Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: I dunno

Expand Messages
  • Mary
    If this were an existential topic I d take you on, Louise. Alas, it is not. Mary ... The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      If this were an existential topic I'd take you on, Louise. Alas, it is not. Mary

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "shadowed_statue" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:

      The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so ludicrous it destroys the inner meaning of the faith.
    • shadowed_statue
      Mary, Of course it is an existential topic, the matter of individual faith. Discussion about Kierkegaard has never made much progress at this group.
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Mary, Of course it is an existential topic, the matter of individual faith. Discussion about Kierkegaard has never made much progress at this group. Feelings have so long gone unrespected here, when it is a matter of truly understanding what spirituality may include. My mind is impaired at present, and I can write nothing further. Louise

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <mary.josie59@...> wrote:
        >
        > If this were an existential topic I'd take you on, Louise. Alas, it is not. Mary
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "shadowed_statue" <hecubatoher@> wrote:
        >
        > The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so ludicrous it destroys the inner meaning of the faith.
        >
      • tom
        Louise, I like a quote from George Soros that our ideas of reality will never be totally correct, but hopefully both individually and collectively we can
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Louise,

          I like a quote from George Soros that our ideas of reality will never be totally correct, but hopefully both individually and collectively we can gradually get our concepts closer to reality.I believe as an individual over the course of my life I have gradually got closer to truth. As for the reality of anybody who lived thousands of years ago, there is little certainty about their lives and ideas. If something happens on Main Street yesterday, the accounts we receive are distorted by both purposeful bias as well as errors of observation, memory etc. How much more so the further back we go into time. So I presume we all project a good bit of our own inner inclinations, values etc onto any of the myths. Here are a few quotes by Thomas Jefferson I feel a kinship for
          . I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies. - Jefferson

          . "his [Jesus'] principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind - Jefferson

          The clergy . have been . against the civil and religious rights of man. - Jefferson

          "The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust" Jefferson


          I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
          -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789


          These quotes are very much in line with my thoughts and intuitions on not only Christianity but all organized religion. I believe all religions were founded on new insights and visions by mystically inclined individuals, but soon are transformed into static creeds that more and more reflect the wills to power of various political, economic, and social groups. Carl Jung said "Thank God I am not a Jungian, I can always change my mind."

          This Nietzsche quote fits very well into my ideas

          Change of Cast. -- As soon as a religion comes to dominate it has as its opponents all those who would have been its first disciples.

          from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.118, R.J. Hollingdale transl.

          The original ideas were the product of a person looking within for truth, but in a short time they become creeds that are substitutes for introspection. As Bruce Lee said at the end of Jeet Kun Do. If anyone says Jeet Ken Do is different from this and that let the name be forgotten, because that is all it is is a name. I forget now the exact name of the council, but around 4 or 5 hundred A.D. a council was held and reincarnation was voted out. That seems to me to fit into Jung's ideas that to understand the psyche of western peoples we must understand the fact that it was necesary to create a very black and white creed to civilize out ancestors who were primative tribes of roving hunting tribes. Carl Jung maintained the east had thousands of years to integrate the instinctive with the ideal; whereas our situation demanded things like reincarnation be done away wigh for an eternal hell. It was thought that only the fear of some bad lives in the future was not enough to deter the invading barbarians fron their instinctive patterns of murdering, raping and looting.

          Naturally, thinkers we admire are to a certain extent reflecting archtypical thinking that is congruent with the archtypes that are emerging within our own psyche, so I can not claim any dogmatic certainty that I am totally right, but all I can say is that these are ideas that my outer observations and inner intuitions lead me toward.



          Peace,

          Tom





          ----- Original Message -----
          From: shadowed_statue
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:32 PM
          Subject: [existlist] Re: I dunno



          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
          > As I have stated before I understand institutionlized Christianity was created by adulterating paganism to transform religion from a means of communion and empowerment to a means of social control. However, Carl Jung maintained that to understand the psychic split in the western mind we have to understand we came too fast too soon. After the barbarians overran Rome, in less than a century the descendents of the marauding barbarians had been transformed from nomadic hunting tribes, who when the opportunity arose loved nothing better than overrunning a city, and partying for about a month as they could skip hunting and enjoy the new women, drink, smoke herbs etc into God fearing Christian peasants. So scaring the hell out of people was the essence of inistutionalized Christianity.Of course scaring wives was as important as scaring barbarians. Doing so made paternal succesion something u could believe in, which help create strong family bonds for powerful enduring groups. I suspect that early Christianity was initilly a resurgence of a form of paganism. The deep friendship and many say erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdelin, as well as Jesus taking up for the woman taken in sin, references to the birds of the field, and always teaching in meadows, on mountaintops etc is indicative of a breaking free of the many rules of Judism.

          Tom, Your views on religion are consistent, and often annoying. The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so ludicrous it destroys the inner meaning of the faith. Fairly obviously, we are not going to make progress by discussing this point, because your focus is on a generalised sweep of historic institutions, and mine is the Kierkegaardian theme of the single believer, an existential endeavour that does not bow to the needs of potentates and princes. I wish to put my objection on record, that your impression of what "many say" is depressingly misleading. Having said that, by all means come back at me if you wish. We might be able to discuss around the subject, even if we cannot make headway when we appear to be referring to quite different phenomena. There is a difference between Christendom and Christian faith. Louise





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • shadowed_statue
          ... Tom, I guess this is how I feel about people s unofficial religions, including all that working class hero sort of stuff. The trouble with original
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
            > The original ideas were the product of a person looking within for truth, but in a short time they become creeds that are substitutes for introspection.

            Tom, I guess this is how I feel about people's unofficial religions, including all that "working class hero" sort of stuff. The trouble with original ideas is that they often lead to a massed assault on the originator, which may take a very civilised form, such as a jury trial and a dose of hemlock, or a well-organised auto-da-fe. Or, coming closer to the present, a camp for purposes of re-education. As Solzhenitsyn pointed out, the peoples of the West will only learn about totalitarian ideas by hard experience. Louise
          • tom
            Louise, I agree wholeheartedly with you there. That is my point that as religions become institutionalized they will tend to transform themselves into public
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Louise,

              I agree wholeheartedly with you there. That is my point that as religions become institutionalized they will tend to transform themselves into public relations tools for the dominant powers. Most people prefer to avoid crucifictions, burnings at the stake etc. I have heard it said that in medieval times if heresies broke out and there were many reports of helings etc., the Inquisition would get busy. If the new schools of thought were not making many breakthroughs, the popes, cardinals etc would just let it die of its own weakness. As long as a rigid dogma upholds the political, economic and social structures, heresy is seen by all these powers as a danger to them being perceived as ordained by God. The Holy Roman Empire was justified to the masses on the basis that the Pope received his authority from God, and in turn passed it down to kings, lords etc. When Henry the 8th broke with Rome, the new mindset was substituting the king and in his daughter's case the queen for the pope to create more nationalism.
              Tom


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: shadowed_statue
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 10:28 PM
              Subject: [existlist] Re: I dunno


              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
              > The original ideas were the product of a person looking within for truth, but in a short time they become creeds that are substitutes for introspection.

              Tom, I guess this is how I feel about people's unofficial religions, including all that "working class hero" sort of stuff. The trouble with original ideas is that they often lead to a massed assault on the originator, which may take a very civilised form, such as a jury trial and a dose of hemlock, or a well-organised auto-da-fe. Or, coming closer to the present, a camp for purposes of re-education. As Solzhenitsyn pointed out, the peoples of the West will only learn about totalitarian ideas by hard experience. Louise





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.