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Neitche the Kid

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  • William
    It has become work to rest for me. Into the endless progression that takes president in a life it is timeless as you could trade any hour to another and notice
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 6, 2009
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      It has become work to rest for me. Into the endless progression that takes president in a life it is timeless as you could trade any hour to another and notice little difference. It is living on cruise control. Yesterday and again today chaos and madness rule.
      The Army psychiatrist comes out of nowhere and is something new in time. I have served with such men but have never seen one go ballistic. Even in ten long bloody minutes to cause the carnage apparent he had to be a very proficient pistoleer. Then a civilian, female police officer cuts him down . I think he wounded her but she got him. The whole mess is a security nightmare. I know they are struggling to retain control and am confident they will win out.
      The shooter seems to have lost his mind and lashed out in total violence. He was the professional bulwerk in control of such situations. It brings up so many questions of terrorism, religous fanaticism, racism, bullying, moles, Islam and conspiracy and treason.
      Gates is about to speak and I will respect the moment of silence. Bill
    • Mary
      The explanation from N still applies: the hatred of the powerless, the resentment of the priests. People would rather will nothingness than not will.
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 7, 2009
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        The explanation from N still applies: the hatred of the powerless, the resentment of the priests. People would rather will nothingness than not will. (Genealogy of Morals) Mary

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:

        > The shooter seems to have lost his mind and lashed out in total violence. He was the professional bulwerk in control of such situations. It brings up so many questions of terrorism, religous fanaticism, racism, bullying, moles, Islam and conspiracy and treason.
        >
      • Mary
        Bill, ignore my oversimplification. This tragic incident is so bizarre and yet strangely logical. When people feel trapped, they submit or lash out. Fear and
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 7, 2009
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          Bill, ignore my oversimplification. This tragic incident is so bizarre and yet strangely logical. When people feel trapped, they submit or lash out. Fear and resentment are always understandable, but this new phenomena of murder-suicide seems a nihilistic combination of loathing and pity which Nietzsche predicted. Clerics-priests traditionally turn the supplicant into the guilty party, one who fails. The religious militants are terrifying. Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <mary.josie59@...> wrote:
          >
          > The explanation from N still applies: the hatred of the powerless, the resentment of the priests. People would rather will nothingness than not will. (Genealogy of Morals) Mary
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
          >
          > > The shooter seems to have lost his mind and lashed out in total violence. He was the professional bulwerk in control of such situations. It brings up so many questions of terrorism, religous fanaticism, racism, bullying, moles, Islam and conspiracy and treason.
          > >
          >
        • tom
          Mary, I think a real good case can be made for the priests being the allies of the powerful. For the long duration of the Holy Roman Empire, the Pope was the
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 7, 2009
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            Mary,

            I think a real good case can be made for the priests being the allies of the powerful. For the long duration of the Holy Roman Empire, the Pope was the kingmaker. Whatever the state dogma is, it is used as a justifcation for the existing order. This is true whither the dogma was Catholicism in the Holy Roman empire, or dialectical materialism under the Soviets.

            Certainly terrorism of various sorts is the only way a smaller weaker opponent can sucesfully fight a bigger stronger one. If a dog attacks a cat, the cat will not meet the attack head on, but move to the side and attempt to jump on the dogs back etc.

            Tom
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Mary
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:41 AM
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Neitche the Kid



            Bill, ignore my oversimplification. This tragic incident is so bizarre and yet strangely logical. When people feel trapped, they submit or lash out. Fear and resentment are always understandable, but this new phenomena of murder-suicide seems a nihilistic combination of loathing and pity which Nietzsche predicted. Clerics-priests traditionally turn the supplicant into the guilty party, one who fails. The religious militants are terrifying. Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <mary.josie59@...> wrote:
            >
            > The explanation from N still applies: the hatred of the powerless, the resentment of the priests. People would rather will nothingness than not will. (Genealogy of Morals) Mary
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@> wrote:
            >
            > > The shooter seems to have lost his mind and lashed out in total violence. He was the professional bulwerk in control of such situations. It brings up so many questions of terrorism, religous fanaticism, racism, bullying, moles, Islam and conspiracy and treason.
            > >
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mary
            But of course. They keep the herd in line. Mary ... I think a real good case can be made for the priests being the allies of the powerful.
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 7, 2009
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              But of course. They keep the herd in line. Mary

