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I dunno

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  • bhvwd
    Tom and d Dick, I liked your recent posts,they taught me things. I have never been to a rave,uninvited you know. As to all those exotic places in the old world
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
      Tom and d Dick, I liked your recent posts,they taught me things. I have never been to a rave,uninvited you know. As to all those exotic places in the old world it is nice to hear those old names. Supposidly my ancestry came from cork,they certainly popped a few. So rave on , you write well and I enjoy your adventures into my unknown. Bill
    • tom
      Bill, I am glad u enjoyed my post. I have never been invited to a Rave either. The first time I heard of Biden was in regard to the Rave Act. I have read
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
        Bill,

        I am glad u enjoyed my post. I have never been invited to a Rave either. The first time I heard of Biden was in regard to the Rave Act. I have read recently that Bisen in the 80s was the sponsor of the bill that established the Drug Czar's office. Interestingly, the Drug Czar can use public money to fight referendums for pot legalization. Government money used to buy advertising against a yes vote on legalizing pot seems as bad to me as using government money for advertising for a candidate. Interestingly, Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy were among the cosponsors of the bill the second time it came up. the bill was defeated twice but got thru attached to the Amber Alert child abduction bill. That is a trick often used to attach an unpopular bill to a popular bill. No politician would want to give his opponents the chance to say he voted against a bill to fight aganst child abduction.

        Have a good day, and lets hope we all can learn and grown through our interchanges.

        Tom
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: bhvwd
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 10:10 AM
        Subject: [existlist] I dunno


        Tom and d Dick, I liked your recent posts,they taught me things. I have never been to a rave,uninvited you know. As to all those exotic places in the old world it is nice to hear those old names. Supposidly my ancestry came from cork,they certainly popped a few. So rave on , you write well and I enjoy your adventures into my unknown. Bill





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • bhvwd
        Dick, There is a creek in northern Misouri named the Mulchinock creek. Did that wealthy family move to Misouri?Bill
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
          Dick, There is a creek in northern Misouri named the Mulchinock creek. Did that wealthy family move to Misouri?Bill
        • rwr
          I have no idea Bill, interesting though innit, and I doubt if it is a very common name, like wot my bog standard name is. I like Russian names best, Oh yeah
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
            I have no idea Bill, interesting though innit, and I doubt if it is a
            very common name, like wot my bog standard name is. I like Russian names
            best, Oh yeah and I love those North American Indian names (many of them
            were from Russia so I read) – they sound like poetry to me. I think
            I have a great affinity with the old injuns. When we were kids playing
            the back streets of London during the war and we played cowboys and
            injuns I always wanted to be an injun wid a hos and a bow and arrows :-
            )))) Why don't you check it out and let me know. Fascinating.

