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Re:[existlist]Re:The Practice of Presence

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  • tom
    Mary, Of course, neither of us can be sure of the future, so I can t tell you unequivocally what the result of a US pullout of Afghanistan would be. However, I
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 5, 2009
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      Mary,

      Of course, neither of us can be sure of the future, so I can't tell you unequivocally what the result of a US pullout of Afghanistan would be. However, I think a bit of study puts a lot of doubts about the US entrance to various wars that the US was involved in since the Spanish American War. We learned in our history classes the supposed reasons for the US entrance into these wars. However, I suspect people taking history classes in any nation tend to learn the version that makes their nation appear to be only defending themselves.When the Holy Roman Empire overran pagan peoples, the citizens of the Holy Roman Empire were told they were saving their souls etc. As I stated in the previous post, it is interesting to me that the architects of the US mideast invasions, the Bush administration was heavily allied with traditional values forces in the US and yet in regard to the mideast were proponents of modernism etc. Comparing Britan's appeasement of Hitler to a policy of nonintervention by the US in the mideast to me is misleading because Germany had the possibility of defeating the UK, but the Taliban or Alchida has less chance of defeating the US than you have of defeating the current heavy weight boxing champion of the world. If anything, recent US aggression in the mideast has probably resulted in more recruits to Al Quada and the Taliban. I have heard that it is an Islamic principle that any males have a duty to revenge harm done to their family members. I have read in two places that CNN has had a sugar coated version of Afghanistan news coverage for US audiences, and a more realistic one for viewers in other nations. I believe that the last 60 years or so show us that even though a superpowewr can easily invade a third world country, succesful occupation of these places is pretty much impossible. This was true for both the French and later the US in Vietnam, the USSR and later the US in Afghanistan, and the US in Iraq. I believe the main reason for this is that to a large extent the insurgents have the support of the people. Whither in a small village in Afghanistan or Iraq, or in a rural town in the USA, everybody to a large extent knows everybody and what they are doing. If the natives were strongly on the side of the US, it would be easy to find who the insurgents are. You say I talk of percentages, whereas you talk of how individual lives are affected. I suspect the percentages of Iraqis who favored killing invading Americans is a reflection of how hundreds of thousands of lives were affected or in many cases terminated because of the US invasion. I stated that surveys have found 1/4 of Iraqis say that the invasion has resulted in the deaths of some members of their households. If you include family members like cousins, nephews,nieces etc. as well as friends the majority of Iraqis have lost loved ones from the invasion and occupation.I have a friend of mine that was in Vietnam. He told me there was only one person he knew for sure he killed over there. He said often there would be an attack, and they would shoot at guerellas and in the morning there would be dead bodies, but it was impossible to tell if you or one of your fellow soldiers killed them. One time as they invaded a village, a native woman with a long knife came at my friend and he shot her to death.

      General Smedley Butler won two two medals of honor for his heroism, and was the most decorated man in Marine history. However, he retired at 50 and spent the remaining years of his life speakinbg for peace and explaining how citizens are misled into wars to make big bucks for special interests. He wrote a book, War is a Racket, which is very short and is available free online. Here is a an excerpt.

