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winter

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  • james tan
    eduard, well, the world still goes round. we cast our vote by our money. let it be. beauty is in the eyes of the beholders, so if some of these write the way
    Message 1 of 58 , Dec 5, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      eduard,

      well, the world still goes round. we cast our vote by our money. let it be.
      'beauty' is in the eyes of the beholders, so if some of these write the way
      they write, you may like to 'vote' by not buying it. but there may be others
      who like it for precisely the way you dislike it.

      it's pretty cold at this time of the year, huh? well, in my country
      (singapore...you know this place?) it is 'summer' all year long, 30c is the
      average temperature, and only occasional rain when it comes to this period
      (december). went to paris to backpack once around this period; gee, your
      kind of temperature (6c) is really torturing (at least for me). but there is
      a certain beauty to the landscape: melancholic beauty with its bleak sky,
      cold drizzling rain drops, and a certain forlorn-ness. the leaves are mostly
      gone, leaving behind a skeletal tree structure standing alone, isolated and
      it seems, deserted. and then you couldn't help feeling quite forlorn
      yourself. everybody is not interested in everybody else, all rushing to
      their own destination with such single mindedness. most of the streets are
      wet most of the time, and you look at the reflection on it, and then you got
      into the sort of mood to ask "who am i? what am i? where was i before i was
      born, and where will i be going when i die....?" no wonder the french love
      existential themes.

      james.





      From: "Eduard Alf" <yeoman@...>
      Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: The nihilation of the in-itself into the
      for-itself
      Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:43:28 -0500

      james,

      I know what you mean. There are a lot of those,
      if-you-don't-get-it-its-not-for-you types. And perhaps it is a reflection
      of their own chosen isolation. It is unfortunate that they are the resource
      for knowledge, otherwise I would simply say forget it. That step for
      clarity does not take much more effort. Our role here is build bridges for
      those who will succeed us. To just throw up a line and leave to the fortune
      of others to cross the gap, only shows a certain selfish egoism.

      It was 6c this morning. In the first week of December! It is perhaps due
      to the amount of cloud. Raining for the past several days, and I have not
      been able to do much in the yard. Oh well, the good side is that you don't
      have to shovel rain.

      eduard
      -----Original Message-----
      From: james tan [mailto:tyjfk@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:56 PM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: The nihilation of the in-itself into the
      for-itself



      eduard,

      I know what you mean. referring to what you said, I do remember the same
      frustration with some maths texts. some authors perhaps assume too much
      of
      your 'basics' and rarely give many examples. they assume a certain level
      of
      sophistication and proficiency, they more or less give you finished
      results,
      they presuppose a minimal familiarity (and their standards of 'minimal'
      may
      not be exactly what you have in mind). some of these books are not
      self-explanatory. well, you curse under your breath, but then you know
      they
      are very established and well qualified professional in their fields. try
      reading gauss' book on number theory; his faint and casual leap of
      intuition
      takes a lesser mortal a few hours or days to grasp. you know one of his
      many
      theorem is true, he thought it too obvious to bother to state the proof,
      but
      you struggle like cow to derive it - even your own lecturer himself give
      a
      cold sweat when asked for the derivation. but you don't question gauss or
      doubt his ability; after all, it took him only a few hours to solve a
      mathematical problem what centuries of mathematicians before him could
      not
      solve. but that you mentioned engineering, I don't find it surprising
      that
      you quoted edison and testla. they are more in the mould of engineering
      and
      experimental scientist. a theoretical orientation would be people like
      maxwell, einstein, dirac, pauli (all with very strong mathematical
      background; pauli wrote a very mathematical rendering of relativity
      theory
      when he was only 17, a work praised by einstein himself, but as usual for
      such authors, they presumed so much mathematical sophistication in
      readers).
      edison type of scientist is marked more by experimental skills and
      patience,
      whereas pauli type seems to me sheer inborn cleverness (you can't
      compensate
      it by patience or learning skills if you don't aleady have that innate
      ability; there is a trend in my country educational system teaching
      creative
      teaching - I find it pretty ironical that something creative can be
      taught
      as if there is a fixed formula - and those teachers themselves are not
      very
      creative it seems to me). but one thing is common: these 'high calibre'
      writers never make apology in the way they present their ideas; they may
      think along the line: "if you can't understand it, then maybe it is not
      for
      you". they do not bother to "take that little extra step for clarity",
      unquote. some examples will definitely help, but again, they assume it is
      not necessary as it is already clear enough. the reason we don't find it
      that clear may hint on our intellect's limitations.:)