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dick, There is a creek in northern Misouri named the Mulchinock creek.
            Did that wealthy family move to Misouri?Bill
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • William
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "rwr" <dick.richardson@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I have no idea Bill, interesting though innit, and I doubt if it is a
              > very common name, like wot my bog standard name is. I like Russian names
              > best, Oh yeah and I love those North American Indian names (many of them
              > were from Russia so I read) – they sound like poetry to me. I think
              > I have a great affinity with the old injuns. When we were kids playing
              > the back streets of London during the war and we played cowboys and
              > injuns I always wanted to be an injun wid a hos and a bow and arrows :-
              > )))) Why don't you check it out and let me know. Fascinating.
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@>
              > wrote:
              > >Dick, Here in my office I have many native artifacts, bows, arrows, rabbit club, tom tom and a ceremonial spear. My wife is of indian origin and my father has fox blood. Your English ancestors ,even the ancient ones, were much advanced from native americans.I recently visited the American Indian Museum at the Smithsonian. Many indians work there and they are happy to relate the stone age life of their people. In physical terms they were most simple but in metaphysical terms they were giants. With no written language they were verbal and artifact grounded. They were in nature and I can see how your mysticism dovetails with theirs. I have met their medicine men . I think religion came from such natural and humble origins. What it turned into in Europe is one of the travesties of man. An old medicine man of the Taos told me that if the spanish had not come his people would not have changed and after the europeans leave the Taos will return to the old life. They do not think in centuries or decades, only seasons. It was the season to harvest the rabbits and the elder explained that the handles on the rabbit club grew longer when used from horseback. He considered hunting from horseback unfair as rabbits are not afraid of horses. I therefore purchased a short handled rabbit club. My wife and I move easily amoung the tribes as we can feel the ancient and deep peace amoung them. Yes, you would do well with them. Bill
              > > Dick, There is a creek in northern Misouri named the Mulchinock creek.
              > Did that wealthy family move to Misouri?Bill
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Mary
              Hearing only the echo of war drums today. Sorry, I can t participate. Mary
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
                Hearing only the echo of war drums today. Sorry, I can't participate.
                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "William" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "rwr" <dick.richardson@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > I have no idea Bill, interesting though innit, and I doubt if it is a
                > > very common name, like wot my bog standard name is. I like Russian names
                > > best, Oh yeah and I love those North American Indian names (many of them
                > > were from Russia so I read) – they sound like poetry to me. I think
                > > I have a great affinity with the old injuns. When we were kids playing
                > > the back streets of London during the war and we played cowboys and
                > > injuns I always wanted to be an injun wid a hos and a bow and arrows :-
                > > )))) Why don't you check it out and let me know. Fascinating.
                > >
                > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >Dick, Here in my office I have many native artifacts, bows, arrows, rabbit club, tom tom and a ceremonial spear. My wife is of indian origin and my father has fox blood. Your English ancestors ,even the ancient ones, were much advanced from native americans.I recently visited the American Indian Museum at the Smithsonian. Many indians work there and they are happy to relate the stone age life of their people. In physical terms they were most simple but in metaphysical terms they were giants. With no written language they were verbal and artifact grounded. They were in nature and I can see how your mysticism dovetails with theirs. I have met their medicine men . I think religion came from such natural and humble origins. What it turned into in Europe is one of the travesties of man. An old medicine man of the Taos told me that if the spanish had not come his people would not have changed and after the europeans leave the Taos will return to the old life. They do not think in centuries or decades, only seasons. It was the season to harvest the rabbits and the elder explained that the handles on the rabbit club grew longer when used from horseback. He considered hunting from horseback unfair as rabbits are not afraid of horses. I therefore purchased a short handled rabbit club. My wife and I move easily amoung the tribes as we can feel the ancient and deep peace amoung them. Yes, you would do well with them. Bill
                > > > Dick, There is a creek in northern Misouri named the Mulchinock creek.
                > > Did that wealthy family move to Misouri?Bill
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • tom
                Bill, You write cently visited the American Indian Museum at the Smithsonian. Many indians work there and they are happy to relate the stone age life of their
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
                  Bill,

                  You write

                  cently visited the American Indian Museum at the Smithsonian. Many indians work there and they are happy to relate the stone age life of their people. In physical terms they were most simple but in metaphysical terms they were giants. With no written language they were verbal and artifact grounded. They were in nature and I can see how your mysticism dovetails with theirs. I have met their medicine men . I think religion came from such natural and humble origins. What it turned into in Europe is one of the travesties of man

                  As I have stated before I understand institutionlized Christianity was created by adulterating paganism to transform religion from a means of communion and empowerment to a means of social control. However, Carl Jung maintained that to understand the psychic split in the western mind we have to understand we came too fast too soon. After the barbarians overran Rome, in less than a century the descendents of the marauding barbarians had been transformed from nomadic hunting tribes, who when the opportunity arose loved nothing better than overrunning a city, and partying for about a month as they could skip hunting and enjoy the new women, drink, smoke herbs etc into God fearing Christian peasants. So scaring the hell out of people was the essence of inistutionalized Christianity.Of course scaring wives was as important as scaring barbarians. Doing so made paternal succesion something u could believe in, which help create strong family bonds for powerful enduring groups. I suspect that early Christianity was initilly a resurgence of a form of paganism. The deep friendship and many say erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdelin, as well as Jesus taking up for the woman taken in sin, references to the birds of the field, and always teaching in meadows, on mountaintops etc is indicative of a breaking free of the many rules of Judism.
                  I believe the Catholic Church to a large extent kept the unadulterated paganism for the inner circle. Looked at in that way, the bible can be seen on a number of levels. From a peasant point of view it wa all about scaring the hell out of u, but from the point of the pagans in Priest's clothing that put it together, things like being thrown out of the Garden of Eden and original sin can be seen as symbols of humanity's disconnection with their inner being and the world around them, that coming under the sway of institutionalized Christianity entailed.

                  Adam&Eve
                  Adam and Eve were naked Pagans in the Garden of Eden; until they got uptight, God fearing, and fallen about what kind of fruit they had eaten.

                  Groovy man

                  by the Cool Cat



                  CATHOLIC CHURCH IS DYING
                  The Catholic Church is dying; and you won't hear the Coolcat crying.

                  I spent my childhood and adolescence a victim of their bullying and their lying.

                  That the cat is out of the bag now; there's no denying.