      Mary,

      Of course, neither of us can be sure of the future, so I can't tell you unequivocally what the result of a US pullout of Afghanistan would be. However, I think a bit of study puts a lot of doubts about the US entrance to various wars that the US was involved in since the Spanish American War. We learned in our history classes the supposed reasons for the US entrance into these wars. However, I suspect people taking history classes in any nation tend to learn the version that makes their nation appear to be only defending themselves.When the Holy Roman Empire overran pagan peoples, the citizens of the Holy Roman Empire were told they were saving their souls etc. As I stated in the previous post, it is interesting to me that the architects of the US mideast invasions, the Bush administration was heavily allied with traditional values forces in the US and yet in regard to the mideast were proponents of modernism etc. Comparing Britan's appeasement of Hitler to a policy of nonintervention by the US in the mideast to me is misleading because Germany had the possibility of defeating the UK, but the Taliban or Alchida has less chance of defeating the US than you have of defeating the current heavy weight boxing champion of the world. If anything, recent US aggression in the mideast has probably resulted in more recruits to Al Quada and the Taliban. I have heard that it is an Islamic principle that any males have a duty to revenge harm done to their family members. I have read in two places that CNN has had a sugar coated version of Afghanistan news coverage for US audiences, and a more realistic one for viewers in other nations. I believe that the last 60 years or so show us that even though a superpowewr can easily invade a third world country, succesful occupation of these places is pretty much impossible. This was true for both the French and later the US in Vietnam, the USSR and later the US in Afghanistan, and the US in Iraq. I believe the main reason for this is that to a large extent the insurgents have the support of the people. Whither in a small village in Afghanistan or Iraq, or in a rural town in the USA, everybody to a large extent knows everybody and what they are doing. If the natives were strongly on the side of the US, it would be easy to find who the insurgents are. You say I talk of percentages, whereas you talk of how individual lives are affected. I suspect the percentages of Iraqis who favored killing invading Americans is a reflection of how hundreds of thousands of lives were affected or in many cases terminated because of the US invasion. I stated that surveys have found 1/4 of Iraqis say that the invasion has resulted in the deaths of some members of their households. If you include family members like cousins, nephews,nieces etc. as well as friends the majority of Iraqis have lost loved ones from the invasion and occupation.I have a friend of mine that was in Vietnam. He told me there was only one person he knew for sure he killed over there. He said often there would be an attack, and they would shoot at guerellas and in the morning there would be dead bodies, but it was impossible to tell if you or one of your fellow soldiers killed them. One time as they invaded a village, a native woman with a long knife came at my friend and he shot her to death.

      General Smedley Butler won two two medals of honor for his heroism, and was the most decorated man in Marine history. However, he retired at 50 and spent the remaining years of his life speakinbg for peace and explaining how citizens are misled into wars to make big bucks for special interests. He wrote a book, War is a Racket, which is very short and is available free online. Here is a an excerpt.
      Mary,

      Of course, neither of us can be sure of the future, so I can't tell you unequivocally what the result of a US pullout of Afghanistan would be. However, I think a bit of study puts a lot of doubts about the US entrance to various wars that the US was involved in since the Spanish American War. We learned in our history classes the supposed reasons for the US entrance into these wars. However, I suspect people taking history classes in any nation tend to learn the version that makes their nation appear to be only defending themselves.When the Holy Roman Empire overran pagan peoples, the citizens of the Holy Roman Empire were told they were saving their souls etc. As I stated in the previous post, it is interesting to me that the architects of the US mideast invasions, the Bush administration was heavily allied with traditional values forces in the US and yet in regard to the mideast were proponents of modernism etc. Comparing Britan's appeasement of Hitler to a policy of nonintervention by the US in the mideast to me is misleading because Germany had the possibility of defeating the UK, but the Taliban or Alchida has less chance of defeating the US than you have of defeating the current heavy weight boxing champion of the world. If anything, recent US aggression in the mideast has probably resulted in more recruits to Al Quada and the Taliban. I have heard that it is an Islamic principle that any males have a duty to revenge harm done to their family members. I have read in two places that CNN has had a sugar coated version of Afghanistan news coverage for US audiences, and a more realistic one for viewers in other nations. I believe that the last 60 years or so show us that even though a superpowewr can easily invade a third world country, succesful occupation of these places is pretty much impossible. This was true for both the French and later the US in Vietnam, the USSR and later the US in Afghanistan, and the US in Iraq. I believe the main reason for this is that to a large extent the insurgents have the support of the people. Whither in a small village in Afghanistan or Iraq, or in a rural town in the USA, everybody to a large extent knows everybody and what they are doing. If the natives were strongly on the side of the US, it would be easy to find who the insurgents are. You say I talk of percentages, whereas you talk of how individual lives are affected. I suspect the percentages of Iraqis who favored killing invading Americans is a reflection of how hundreds of thousands of lives were affected or in many cases terminated because of the US invasion. I stated that surveys have found 1/4 of Iraqis say that the invasion has resulted in the deaths of some members of their households. If you include family members like cousins, nephews,nieces etc. as well as friends the majority of Iraqis have lost loved ones from the invasion and occupation.I have a friend of mine that was in Vietnam. He told me there was only one person he knew for sure he killed over there. He said often there would be an attack, and they would shoot at guerellas and in the morning there would be dead bodies, but it was impossible to tell if you or one of your fellow soldiers killed them. One time as they invaded a village, a native woman with a long knife came at my friend and he shot her to death.