      cheers,
      james.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Bill Harris
      Ya, there may be more to it but emotion is certainly involved when you are up against it with something as big as Great Britain. Bill ... From:
      Message 58 of 58 , Dec 11, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Ya, there may be more to it but emotion is certainly involved when you are
        up against it with something as big as Great Britain. Bill
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "clickhereforinsignificance" <livewild@...>
        To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 1:37 PM
        Subject: [existlist] Re: Morals and chemicals


        > Hey Bill,
        >
        > Yeah maybe I'm leading the witness, but would it be fair to switch
        > the words 'emotions' with 'soul'? (since we both agree soul is an
        > imaginary concept)
        >
        > i.e. "Those are the times that try mens emotions."
        >
        > Stuck-On-You
        >
        > -----------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In existlist@y..., "clickhereforinsignificance" <livewild@h...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Bill,
        > >
        > > Just checking on your stance. I agree it does have a poetic
        > flare
        > > to it.
        > >
        > > When-My-Blue-Moon-Turns-to-Gold-Again
        > >
        > > --------------------------------
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In existlist@y..., "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@n...> wrote:
        > > > Soul, does not exist but it sounds good in the quote. Bill
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: "clickhereforinsignificance" <livewild@h...>
        > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 1:08 PM
        > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Morals and chemicals
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > I dunno,
        > > > >
        > > > > kinda sounds elitest to me. I don't think any man should be
        > told
        > > what
        > > > > they are and are not capable of especially in matters of
        > > > > contemplating their existence in the universe.
        > > > >
        > > > > Philosophers and lawmakers are two different creatures. One
        > > deals
        > > > > within the confines of an arbitrary what is currently morally
        > > > > economical, the other deals more with thoughts (not necessarily
        > > > > action) of what can be or what should be.
        > > > >
        > > > > What's a soul?
        > > > >
        > > > > Follow-That-Dream
        > > > >
        > > > > ------------------------------------
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In existlist@y..., "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@n...> wrote:
        > > > > > Clickhere I think exist philosophy allows us to create our own
        > > > > framework of
        > > > > > ethics. It is not for uneducated or inexperienced people.
        > > Should
        > > > > ones
        > > > > > philosophy run counter to the law then hard, and practical
        > > > > decisions must be
        > > > > > made. Those are the times that try mens souls. Bill
        > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > From: "clickhereforinsignificance" <livewild@h...>
        > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:53 AM
        > > > > > Subject: [existlist] Morals and chemicals
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > << In all I think what you want is gamesmanship with some
        > > > > > > seasoning. >>
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Well put Bill, but there is far more to this arguement.
        > I
        > > am
        > > > > often
        > > > > > > guilty of letting statements go by unqualified since it
        > takes
        > > an
        > > > > > > inordinate amount of time to do and because I'm interested
        > in
        > > the
        > > > > > > responses.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > When I argue something like emotions are the center of
        > > moral
        > > > > > > activity (to me) this is not the same as arguing whether
        > > Neitszche
        > > > > > > secretly wanted to believe in G~d.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > One subject deals with the desires of an individual and
        > is
        > > not
        > > > > > > proof or disproof of G~d. When I play with emotions (my own
        > or
        > > > > > > others) it is usually an underlying theme within any
        > argument
        > > I
        > > > > make.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Morals are the creation of emotion and they in turn
        > > chemical
        > > > > > > activity prompted by an undesirable environmental state
        > (and
        > > maybe
        > > > > > > some genetic predisposition).
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > It's so simple to say but the psychological
        > consequences
        > > of
        > > > > > > accepting such a broad statement are complex to say the
        > > least. I
        > > > > find
        > > > > > > most people want to throw out the idea like moldy cheese
        > > (which of
        > > > > > > course they have every right to). But I too have the right
        > to
        > > > > believe