                  Groovy man

                  by the Cool Cat








                  How to turn a Goddess or God into a Saint

                  To turn a goddess or a god into a saint,
                  first you castrate them so the decent folk don't faint.
                  Next you paint over their realness with Catholic white paint. Then the establishment that killed them will gladly pray to them with no complaint.

                  Now Jesus turned water to wine,
                  and he danced, laughed and made love.
                  And showed the thieves and whores how to be divine.
                  Of course the Catholic Church insists it was only their future salvation he had in mind.

                  Now according to Shakespeare,
                  Joan of Arc was a wild lady,
                  who loved orgies in the park.
                  But the Catholic Church originally said her visions were fake,
                  and burned her sweet ass at the stake.
                  Five hundred years later, the Catholic Church admitted they made a mistake,
                  and canonized her a saint.
                  But when they tried her for sorcery and heresy,
                  she said she was in contact with God.
                  The priest laughed as he put the torch to the stake,
                  saying, "no you ain't".

                  So if they can't get rid of a rebel by killing.
                  They pretend that it was really a Catholic way of life, these saints were fulfilling.
                  So as you can see, the Catholic Church is real cunning and has lots of tricks,
                  and they've created saints by removing cunts and dicks.
                  And if in the near future we have another inquisition,
                  and the establishment kills its enemies to save the world from lust and superstition,
                  they'd probably kill all the rock stars with a dagger,
                  and five hundred years later, they'd canonize Saint Jagger.

                  Groovy man

                  by the Cool Cat



                  VICTIMLESS CRIME

                  Jesus Christ was cruified for a victimless crime

                  by the same cats that been in the cross building business since the beginning of time.

                  Now Pilate couldn't see anything Jesus had done wrong

                  but he washed his hands of the matter after he did what was politicaly expedient to get along.

                  Groovy Man

                  by the Cool Cat

                  www.thecoolcat.net



                  I have heard in medieval Europe the big cities were almost all Christian, whereas the rural areas often were in fact pagan, but nominally were orthodox Christians to avoid persecution.

                  The comments by Nietzsche on the will to power certainly explains the essence of institutionalized Christianity.

                  Or as the old Indian saying"White man speak with forked tongue".

                  I have heard that Indians had a totally different kind of political system.

                  Instead of shady deals in smoke filled rooms, the elders meditated or smoked a pipe of peyote and waited for the great spirit to speak thru who ever it did.

                  Peace to all,

                  Tom



                  Bill,

                  I just thought of a Dylan song representing a return to nature an leaving the falseness of our conditioning.
                  "The Lotusts Cried"





                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: William
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 12:32 PM
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: I dunno


                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "rwr" <dick.richardson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I have no idea Bill, interesting though innit, and I doubt if it is a
                  > very common name, like wot my bog standard name is. I like Russian names
                  > best, Oh yeah and I love those North American Indian names (many of them
                  > were from Russia so I read) - they sound like poetry to me. I think
                  > I have a great affinity with the old injuns. When we were kids playing
                  > the back streets of London during the war and we played cowboys and
                  > injuns I always wanted to be an injun wid a hos and a bow and arrows :-
                  > )))) Why don't you check it out and let me know. Fascinating.
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >Dick, Here in my office I have many native artifacts, bows, arrows, rabbit club, tom tom and a ceremonial spear. My wife is of indian origin and my father has fox blood. Your English ancestors ,even the ancient ones, were much advanced from native americans.I recently visited the American Indian Museum at the Smithsonian. Many indians work there and they are happy to relate the stone age life of their people. In physical terms they were most simple but in metaphysical terms they were giants. With no written language they were verbal and artifact grounded. They were in nature and I can see how your mysticism dovetails with theirs. I have met their medicine men . I think religion came from such natural and humble origins. What it turned into in Europe is one of the travesties of man. An old medicine man of the Taos told me that if the spanish had not come his people would not have changed and after the europeans leave the Taos will return to the old life. They do not think in centuries or decades, only seasons. It was the season to harvest the rabbits and the elder explained that the handles on the rabbit club grew longer when used from horseback. He considered hunting from horseback unfair as rabbits are not afraid of horses. I therefore purchased a short handled rabbit club. My wife and I move easily amoung the tribes as we can feel the ancient and deep peace amoung them. Yes, you would do well with them. Bill
                  > > Dick, There is a creek in northern Misouri named the Mulchinock creek.
                  > Did that wealthy family move to Misouri?Bill
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • shadowed_statue
                  ... Tom, Your views on religion are consistent, and often annoying. The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so ludicrous it
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                    > As I have stated before I understand institutionlized Christianity was created by adulterating paganism to transform religion from a means of communion and empowerment to a means of social control. However, Carl Jung maintained that to understand the psychic split in the western mind we have to understand we came too fast too soon. After the barbarians overran Rome, in less than a century the descendents of the marauding barbarians had been transformed from nomadic hunting tribes, who when the opportunity arose loved nothing better than overrunning a city, and partying for about a month as they could skip hunting and enjoy the new women, drink, smoke herbs etc into God fearing Christian peasants. So scaring the hell out of people was the essence of inistutionalized Christianity.Of course scaring wives was as important as scaring barbarians. Doing so made paternal succesion something u could believe in, which help create strong family bonds for powerful enduring groups. I suspect that early Christianity was initilly a resurgence of a form of paganism. The deep friendship and many say erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdelin, as well as Jesus taking up for the woman taken in sin, references to the birds of the field, and always teaching in meadows, on mountaintops etc is indicative of a breaking free of the many rules of Judism.