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
              I think a real good case can be made for the priests being the allies of the powerful.
            • tom
              Mary, The herd is a very appropriate word. I suspect that at least one factor in the term alienated intelectual is the historic fact that dogmas generally
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 7, 2009
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                Mary,

                The herd is a very appropriate word. I suspect that at least one factor in the term "alienated intelectual" is the historic fact that dogmas generally have many aspects within them that increasingly makes them appear questionable to an inquiring intellect.Howver, dogma is a very effective tool for building powerful groups of people commited to certain agendas.We can discuss from our ivory tower all day about to what extent we are individuals, and to what extent we are members of various herds. However, if while we are discussing, if someone else uses various dogmas along with other methods to unite groups of people with a good supply of technology and resources, they can kick down our doors and handcuff us for various charges.

                In nature, to a large extent organic beings from the single celled amoeba on up tends to organize into colonies, herds, packs, tribes.Certainly the coordination of birds flying is indicative of such a linkage. I have heard of certain ants, that will sacrafice themselves for the tribe. Among aboriginal people, the witchdoctor has the responsibilty of getting the tribe in the right mood to do what needs doing. Carl Jung said in a tribal situation, the chief and the witchdoctor are the only individuals. Seen in that way, the chief and the witchdoctor are natural allies. One of the ways charismic dictators like Hitler gained power was in his ability to bring the crowds together into a unity. From that point of view, their previous disatisfactions were the inevitable result of in affect of being a decadent bourgeoisie in Marxist dogma, or an infidel in Islamic terms etc. But using the longing in the human soul for some form of transcendence, unity, and life purpose, powerful movements have been created for good or ill.

                Witch Doctor

                A Witch Doctor is a cat, who can get the tribe up on their feet.
                He can get them all to come together, and become complete.
                He can get a lonely brave to hang around; when he could go back to his tee pee and beat his meat.

                Groovy man

                by the Cool Cat

                www.thecoolcat.net

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Mary
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 3:10 PM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Neitche the Kid



                But of course. They keep the herd in line. Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                I think a real good case can be made for the priests being the allies of the powerful.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mary
                Tom, This statement is why I admire Camus, his sense of the absurd and his grasp of Nietzsche. We argue that this longing is dangerous. Mary ... But using the
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 8, 2009
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                  Tom,

                  This statement is why I admire Camus, his sense of the absurd and his grasp of Nietzsche. We argue that this longing is dangerous.

                  Mary


                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                  But using the longing in the human soul for some form of transcendence, unity, and life purpose, powerful movements have been created for good or ill.
                • tom
                  Mary, Yes, this longing is dangerous, but so is life. I believe the deep yearning for transcendence is expressed in things apparently diverse as romantic love,
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 8, 2009
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                    Mary,

                    Yes, this longing is dangerous, but so is life. I believe the deep yearning for transcendence is expressed in things apparently diverse as romantic love, parental love, militaries, gangs, and various mystical practices. I recall u told us about a time when ur child was sick, and until they got well ur focus was on them not yourself.

                    Vincent Van Gogh
                    Vincent Van Gogh once cut off part of his ear to give to a ho.

                    Now Vincent could draw really well, and really dig the beauty a starry starry night could show.

                    But his knowledge of women was relatively low.

                    Groovy man

                    by the Cool Cat

                    www.thecoolcat.net

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Mary
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:06 AM
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: Neitche the Kid



                    Tom,

                    This statement is why I admire Camus, his sense of the absurd and his grasp of Nietzsche. We argue that this longing is dangerous.

                    Mary

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                    But using the longing in the human soul for some form of transcendence, unity, and life purpose, powerful movements have been created for good or ill.





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mary
                    Tom, I long for diversion, not transcendence. These expressions seem to me very human instincts and will, nothing beyond simply being human. One can be
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 8, 2009
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                      Tom,

                      I long for diversion, not transcendence. These expressions seem to me very human instincts and will, nothing beyond simply being human. One can be philosophically solitary and remain a remain in social solidarity. The danger of the need to belong lies in trust and regrets.