        > > > > > > whatever 'illusion' I want to believe.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > My personal experience has been when you really deep
        > down
        > > > > believe
        > > > > > > such a 'truth', it alters aspects of one's sense of judgment
        > > > > towards
        > > > > > > others and towards oneself. My close friends are actually
        > > > > starting to
        > > > > > > buy into this mentality are far less judgmental and
        > openminded
        > > > > > > individuals than they used to be. Perhaps I'll start a
        > cult?
        > > Naw.
        > > > > I'd
        > > > > > > look terrible in bedsheets. Besides I don't think I'm the
        > > only one
        > > > > > > that thinks this even though I perhaps explore the concept
        > > more
        > > > > than
        > > > > > > most.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Whether people verbally agree with me or not, I'm just
        > > sharing
        > > > > > > what I see as obvious on innumerable fronts... through a
        > > method of
        > > > > > > demonstration I find highly effective. Hey please show me
        > I'm
        > > > > wrong
        > > > > > > or suggest another method that hits home. I'm all ears. I
        > > used to
        > > > > try
        > > > > > > saying it all stale and clinically, unfortunately it didn't
        > > seem
        > > > > to
        > > > > > > work too well. Generating those emotions tends to highlight
        > > the
        > > > > point
        > > > > > > when the enivitable judgments and morality assessments are
        > > made.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > The harder the person fights the more I stab at their
        > > innards.
        > > > > I
        > > > > > > even tell them what I'm doing. I sometimes feel bad, when I
        > > think
        > > > > > > perhaps I'm doing something that might make someone
        > unhappy,
        > > but I
        > > > > > > try to limit the intensity to those that are harshest
        > critics
        > > of
        > > > > > > others and maybe a bias towards those that are the greatest
        > > > > critics
        > > > > > > of moi. (By no means does this mean I am immune to my own
        > > humanity
        > > > > > > either.... or not guilty of the same stupidity)
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > It's only an argument and another opinion, but it is
        > > > > fundamental
        > > > > > > to much I believe about what and why things happen in the
        > > world.
        > > > > Or
        > > > > > > maybe I'm just obsessed with something I shouldn't be, but
        > > every
        > > > > > > action I do with someone else, seems to have some sort of
        > > morality
        > > > > > > attached to it. Even excluding myself from participating
        > has a
        > > > > > > ethical consequence. I'm just curious to understand what
        > > morality
        > > > > and
        > > > > > > ethics are about so that I might do the 'right' thing.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > I'm-Yours
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In existlist@y..., "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@n...> wrote:
        > > > > > > > Clickhere,Emotion in public? Weakness? bravery?I think
        > > nothing
        > > > > > > could be more
        > > > > > > > volatile. Emotion begets emotion and it is a
        > > stimulus/response
        > > > > > > situation. As
        > > > > > > > a planned action it is theatre and thus is used for
        > result.
        > > As
        > > > > pure
        > > > > > > reaction
        > > > > > > > it is a starting point for powerful counterreactions
        > which
        > > are
        > > > > > > beyond
        > > > > > > > control. I think using emotion to accent a thought train
        > is
        > > good
        > > > > > > > interpersonal relations. Women have a natural talent for
        > > this,
        > > > > it
        > > > > > > has
        > > > > > > > evolved to allow them to communicate more effectively. I
        > > think
        > > > > it
        > > > > > > might be
        > > > > > > > of use to segregrate the major emotional responses from
        > the
        > > more
        > > > > > > subtle
        > > > > > > > hints of mood. Running away or attacking are the original
        > > > > actions
        > > > > > > prompted
        > > > > > > > by our emotions, so I suppose you do not favor a return
        > to
        > > that
        > > > > > > level of
        > > > > > > > relationship. In all I think what you want is
        > gamesmanship
        > > with
        > > > > some
        > > > > > > > seasoning. Bill
        > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > > > From: "clickhereforinsignificance" <livewild@h...>
        > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:16 PM
        > > > > > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Moral temperature in Singapore
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Bill,
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I realize this was not addressed to me but it seems to
        > be
        > > a
        > > > > theme
        > > > > > > > > that occasionally pops up between myself, Eduard and
        > > BookDoc
        > > > > as
        > > > > > > well.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Pride vs. substance