      General Smedley Butler won two two medals of honor for his heroism, and was the most decorated man in Marine history. However, he retired at 50 and spent the remaining years of his life speakinbg for peace and explaining how citizens are misled into wars to make big bucks for special interests. He wrote a book, War is a Racket, which is very short and is available free online. Here is a an excerpt.


      "I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."[26]
      Butler wrote this book in 1935, and war is a hell of a lot bigger racket now .

      Peace,
      Tom


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • tom
      Mary, Of course, neither of us can be sure of the future, so I can t tell you unequivocally what the result of a US pullout of Afghanistan would be. However, I
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 5, 2009
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        Mary,

        Of course, neither of us can be sure of the future, so I can't tell you unequivocally what the result of a US pullout of Afghanistan would be. However, I think a bit of study puts a lot of doubts about the US entrance to various wars that the US was involved in since the Spanish American War. We learned in our history classes the supposed reasons for the US entrance into these wars. However, I suspect people taking history classes in any nation tend to learn the version that makes their nation appear to be only defending themselves.When the Holy Roman Empire overran pagan peoples, the citizens of the Holy Roman Empire were told they were saving their souls etc. As I stated in the previous post, it is interesting to me that the architects of the US mideast invasions, the Bush administration was heavily allied with traditional values forces in the US and yet in regard to the mideast were proponents of modernism etc. Comparing Britan's appeasement of Hitler to a policy of nonintervention by the US in the mideast to me is misleading because Germany had the possibility of defeating the UK, but the Taliban or Alchida has less chance of defeating the US than you have of defeating the current heavy weight boxing champion of the world. If anything, recent US aggression in the mideast has probably resulted in more recruits to Al Quada and the Taliban. I have heard that it is an Islamic principle that any males have a duty to revenge harm done to their family members. I have read in two places that CNN has had a sugar coated version of Afghanistan news coverage for US audiences, and a more realistic one for viewers in other nations. I believe that the last 60 years or so show us that even though a superpowewr can easily invade a third world country, succesful occupation of these places is pretty much impossible. This was true for both the French and later the US in Vietnam, the USSR and later the US in Afghanistan, and the US in Iraq. I believe the main reason for this is that to a large extent the insurgents have the support of the people. Whither in a small village in Afghanistan or Iraq, or in a rural town in the USA, everybody to a large extent knows everybody and what they are doing. If the natives were strongly on the side of the US, it would be easy to find who the insurgents are. You say I talk of percentages, whereas you talk of how individual lives are affected. I suspect the percentages of Iraqis who favored killing invading Americans is a reflection of how hundreds of thousands of lives were affected or in many cases terminated because of the US invasion. I stated that surveys have found 1/4 of Iraqis say that the invasion has resulted in the deaths of some members of their households. If you include family members like cousins, nephews,nieces etc. as well as friends the majority of Iraqis have lost loved ones from the invasion and occupation.I have a friend of mine that was in Vietnam. He told me there was only one person he knew for sure he killed over there. He said often there would be an attack, and they would shoot at guerellas and in the morning there would be dead bodies, but it was impossible to tell if you or one of your fellow soldiers killed them. One time as they invaded a village, a native woman with a long knife came at my friend and he shot her to death.