                      Mary

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                      Yes, this longing is dangerous, but so is life. I believe the deep yearning for
                      transcendence is expressed in things apparently diverse as romantic love,
                      parental love, militaries, gangs, and various mystical practices
                    • tom
                      Mary, I agree that a person can be philosophically solitary and remain in social solidarity. I included mystical practices in the modes of expression in which
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 8, 2009
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                        Mary,

                        I agree that a person can be philosophically solitary and remain in social solidarity. I included mystical practices in the modes of expression in which humans have expressed longing for transcendence and unity. Within those parameters, the Buddha awakening under the Bodi Tree is expressing these longings in a quite solitary and peaceful manner. During the cultural revolution of the 60s and 70s, a good case can be made that both the hawks and the peaceniks were expressing the same longings. It was just expressed in opposite ways. Hippies tripping and having love-ins is one mode of expression of such transcendence. A Marine jumping on a handgrinaide to save his buddies is another. To quote Bob Dylan in "Tangled up in Blue" "We always did feel the same. we just started with a different point of view.". Bill likes to quote Dylan every now and then.





                        The Artist

                        The artist is a man on the edge.

                        The artist is often a man tempted to jump off the ledge.

                        Between the artist and his visions;

                        The reality that life is a bitch, is the wedge.

                        Groovy man

                        by the Cool Cat

                        www.thecoolcat.net



                        Peace,

                        Tom



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Mary
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:48 PM
                        Subject: [existlist] Re: Neitche the Kid



                        Tom,

                        I long for diversion, not transcendence. These expressions seem to me very human instincts and will, nothing beyond simply being human. One can be philosophically solitary and remain a remain in social solidarity. The danger of the need to belong lies in trust and regrets.

                        Mary

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                        Yes, this longing is dangerous, but so is life. I believe the deep yearning for
                        transcendence is expressed in things apparently diverse as romantic love,
                        parental love, militaries, gangs, and various mystical practices





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Mary
                        Tom, I further argue that this longing is dangerous, because it becomes prey to the propagandists, those who market, bring us the news, purvey the common
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 10, 2009
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                          Tom,

                          I further argue that this longing is dangerous, because it becomes prey to the propagandists, those who market, bring us the news, purvey the 'common' interest, and recruit for various causes.

                          Mary

                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <mary.josie59@...> wrote:
                          Tom,

                          This statement is why I admire Camus, his sense of the absurd and his grasp of
                          Nietzsche. We argue that this longing is dangerous.

                          Mary

                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                          But using the longing in the human soul for some form of transcendence, unity,
                          and life purpose, powerful movements have been created for good or ill.
                        • tom
                          Mary, I agree there is much danger involved, but there is danger in sexual longing, dangers in science etc. I believe human progress involved utilizing
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 10, 2009
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                            Mary,

                            I agree there is much danger involved, but there is danger in sexual longing, dangers in science etc. I believe human progress involved utilizing longings and drives in the most constructive ways. Whither this wll be accomplished, or whither mankind will destroy itself is still up in the air. But this desire to transcend our biological shells and embrace a bigger self is and always has been very strong in humanity.

                            A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

                            Tom
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Mary
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:44 AM
                            Subject: [existlist] Re: Neitche the Kid



                            Tom,

                            I further argue that this longing is dangerous, because it becomes prey to the propagandists, those who market, bring us the news, purvey the 'common' interest, and recruit for various causes.

                            Mary

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <mary.josie59@...> wrote:
                            Tom,

                            This statement is why I admire Camus, his sense of the absurd and his grasp of
                            Nietzsche. We argue that this longing is dangerous.

                            Mary

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                            But using the longing in the human soul for some form of transcendence, unity,
                            and life purpose, powerful movements have been created for good or ill.





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Mary
                            Tom, This is only one melody, but for the last seven years I ve been developing my own counterpoint, balancing if you will, with a Nietzschean strain. I don t
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 10, 2009
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                              Tom,

                              This is only one melody, but for the last seven years I've been developing my own counterpoint, balancing if you will, with a Nietzschean strain. I don't know if humans have always wanted to transcend or discover a bigger self. I suspect they simply wanted more of the good things found in this life. Community or solidarity is where and what you make of it. Of course there is longing, but it's better left for the individual to decide. The absurdist lives in an artistic tension between longing and fulfillment, desire and danger. Reevaluate and care as you will. You can only make your own meaning, even alongside others.