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Our society has taken a stance that if it deals with
        > > > > individual
        > > > > > > > > feelings, not some general fact, the topic in question
        > > loses
        > > > > > > value.
        > > > > > > > > In an Existentialist world there can be no other way
        > > correct?
        > > > > > > This is
        > > > > > > > > one reason I believe in much of the 'civilized' world
        > we
        > > have
        > > > > lost
        > > > > > > > > our sense of community. Feelings are not important.
        > I'll
        > > even
        > > > > go
        > > > > > > > > further... public feelings are viewed as weakness and
        > even
        > > > > > > worst...
        > > > > > > > > detested because they are 'irrational'.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Well, if this stance that everyone is so keen on is
        > so
        > > > > correct,
        > > > > > > > > than why exactly are there so many depressed people
        > > around?
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I'll tell you why.....we are being bombarded by
        > > > > information and
        > > > > > > > > choices that we do not have the necessary knowledge to
        > > > > properly
        > > > > > > make
        > > > > > > > > decisions on. Meanwhile we are expected to make
        > them....
        > > have
        > > > > an
        > > > > > > > > informed opinion... and display how in 'control' we are.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > At the exact same time when we most need to express
        > our
        > > > > > > > > emotions... we are told they are irrelevant, that we
        > are
        > > weak
        > > > > for
        > > > > > > > > having them, and to bottle them up.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Pardon me. Who exactly is the genius who decided
        > this
        > > for
        > > > > me?
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I can understand when emotions seem to interfere
        > with a
        > > > > > > > > discussion. However I believe the reality is, emotions
        > are
        > > > > part of
        > > > > > > > > every discussion and every life. They should be
        > > addressed....
        > > > > not
        > > > > > > > > hidden. Having pride or anger (or whatever) is not
        > wrong,
        > > it
        > > > > is
        > > > > > > part
        > > > > > > > > of what makes us human.... not resolving and discussing
        > > those
        > > > > > > issues
        > > > > > > > > is. My personal experience has shown me releasing those
        > > > > emotions
        > > > > > > is
        > > > > > > > > key to happiness in as pressured and confusing an
        > > environment
        > > > > like
        > > > > > > > > ours. I'm not saying to grab a sledgehammer and start
        > > pounding
        > > > > > > away
        > > > > > > > > at the irritation, but feel free to let go sometimes.
        > > Whether
        > > > > > > one's
        > > > > > > > > anger is justified or not is unimportant... apologize
        > > > > afterwards
        > > > > > > > > anyways. The release of this primal energy is important.
        > > > > > > Eventually
        > > > > > > > > you'll find the need to release tends to dissipate.
        > > > > Honestly the
        > > > > > > > > last time I got angry? Years ago.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > But perhaps I am just irrational, don't care and am
        > > > > > > egomaniacal
        > > > > > > > > like BookDoc and Eduard suggest.... at least I'm happy
        > in
        > > my
        > > > > > > > > royality/commoner mentality.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I-Feel-So-Bad
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > --- In existlist@y..., "Bill Harris" <bhvwd@n...> wrote:
        > > > > > > > > > Dear Pink Hippo, You are a seeker, so am I. I am
        > further
        > > > > down my
        > > > > > > > > road and
        > > > > > > > > > have found a good deal of what I sought. I think I
        > might
        > > > > have
        > > > > > > > > gotten result
        > > > > > > > > > sooner had I avoided some conflicts which were more
        > > about
        > > > > pride
        > > > > > > than
        > > > > > > > > > substance. Bill
        > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > > > > > From: "Ryan Dewald" <rdewald@c...>
        > > > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:29 AM
        > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Moral temperature in
        > > Singapore
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > Hey Bill,
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > I can't recall whether I've called myself an
        > anarchist
        > > > > here or
        > > > > > > > > just talked
        > > > > > > > > > > about the principle. In the end, to describe
        > myself,
        > > I'd
        > > > > > > rather
        > > > > > > > > quote
        > > > > > > > > > Walt
        > > > > > > > > > > Whitman, "I am large, I contain multitudes."
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, call me a pink hippo or what have you. I
        > don't
        > > like
        > > > > > > > > mindless
        > > > > > > > > > > following of rules and I don't trust one human to