                    Tom, Your views on religion are consistent, and often annoying. The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so ludicrous it destroys the inner meaning of the faith. Fairly obviously, we are not going to make progress by discussing this point, because your focus is on a generalised sweep of historic institutions, and mine is the Kierkegaardian theme of the single believer, an existential endeavour that does not bow to the needs of potentates and princes. I wish to put my objection on record, that your impression of what "many say" is depressingly misleading. Having said that, by all means come back at me if you wish. We might be able to discuss around the subject, even if we cannot make headway when we appear to be referring to quite different phenomena. There is a difference between Christendom and Christian faith. Louise
                  • Mary
                    If this were an existential topic I d take you on, Louise. Alas, it is not. Mary ... The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
                      If this were an existential topic I'd take you on, Louise. Alas, it is not. Mary

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "shadowed_statue" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:

                      The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so ludicrous it destroys the inner meaning of the faith.
                    • shadowed_statue
                      Mary, Of course it is an existential topic, the matter of individual faith. Discussion about Kierkegaard has never made much progress at this group.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
                        Mary, Of course it is an existential topic, the matter of individual faith. Discussion about Kierkegaard has never made much progress at this group. Feelings have so long gone unrespected here, when it is a matter of truly understanding what spirituality may include. My mind is impaired at present, and I can write nothing further. Louise

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <mary.josie59@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If this were an existential topic I'd take you on, Louise. Alas, it is not. Mary
                        >
                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "shadowed_statue" <hecubatoher@> wrote:
                        >
                        > The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so ludicrous it destroys the inner meaning of the faith.
                        >
                      • tom
                        Louise, I like a quote from George Soros that our ideas of reality will never be totally correct, but hopefully both individually and collectively we can
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
                          Louise,

                          I like a quote from George Soros that our ideas of reality will never be totally correct, but hopefully both individually and collectively we can gradually get our concepts closer to reality.I believe as an individual over the course of my life I have gradually got closer to truth. As for the reality of anybody who lived thousands of years ago, there is little certainty about their lives and ideas. If something happens on Main Street yesterday, the accounts we receive are distorted by both purposeful bias as well as errors of observation, memory etc. How much more so the further back we go into time. So I presume we all project a good bit of our own inner inclinations, values etc onto any of the myths. Here are a few quotes by Thomas Jefferson I feel a kinship for
                          . I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies. - Jefferson

                          . "his [Jesus'] principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind - Jefferson

                          The clergy . have been . against the civil and religious rights of man. - Jefferson

                          "The Christian God is a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust" Jefferson


                          I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
                          -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789


                          These quotes are very much in line with my thoughts and intuitions on not only Christianity but all organized religion. I believe all religions were founded on new insights and visions by mystically inclined individuals, but soon are transformed into static creeds that more and more reflect the wills to power of various political, economic, and social groups. Carl Jung said "Thank God I am not a Jungian, I can always change my mind."

                          This Nietzsche quote fits very well into my ideas

                          Change of Cast. -- As soon as a religion comes to dominate it has as its opponents all those who would have been its first disciples.

                          from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.118, R.J. Hollingdale transl.

                          The original ideas were the product of a person looking within for truth, but in a short time they become creeds that are substitutes for introspection. As Bruce Lee said at the end of Jeet Kun Do. If anyone says Jeet Ken Do is different from this and that let the name be forgotten, because that is all it is is a name. I forget now the exact name of the council, but around 4 or 5 hundred A.D. a council was held and reincarnation was voted out. That seems to me to fit into Jung's ideas that to understand the psyche of western peoples we must understand the fact that it was necesary to create a very black and white creed to civilize out ancestors who were primative tribes of roving hunting tribes. Carl Jung maintained the east had thousands of years to integrate the instinctive with the ideal; whereas our situation demanded things like reincarnation be done away wigh for an eternal hell. It was thought that only the fear of some bad lives in the future was not enough to deter the invading barbarians fron their instinctive patterns of murdering, raping and looting.