                              Mary

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                              I agree there is much danger involved, but there is danger in sexual longing,
                              dangers in science etc. I believe human progress involved utilizing longings and
                              drives in the most constructive ways. Whither this wll be accomplished, or
                              whither mankind will destroy itself is still up in the air. But this desire to
                              transcend our biological shells and embrace a bigger self is and always has been
                              very strong in humanity.
                            • tom
                              Mary, I am not insisting on any meaning for anybody. I am only offering my own perceptions.As for transcendence versus personal acquisitions, as a polytheist I
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 10, 2009
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                                Mary,

                                I am not insisting on any meaning for anybody. I am only offering my own perceptions.As for transcendence versus personal acquisitions, as a polytheist I tend to pereceive human motivations and actions as the result of a number of values and drives. I certainly wouldn't argue with the fact that much of human activity is motivated by the will to survive, the will for your lineage to survive, the will to power, sexual drives, as well as the means of production prevalent in a given space/time. In actuality, it is usually difficult to isolate these factors, because I believe they are often entwined. The right interprets the Fort Hood massacre in terms of alliances with terrorists;whereas the left interprets it in terms of the Major's stresses, lonliness etc. I suspect the truth may well be a combination of all of the above. His psychological state could very well predispose him to make alliances with terrorists, and eventually take trhe action he took.

                                The psychologist, Abraham Maslow proposed


                                There are five different levels in Maslow's hierarchy of needs:

                                1.. Physiological Needs
                                These include the most basic needs that are vital to survival, such as the need for water, air, food and sleep. Maslow believed that these needs are the most basic and instinctive needs in the hierarchy because all needs become secondary until these physiological needs are met.


                                2.. Security Needs
                                These include needs for safety and security. Security needs are important for survival, but they are not as demanding as the physiological needs. Examples of security needs include a desire for steady employment, health insurance, safe neighborhoods and shelter from the environment.


                                3.. Social Needs
                                These include needs for belonging, love and affection. Maslow considered these needs to be less basic than physiological and security needs. Relationships such as friendships, romantic attachments and families help fulfill this need for companionship and acceptance, as does involvement in social, community or religious groups.


                                4.. Esteem Needs
                                After the first three needs have been satisfied, esteem needs becomes increasingly important. These include the need for things that reflect on self-esteem, personal worth, social recognition and accomplishment.


                                5.. Self-actualizing Needs
                                This is the highest level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Self-actualizing people are self-aware, concerned with personal growth, less concerned with the opinions of others and interested fulfilling their potential.
                                Of course, I would say to Maslow that many things that are acts of heroism show the person sacraficing lower needs like the needs for security and even life to a cause or other individuals.In general, I believe actions in which all the drives partake are likely to be more effective and fullfilling. To the extent that there is a good deal of conflict between the drives, the ones that are ignored or repressed are likely to in effect act as subconcious insurgencies against the accomplishment of such tasks.

                                Tom

                                Tom
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Mary
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:06 PM
                                Subject: [existlist] Re: Neitche the Kid



                                Tom,

                                This is only one melody, but for the last seven years I've been developing my own counterpoint, balancing if you will, with a Nietzschean strain. I don't know if humans have always wanted to transcend or discover a bigger self. I suspect they simply wanted more of the good things found in this life. Community or solidarity is where and what you make of it. Of course there is longing, but it's better left for the individual to decide. The absurdist lives in an artistic tension between longing and fulfillment, desire and danger. Reevaluate and care as you will. You can only make your own meaning, even alongside others.

                                Mary

                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                                I agree there is much danger involved, but there is danger in sexual longing,
                                dangers in science etc. I believe human progress involved utilizing longings and
                                drives in the most constructive ways. Whither this wll be accomplished, or
                                whither mankind will destroy itself is still up in the air. But this desire to
                                transcend our biological shells and embrace a bigger self is and always has been
                                very strong in humanity.





