. You have left intact a series of swipes at a
    Message 1 of 88 , Feb 22, 2010
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      Hi Polly,

      You write:

      "Yes, you did misunderstand me.

      And I cannot see that you have re-addressed what I wrote. You have left intact a series of swipes at a straw man of your own making. Is that intentional? If it is, then I doubt you are discussing in good faith. If it isn't, then I am sorry for having drawn the wrong conclusion."

      As you have made an apology of sorts (although an apology that starts with an `if' statement is not an unqualified apology), I shall attempt to clarify my objections to your advocacy of compulsory sterilisation for all.

      I am not sure which of my criticisms you have in mind when you talk of "a series of swipes at a straw man of your own making".

      The only misunderstanding of your position, and my consequent misdirected criticism, that I am aware of was my interpretation that your `solution' involved the removal of the responsibility of bring up children by private individuals. I admitted in my post 50998 that I had misunderstood you on this point. I thereby implied that my criticism of your position in that section of my post was retracted.

      So, to repeat, I retract my criticism of your position as put forward by me in the first half of my post 50987.

      As I say, I am not aware of any of my other criticisms of your position being directed at `straw men' positions. However, if you highlight such passages from my various posts to you, I will re-evaluate my words and arguments.

      If there are other such instances, I would say in mitigation that you have been remarkably reluctant to spell out exactly why you advocate compulsory sterilisation for all, and exactly how this policy would be carried out in practice.

      Why do you advocate compulsory sterilisation for all? Initially your reason seemed to be over-population. This is the issue Mary and I have been discussing on and off for a couple of weeks now. But you also explicitly said the problem was men: male aggression, male violence, male domination and heterosexual penetrative sex which amounted to rape in all patriarchal societies.

      When you mentioned that, I wondered if your solution did not just involve sterilisation, but also involved male genital mutilation. Despite many promptings, you still have not said unequivocally if the sterilisation of all babies was meant to rule out the possibility of heterosexual penetrative sex or not.

      However in recent posts of yours, a third reason for compulsory sterilisation for all has emerged: your desire to eliminate genetically inherited `diseases', `conditions' or `disorders'. This reason was completely lacking from your earlier posts on this topic.

      So, let me ask again – so that I do not continue to attack straw men – what reason or reasons do you have for your advocacy of compulsory sterilisation for all: (1) over-population? (2) male aggressiveness, etc. (3) to screen out genetic diseases/conditions/disorders?

      And if (3), what `diseases' do you wish to screen out? Down's syndrome? Spina-bifida? Cystic fibrosis? Breast cancer? Schizophrenia? Male aggressiveness?

      Secondly, as to the practicalities of how you would implement your policy. Is your idea that sterilised adults can choose to adopt fertilised eggs? – Their own or other peoples?

      Is the idea that human eggs are fertilised in the laboratory and then screened for acceptance or rejection based on their dna codes?

      Is the idea then that couples and/or single people can apply to adopt a fertilised egg? Is the idea then that a woman would have the egg implanted in her?

      Is this just for heterosexual couples or could gay couples and/or single people adopt eggs?

      Please note I offer no criticism of your `solution' in this post. I am merely trying to understand what you are advocating, so I can avoid criticising any more straw men.

      Jim
    • Jim
      Hi Polly, You write: Yes, you did misunderstand me. And I cannot see that you have re-addressed what I wrote. You have left intact a series of swipes at a
      Message 88 of 88 , Feb 22, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Polly,

        You write:

        "Yes, you did misunderstand me.

        And I cannot see that you have re-addressed what I wrote. You have left intact a series of swipes at a straw man of your own making. Is that intentional? If it is, then I doubt you are discussing in good faith. If it isn't, then I am sorry for having drawn the wrong conclusion."

        As you have made an apology of sorts (although an apology that starts with an `if' statement is not an unqualified apology), I shall attempt to clarify my objections to your advocacy of compulsory sterilisation for all.

        I am not sure which of my criticisms you have in mind when you talk of "a series of swipes at a straw man of your own making".

        The only misunderstanding of your position, and my consequent misdirected criticism, that I am aware of was my interpretation that your `solution' involved the removal of the responsibility of bring up children by private individuals. I admitted in my post 50998 that I had misunderstood you on this point. I thereby implied that my criticism of your position in that section of my post was retracted.

        So, to repeat, I retract my criticism of your position as put forward by me in the first half of my post 50987.

        As I say, I am not aware of any of my other criticisms of your position being directed at `straw men' positions. However, if you highlight such passages from my various posts to you, I will re-evaluate my words and arguments.

        If there are other such instances, I would say in mitigation that you have been remarkably reluctant to spell out exactly why you advocate compulsory sterilisation for all, and exactly how this policy would be carried out in practice.

        Why do you advocate compulsory sterilisation for all? Initially your reason seemed to be over-population. This is the issue Mary and I have been discussing on and off for a couple of weeks now. But you also explicitly said the problem was men: male aggression, male violence, male domination and heterosexual penetrative sex which amounted to rape in all patriarchal societies.

        When you mentioned that, I wondered if your solution did not just involve sterilisation, but also involved male genital mutilation. Despite many promptings, you still have not said unequivocally if the sterilisation of all babies was meant to rule out the possibility of heterosexual penetrative sex or not.

        However in recent posts of yours, a third reason for compulsory sterilisation for all has emerged: your desire to eliminate genetically inherited `diseases', `conditions' or `disorders'. This reason was completely lacking from your earlier posts on this topic.

        So, let me ask again – so that I do not continue to attack straw men – what reason or reasons do you have for your advocacy of compulsory sterilisation for all: (1) over-population? (2) male aggressiveness, etc. (3) to screen out genetic diseases/conditions/disorders?

        And if (3), what `diseases' do you wish to screen out? Down's syndrome? Spina-bifida? Cystic fibrosis? Breast cancer? Schizophrenia? Male aggressiveness?

        Secondly, as to the practicalities of how you would implement your policy. Is your idea that sterilised adults can choose to adopt fertilised eggs? – Their own or other peoples?

        Is the idea that human eggs are fertilised in the laboratory and then screened for acceptance or rejection based on their dna codes?

        Is the idea then that couples and/or single people can apply to adopt a fertilised egg? Is the idea then that a woman would have the egg implanted in her?

        Is this just for heterosexual couples or could gay couples and/or single people adopt eggs?

        Please note I offer no criticism of your `solution' in this post. I am merely trying to understand what you are advocating, so I can avoid criticising any more straw men.

        Jim
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