        > have
        > > > > power
        > > > > > > over
        > > > > > > > > another.
        > > > > > > > > > > That's where I'd say my interests and the interests
        > of
        > > > > > > anarchists
        > > > > > > > > blend.
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > Ryan
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill Harris [mailto:bhvwd@n...]
        > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 10:07 AM
        > > > > > > > > > > To: existlist@y...
        > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Moral temperature in
        > > > > Singapore
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > Ryan, I am presently in contact with an individual
        > > who
        > > > > is a
        > > > > > > > > committed
        > > > > > > > > > > anarcist. [To you government boys out there you are
        > > quite
        > > > > > > aware
        > > > > > > > > or this
        > > > > > > > > > > person already.] I do not see he and thee in at all
        > > the
        > > > > same
        > > > > > > > > group. It is
        > > > > > > > > > > not just violence which might be the contrast it is
        > > the
        > > > > > > > > commitment to
        > > > > > > > > > > reduction of the present order regardless of
        > personal
        > > > > loss.
        > > > > > > There
        > > > > > > > > is also
        > > > > > > > > > a
        > > > > > > > > > > sense of embittered hopelesness to this person
        > that
        > > I do
        > > > > not
        > > > > > > > > sense in
        > > > > > > > > > your
        > > > > > > > > > > posts. At a third level I have had conversation
        > with
        > > > > > > > > violent ,radical
        > > > > > > > > > > anarcists. Had they not pinned a cause on their
        > chests
        > > > > they
        > > > > > > > > would have
        > > > > > > > > > been
        > > > > > > > > > > nothing but homocidal psychopaths. I see you as a
        > > > > political
        > > > > > > > > activist, not
        > > > > > > > > > an
        > > > > > > > > > > anarcist, yet even if you wish to be referred to as
        > a
        > > pink
        > > > > > > hippo,
        > > > > > > > > I will
        > > > > > > > > > be
        > > > > > > > > > > glad to accommidate. Bill
        > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > > > > > > From: "Ryan Dewald" <rdewald@c...>
        > > > > > > > > > > To: <existlist@y...>
        > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 4:06 PM
        > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [existlist] Re: Moral temperature in
        > > > > Singapore
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > <<<Why is it every time I argue something
        > > somebody
        > > > > > > calls
        > > > > > > > > me Mr? I
        > > > > > > > > > > > suppose I should be flattered since it's probably
        > > the
        > > > > > > greatest
        > > > > > > > > amount
        > > > > > > > > > > > of respect I'll ever get.>>>
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > I dunno, maybe because I like your last name.
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > <<<Comparing James to a brown shirt is
        > > excessive
        > > > > and
        > > > > > > makes
        > > > > > > > > a
        > > > > > > > > > > > mockery of the word Nazi. Use it enough times and
        > > then
        > > > > > > people
        > > > > > > > > forget
        > > > > > > > > > > > what it means to the world. >>>
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > Point taken
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > <<< What can I say... but I agree. I enjoy my
        > > > > freedoms
        > > > > > > to
        > > > > > > > > much to
        > > > > > > > > > > > say otherwise. However, it James (or anyone else
        > for
        > > > > that
        > > > > > > > > matter)
        > > > > > > > > > > > wants to live under a king, a strict government,
        > > under
        > > > > holy
        > > > > > > > > scripture
        > > > > > > > > > > > or whatever... they to have a right to choose. As
        > an
        > > > > > > anarchist I
        > > > > > > > > > > > would think you can see this perspective.>>>
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > Yep. It's everyone's call to do so. But the
        > anemic
        > > > > > > rationale
        > > > > > > > > often put
        > > > > > > > > > > > forth still rankles me. Plus, often the
        > acquiesence
        > > > > > > winds up
        > > > > > > > > forcing
        > > > > > > > > > > > those that don't want to be in that situation
        > into
        > > it
        > > > > even
        > > > > > > more.
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > <<< I agree. Actually westerners are
        > > probably far
        > > > > > > less
        > > > > > > > > judgmental
        > > > > > > > > > > > than other cultures. But because we have so many
        > > > > freedoms...
        > > > > > > > > it's so
        > > > > > > > > > > > much more obviously hypocritical when we do it.>>>
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > hmmm maybe. I'll have to think on that some more.
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > > Ryan
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > >
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