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mary
                                Tom, I agree there is a combination of values and drives, categorized or not, which comprise human activity. They are the `good stuff , life itself. Yet,
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 11, 2009
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                                  Tom,

                                  I agree there is a combination of values and drives, categorized or not, which comprise human activity. They are the `good stuff', life itself. Yet, perspective is* the difference. I reject polytheism and transcendence, because they don't serve me in any useful fashion. As I've said before, I don't require god/s and transcendence in order to appreciate something as grand as the universe or my in/significance in it. Values and drives are human, for better or worse, and existentialism is a call to revaluate that which doesn't serve us. If you decide polytheism and transcendence serve you, so be it. The feeling of transcendence is also the result of suffering and awareness of death. The danger doesn't lie in the risk of making decisions: the danger is in allowing others to recruit us against our instincts, in allowing others to lead us into submission or nihilism.

                                  The absurd is the clash of the given world with human desire, so I agree with Camus and Nietzsche that creators do not need to transcend their humanity. They only need to create. Do art, music or literature destroy? If anything, they create bonds and have even been credited with ending apartheid, the former USSR, and who knows what else. Yet even art can be subverted for propaganda. It has that in common with `longing'. I am not telling anyone, including myself, not to desire or create. I'm simply saying there is nothing to transcend. All that you are or comprehend is the result of being human. What is beautiful about the absurd perspective is that it doesn't lead to murder/suicide or transcendence. The absurd lives uncomfortably between hope and acceptance.

                                  Mary
                                • tom
                                  Mary, To a large extent I agree with your statements. When I refer to poytheism, I don t mean to imply that I am referring to gods in the sense that they are
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 11, 2009
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                                    Mary,

                                    To a large extent I agree with your statements. When I refer to poytheism, I don't mean to imply that I am referring to gods in the sense that they are individual beings. Rather, I see Gods representing drives and values. So my reference to my being a polytheist meant that rather than attempting to reduce human motivation down to one aspect, whither it be sex or power;I believe views that emphasize the interplay of different forces are more on the mark. Certainly, as more individuals are able to examine the introjections they have taken in from society, it is the best of times, and it is the worst of times. In the past, I have made reference in these posts to the contrasts of organic and open societies which corresponds to traditional to critical thinking. In an organic society, individuals are born into certain roles in the collective, and traditional thinking is the mode which the individual uses to fullfill his or her roles. Whereas open socities by nature are in flux, and the individual will tend to use critical thinking to determine what is of value and interest to them.

                                    I do believe the transformation can only profitably proceed at a certain pace, and I believe much of US foreign policy does not take account of the harm done by too rapidly disrupting tribal customs.

                                    Tom
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Mary
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:23 AM
                                    Subject: [existlist] why transcendence?



                                    Tom,

                                    I agree there is a combination of values and drives, categorized or not, which comprise human activity. They are the `good stuff', life itself. Yet, perspective is* the difference. I reject polytheism and transcendence, because they don't serve me in any useful fashion. As I've said before, I don't require god/s and transcendence in order to appreciate something as grand as the universe or my in/significance in it. Values and drives are human, for better or worse, and existentialism is a call to revaluate that which doesn't serve us. If you decide polytheism and transcendence serve you, so be it. The feeling of transcendence is also the result of suffering and awareness of death. The danger doesn't lie in the risk of making decisions: the danger is in allowing others to recruit us against our instincts, in allowing others to lead us into submission or nihilism.

                                    The absurd is the clash of the given world with human desire, so I agree with Camus and Nietzsche that creators do not need to transcend their humanity. They only need to create. Do art, music or literature destroy? If anything, they create bonds and have even been credited with ending apartheid, the former USSR, and who knows what else. Yet even art can be subverted for propaganda. It has that in common with `longing'. I am not telling anyone, including myself, not to desire or create. I'm simply saying there is nothing to transcend. All that you are or comprehend is the result of being human. What is beautiful about the absurd perspective is that it doesn't lead to murder/suicide or transcendence. The absurd lives uncomfortably between hope and acceptance.