                          Naturally, thinkers we admire are to a certain extent reflecting archtypical thinking that is congruent with the archtypes that are emerging within our own psyche, so I can not claim any dogmatic certainty that I am totally right, but all I can say is that these are ideas that my outer observations and inner intuitions lead me toward.



                          Peace,

                          Tom





                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: shadowed_statue
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 6:32 PM
                          Subject: [existlist] Re: I dunno



                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                          > As I have stated before I understand institutionlized Christianity was created by adulterating paganism to transform religion from a means of communion and empowerment to a means of social control. However, Carl Jung maintained that to understand the psychic split in the western mind we have to understand we came too fast too soon. After the barbarians overran Rome, in less than a century the descendents of the marauding barbarians had been transformed from nomadic hunting tribes, who when the opportunity arose loved nothing better than overrunning a city, and partying for about a month as they could skip hunting and enjoy the new women, drink, smoke herbs etc into God fearing Christian peasants. So scaring the hell out of people was the essence of inistutionalized Christianity.Of course scaring wives was as important as scaring barbarians. Doing so made paternal succesion something u could believe in, which help create strong family bonds for powerful enduring groups. I suspect that early Christianity was initilly a resurgence of a form of paganism. The deep friendship and many say erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdelin, as well as Jesus taking up for the woman taken in sin, references to the birds of the field, and always teaching in meadows, on mountaintops etc is indicative of a breaking free of the many rules of Judism.

                          Tom, Your views on religion are consistent, and often annoying. The idea of an erotic relationship between Jesus and Mary Magdalen is so ludicrous it destroys the inner meaning of the faith. Fairly obviously, we are not going to make progress by discussing this point, because your focus is on a generalised sweep of historic institutions, and mine is the Kierkegaardian theme of the single believer, an existential endeavour that does not bow to the needs of potentates and princes. I wish to put my objection on record, that your impression of what "many say" is depressingly misleading. Having said that, by all means come back at me if you wish. We might be able to discuss around the subject, even if we cannot make headway when we appear to be referring to quite different phenomena. There is a difference between Christendom and Christian faith. Louise





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • shadowed_statue
                          ... Tom, I guess this is how I feel about people s unofficial religions, including all that working class hero sort of stuff. The trouble with original
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                            > The original ideas were the product of a person looking within for truth, but in a short time they become creeds that are substitutes for introspection.

                            Tom, I guess this is how I feel about people's unofficial religions, including all that "working class hero" sort of stuff. The trouble with original ideas is that they often lead to a massed assault on the originator, which may take a very civilised form, such as a jury trial and a dose of hemlock, or a well-organised auto-da-fe. Or, coming closer to the present, a camp for purposes of re-education. As Solzhenitsyn pointed out, the peoples of the West will only learn about totalitarian ideas by hard experience. Louise
                          • tom
                            Louise, I agree wholeheartedly with you there. That is my point that as religions become institutionalized they will tend to transform themselves into public
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 1, 2009
                              Louise,

                              I agree wholeheartedly with you there. That is my point that as religions become institutionalized they will tend to transform themselves into public relations tools for the dominant powers. Most people prefer to avoid crucifictions, burnings at the stake etc. I have heard it said that in medieval times if heresies broke out and there were many reports of helings etc., the Inquisition would get busy. If the new schools of thought were not making many breakthroughs, the popes, cardinals etc would just let it die of its own weakness. As long as a rigid dogma upholds the political, economic and social structures, heresy is seen by all these powers as a danger to them being perceived as ordained by God. The Holy Roman Empire was justified to the masses on the basis that the Pope received his authority from God, and in turn passed it down to kings, lords etc. When Henry the 8th broke with Rome, the new mindset was substituting the king and in his daughter's case the queen for the pope to create more nationalism.
                              Tom


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: shadowed_statue
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 10:28 PM
                              Subject: [existlist] Re: I dunno


                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                              > The original ideas were the product of a person looking within for truth, but in a short time they become creeds that are substitutes for introspection.

                              Tom, I guess this is how I feel about people's unofficial religions, including all that "working class hero" sort of stuff. The trouble with original ideas is that they often lead to a massed assault on the originator, which may take a very civilised form, such as a jury trial and a dose of hemlock, or a well-organised auto-da-fe. Or, coming closer to the present, a camp for purposes of re-education. As Solzhenitsyn pointed out, the peoples of the West will only learn about totalitarian ideas by hard experience. Louise





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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