        General Smedley Butler won two two medals of honor for his heroism, and was the most decorated man in Marine history. However, he retired at 50 and spent the remaining years of his life speakinbg for peace and explaining how citizens are misled into wars to make big bucks for special interests. He wrote a book, War is a Racket, which is very short and is available free online. Here is a an excerpt

        Mary,

        Of course, neither of us can be sure of the future, so I can't tell you unequivocally what the result of a US pullout of Afghanistan would be. However, I think a bit of study puts a lot of doubts about the US entrance to various wars that the US was involved in since the Spanish American War. We learned in our history classes the supposed reasons for the US entrance into these wars. However, I suspect people taking history classes in any nation tend to learn the version that makes their nation appear to be only defending themselves.When the Holy Roman Empire overran pagan peoples, the citizens of the Holy Roman Empire were told they were saving their souls etc. As I stated in the previous post, it is interesting to me that the architects of the US mideast invasions, the Bush administration was heavily allied with traditional values forces in the US and yet in regard to the mideast were proponents of modernism etc. Comparing Britan's appeasement of Hitler to a policy of nonintervention by the US in the mideast to me is misleading because Germany had the possibility of defeating the UK, but the Taliban or Alchida has less chance of defeating the US than you have of defeating the current heavy weight boxing champion of the world. If anything, recent US aggression in the mideast has probably resulted in more recruits to Al Quada and the Taliban. I have heard that it is an Islamic principle that any males have a duty to revenge harm done to their family members. I have read in two places that CNN has had a sugar coated version of Afghanistan news coverage for US audiences, and a more realistic one for viewers in other nations. I believe that the last 60 years or so show us that even though a superpowewr can easily invade a third world country, succesful occupation of these places is pretty much impossible. This was true for both the French and later the US in Vietnam, the USSR and later the US in Afghanistan, and the US in Iraq. I believe the main reason for this is that to a large extent the insurgents have the support of the people. Whither in a small village in Afghanistan or Iraq, or in a rural town in the USA, everybody to a large extent knows everybody and what they are doing. If the natives were strongly on the side of the US, it would be easy to find who the insurgents are. You say I talk of percentages, whereas you talk of how individual lives are affected. I suspect the percentages of Iraqis who favored killing invading Americans is a reflection of how hundreds of thousands of lives were affected or in many cases terminated because of the US invasion. I stated that surveys have found 1/4 of Iraqis say that the invasion has resulted in the deaths of some members of their households. If you include family members like cousins, nephews,nieces etc. as well as friends the majority of Iraqis have lost loved ones from the invasion and occupation.I have a friend of mine that was in Vietnam. He told me there was only one person he knew for sure he killed over there. He said often there would be an attack, and they would shoot at guerellas and in the morning there would be dead bodies, but it was impossible to tell if you or one of your fellow soldiers killed them. One time as they invaded a village, a native woman with a long knife came at my friend and he shot her to death.

        General Smedley Butler won two two medals of honor for his heroism, and was the most decorated man in Marine history. However, he retired at 50 and spent the remaining years of his life speakinbg for peace and explaining how citizens are misled into wars to make big bucks for special interests. He wrote a book, War is a Racket, which is very short and is available free online. Here is a an excerpt


        double recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor

        "I spent 33 years and 4 months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force--the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I suspected I was part of a racket all the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all members of the military profession I never had an original thought until I left the service."
        Smedley D. Butler (1881-1940)
        This book was written in 1935, and war has become a much bigger racket since then.
        Peace,
        Tom

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mary
        Tom, Thank you for your engaging and familiar perspective. All I can say is that I hope you re right, and I take some small comfort in the knowledge that NGO s
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 5, 2009
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          Tom,

          Thank you for your engaging and familiar perspective. All I can say is that I hope you're right, and I take some small comfort in the knowledge that NGO's will continue regardless of corrupt motives, profiteering, and propaganda. I think most Americans would rather pay for their services. I still, however, have to err on the side of cautious optimism. The future will arrive, one way or another. I'm glad I won't be here to see it.

          Mary
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