                                    Mary





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Mary
                                    Thanks, Tom, for confessing your appreciation of mythology. Quite frankly, I m relieved. I agree that the history of the U.S., and that of the New World West
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 11, 2009
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                                      Thanks, Tom, for confessing your appreciation of mythology. Quite frankly, I'm relieved. I agree that the history of the U.S., and that of the New World West has been one of great impatience. The existential question is how does the individual affect the power structure which makes these decisions, because it is the modern impatience of power that wreaks havoc with older cultures. Power is what drives such insistence, but adaptation and assimilation are existential tasks. Mary

                                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Mary,
                                      >
                                      > To a large extent I agree with your statements. When I refer to poytheism, I don't mean to imply that I am referring to gods in the sense that they are individual beings. Rather, I see Gods representing drives and values. So my reference to my being a polytheist meant that rather than attempting to reduce human motivation down to one aspect, whither it be sex or power;I believe views that emphasize the interplay of different forces are more on the mark. Certainly, as more individuals are able to examine the introjections they have taken in from society, it is the best of times, and it is the worst of times. In the past, I have made reference in these posts to the contrasts of organic and open societies which corresponds to traditional to critical thinking. In an organic society, individuals are born into certain roles in the collective, and traditional thinking is the mode which the individual uses to fullfill his or her roles. Whereas open socities by nature are in flux, and the individual will tend to use critical thinking to determine what is of value and interest to them.
                                      >
                                      > I do believe the transformation can only profitably proceed at a certain pace, and I believe much of US foreign policy does not take account of the harm done by too rapidly disrupting tribal customs.
                                      >
                                      > Tom
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Mary
                                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:23 AM
                                      > Subject: [existlist] why transcendence?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Tom,
                                      >
                                      > I agree there is a combination of values and drives, categorized or not, which comprise human activity. They are the `good stuff', life itself. Yet, perspective is* the difference. I reject polytheism and transcendence, because they don't serve me in any useful fashion. As I've said before, I don't require god/s and transcendence in order to appreciate something as grand as the universe or my in/significance in it. Values and drives are human, for better or worse, and existentialism is a call to revaluate that which doesn't serve us. If you decide polytheism and transcendence serve you, so be it. The feeling of transcendence is also the result of suffering and awareness of death. The danger doesn't lie in the risk of making decisions: the danger is in allowing others to recruit us against our instincts, in allowing others to lead us into submission or nihilism.
                                      >
                                      > The absurd is the clash of the given world with human desire, so I agree with Camus and Nietzsche that creators do not need to transcend their humanity. They only need to create. Do art, music or literature destroy? If anything, they create bonds and have even been credited with ending apartheid, the former USSR, and who knows what else. Yet even art can be subverted for propaganda. It has that in common with `longing'. I am not telling anyone, including myself, not to desire or create. I'm simply saying there is nothing to transcend. All that you are or comprehend is the result of being human. What is beautiful about the absurd perspective is that it doesn't lead to murder/suicide or transcendence. The absurd lives uncomfortably between hope and acceptance.
                                      >
                                      > Mary
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • Al
                                      Tom, have you studied jung s theory of the archetypes ? From my understanding of your transandence theory for transcendence is very closly similar to
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 12, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Tom, have you studied jung's theory of the 'archetypes'? From my
                                        understanding of your transandence theory for transcendence is very
                                        closly similar to psychological depths explored my jung.

                                        Is there any form of meditation that you do, conjuring up images of the
                                        representing gods for the representing drives and instincts?

                                        I must say your idea of polytheism is very interesting. I remember
                                        first reading about it from Nietzsche, a remarkably robust form for the
                                        trancedental.

                                        How does trancendence work for you? Isn't it also a sort of drive to
                                        raise the biological libido to the spiritual trancedental planes of
                                        forms and ideas? and hence to bring thoose insights back down to the
                                        world of the physical, as in a continual process of redevelopment?

                                        Could u give me ONE example of a trancedental experience of one of the
                                        drives?

                                        THANKS, good conversation! - Al
                                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <mary.josie59@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thanks, Tom, for confessing your appreciation of mythology. Quite
                                        frankly, I'm relieved. I agree that the history of the U.S., and that of
                                        the New World West has been one of great impatience. The existential
                                        question is how does the individual affect the power structure which
                                        makes these decisions, because it is the modern impatience of power that
                                        wreaks havoc with older cultures. Power is what drives such insistence,
                                        but adaptation and assimilation are existential tasks. Mary
                                        >
                                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" tsmith17_midsouth1@ wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Mary,
                                        > >
                                        > > To a large extent I agree with your statements. When I refer to
                                        poytheism, I don't mean to imply that I am referring to gods in the
                                        sense that they are individual beings. Rather, I see Gods representing
                                        drives and values. So my reference to my being a polytheist meant that
                                        rather than attempting to reduce human motivation down to one aspect,
                                        whither it be sex or power;I believe views that emphasize the interplay
                                        of different forces are more on the mark. Certainly, as more individuals
                                        are able to examine the introjections they have taken in from society,
                                        it is the best of times, and it is the worst of times. In the past, I
                                        have made reference in these posts to the contrasts of organic and open
                                        societies which corresponds to traditional to critical thinking. In an
                                        organic society, individuals are born into certain roles in the
                                        collective, and traditional thinking is the mode which the individual
                                        uses to fullfill his or her roles. Whereas open socities by nature are
                                        in flux, and the individual will tend to use critical thinking to
                                        determine what is of value and interest to them.
                                        > >
                                        > > I do believe the transformation can only profitably proceed at a
                                        certain pace, and I believe much of US foreign policy does not take
                                        account of the harm done by too rapidly disrupting tribal customs.
                                        > >
                                        > > Tom
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Mary
                                        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:23 AM
                                        > > Subject: [existlist] why transcendence?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Tom,
                                        > >
                                        > > I agree there is a combination of values and drives, categorized or
                                        not, which comprise human activity. They are the `good stuff', life
                                        itself. Yet, perspective is* the difference. I reject polytheism and
                                        transcendence, because they don't serve me in any useful fashion. As
                                        I've said before, I don't require god/s and transcendence in order to
                                        appreciate something as grand as the universe or my in/significance in
                                        it. Values and drives are human, for better or worse, and existentialism
                                        is a call to revaluate that which doesn't serve us. If you decide
                                        polytheism and transcendence serve you, so be it. The feeling of
                                        transcendence is also the result of suffering and awareness of death.
                                        The danger doesn't lie in the risk of making decisions: the danger is in
                                        allowing others to recruit us against our instincts, in allowing others
                                        to lead us into submission or nihilism.
                                        > >
                                        > > The absurd is the clash of the given world with human desire, so I
                                        agree with Camus and Nietzsche that creators do not need to transcend
                                        their humanity. They only need to create. Do art, music or literature
                                        destroy? If anything, they create bonds and have even been credited with
                                        ending apartheid, the former USSR, and who knows what else. Yet even art
                                        can be subverted for propaganda. It has that in common with `longing'. I
                                        am not telling anyone, including myself, not to desire or create. I'm
                                        simply saying there is nothing to transcend. All that you are or
                                        comprehend is the result of being human. What is beautiful about the
                                        absurd perspective is that it doesn't lead to murder/suicide or
                                        transcendence. The absurd lives uncomfortably between hope and
                                        acceptance.
                                        > >
                                        > > Mary
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • tom
                                        Al, I have been meditating for many years. I went thru the Transcendental Meditation instructions and the ceremony in the mid70s. I have brief instructions for
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Nov 12, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Al,

                                          I have been meditating for many years. I went thru the Transcendental Meditation instructions and the ceremony in the mid70s. I have brief instructions for mediating the way I do at my website www.thecoolcat.net Click under the Cool Cat, then on right bottom of the page, there is a caption saying click here for meditation tips.

                                          I have read a good bit of Jung, and consider him a very interesting guy. I recall two Jung quotes I like a lot. One is that the concept of the subconcious is like the concept of God and the Devil, a word attempting to describe something that you don't understand very well. Another Jung quote was that he was glad he wasn't a Jungian, otherwise he could never change his mind. The theoretical physicist, Wolfgang Paul was a patent of Jung. In a process of enabling Pauli to open up to the less developed parts of his personality, Jung analyzed many of his dreams. Pauli developed and published a paper on Syncronicity, purporting to explain simultaneous occurences that defy reductionistic assumptions.

                                          Jung was originally Freud's heir apparent, but Jung broke away and created a rival school of psychology. Much of what Freud perceived as infantile and archaic in the human psyche, Jung perceived as primitive and universal elements of the collective unconciousness, that we could benefit by integrating.

                                          I certainly don't claim expertese on Jung or anything else; but I do find him of interest. Another guy I find interesting is Joseph Cambell, who was to a large extent Jungian, and wrote on the power of myth.

                                          Peace,
                                          Tom.
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Al
                                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:48 AM
                                          Subject: [existlist] Re: why transcendence?




                                          Tom, have you studied jung's theory of the 'archetypes'? From my
                                          understanding of your transandence theory for transcendence is very
                                          closly similar to psychological depths explored my jung.

                                          Is there any form of meditation that you do, conjuring up images of the
                                          representing gods for the representing drives and instincts?

                                          I must say your idea of polytheism is very interesting. I remember
                                          first reading about it from Nietzsche, a remarkably robust form for the
                                          trancedental.

                                          How does trancendence work for you? Isn't it also a sort of drive to
                                          raise the biological libido to the spiritual trancedental planes of
                                          forms and ideas? and hence to bring thoose insights back down to the
                                          world of the physical, as in a continual process of redevelopment?

                                          Could u give me ONE example of a trancedental experience of one of the
                                          drives?

                                          THANKS, good conversation! - Al
                                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <mary.josie59@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Thanks, Tom, for confessing your appreciation of mythology. Quite
                                          frankly, I'm relieved. I agree that the history of the U.S., and that of
                                          the New World West has been one of great impatience. The existential
                                          question is how does the individual affect the power structure which
                                          makes these decisions, because it is the modern impatience of power that
                                          wreaks havoc with older cultures. Power is what drives such insistence,
                                          but adaptation and assimilation are existential tasks. Mary
                                          >
                                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" tsmith17_midsouth1@ wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Mary,
                                          > >
                                          > > To a large extent I agree with your statements. When I refer to
                                          poytheism, I don't mean to imply that I am referring to gods in the
                                          sense that they are individual beings. Rather, I see Gods representing
                                          drives and values. So my reference to my being a polytheist meant that
                                          rather than attempting to reduce human motivation down to one aspect,
                                          whither it be sex or power;I believe views that emphasize the interplay
                                          of different forces are more on the mark. Certainly, as more individuals
                                          are able to examine the introjections they have taken in from society,
                                          it is the best of times, and it is the worst of times. In the past, I
                                          have made reference in these posts to the contrasts of organic and open
                                          societies which corresponds to traditional to critical thinking. In an
                                          organic society, individuals are born into certain roles in the
                                          collective, and traditional thinking is the mode which the individual
                                          uses to fullfill his or her roles. Whereas open socities by nature are
                                          in flux, and the individual will tend to use critical thinking to
                                          determine what is of value and interest to them.
                                          > >
                                          > > I do believe the transformation can only profitably proceed at a
                                          certain pace, and I believe much of US foreign policy does not take
                                          account of the harm done by too rapidly disrupting tribal customs.
                                          > >
                                          > > Tom
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: Mary
                                          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:23 AM
                                          > > Subject: [existlist] why transcendence?
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Tom,
                                          > >
                                          > > I agree there is a combination of values and drives, categorized or
                                          not, which comprise human activity. They are the `good stuff', life
                                          itself. Yet, perspective is* the difference. I reject polytheism and
                                          transcendence, because they don't serve me in any useful fashion. As
                                          I've said before, I don't require god/s and transcendence in order to
                                          appreciate something as grand as the universe or my in/significance in
                                          it. Values and drives are human, for better or worse, and existentialism
                                          is a call to revaluate that which doesn't serve us. If you decide
                                          polytheism and transcendence serve you, so be it. The feeling of
                                          transcendence is also the result of suffering and awareness of death.
                                          The danger doesn't lie in the risk of making decisions: the danger is in
                                          allowing others to recruit us against our instincts, in allowing others
                                          to lead us into submission or nihilism.
                                          > >
                                          > > The absurd is the clash of the given world with human desire, so I
                                          agree with Camus and Nietzsche that creators do not need to transcend
                                          their humanity. They only need to create. Do art, music or literature
                                          destroy? If anything, they create bonds and have even been credited with
                                          ending apartheid, the former USSR, and who knows what else. Yet even art
                                          can be subverted for propaganda. It has that in common with `longing'. I
                                          am not telling anyone, including myself, not to desire or create. I'm
                                          simply saying there is nothing to transcend. All that you are or
                                          comprehend is the result of being human. What is beautiful about the
                                          absurd perspective is that it doesn't lead to murder/suicide or
                                          transcendence. The absurd lives uncomfortably between hope and
                                          acceptance.
                                          > >
                                          > > Mary
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >





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