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Re: [existlist] One hand clapping

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  • tom
    Bill, I guess it could be said that without an ear to hear, there would still be the vibrations that an ear processes to experience as sound. It is quite
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 16, 2009
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      Bill,

      I guess it could be said that without an ear to hear, there would still be the vibrations that an ear processes to experience as sound. It is quite likely that various life forms process vibrations thru different senses. Obviously homing pidgeons are in tune with frequencies of some type that guide them. I've heard people allege that cats often appear to be reacting to stimuli that is not apparent to humans. In certain animal styles of kung fu, students perform animal forms and do various things to connect themselves with the spirit of the animal in question.


      There is a feeling that a piece is missing in these sort of occurrences. It is disquieting as a possible outcome is being squashed to death. For me the fascination is visceral. Bill

      stery.....Quotes

      Mystery creates wonder and wonder is the basis of man's desire to understand. --Neil Armstrong

      The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed. --Albert Einstein

      We wake, if ever at all, to mystery. --Annie Dillard

      As soon as man does not take his existence for granted, but beholds it as something unfathomably mysterious, thought begins. --Albert Schweitzer


      I said in a recent post, that mythologies can be taken in a dogmatic fundamentalist sense, or in a mythological inner directed sense. The myth of the fall from the Garden of Eden can be seen as a commentary on the evolution of homo sapien from our primal ancestors. Eating from the Tree of Knowledge can be seen as the beginnings of the capicity to think, plan and imagine. Obviously this transformation had survival value, if you think of the rapid rise in human population in the last hundred years or so, and the decline in the numbers of so many other species of animals,insects, etc. But in the process of developing our cognitive powers, our sensory motor powers have declined. What we call a superstar athlete is really moving with an animal grace that is ordinary in animals and insects.The success of blacks in sports is a good bit attrubable to their gene pool and cultural past was aboriginal, where sensory and motor powers were more predominant. I recall reading about Thoreau recalling an experience he had with an indian in the woods. The indian say some animal he wanted to eat, and began giving out some sound to which the animal was responding. Thoreau commented that he felt the indian and the animal were sharing a primal reality, which he as a white man was cutoff from. Many visionaries have postulated that what we call human conciousness might be a rocky transition stage in the evolution of the species we call human. Certainly eastern disciples like kung fu tai chi etc seek to reunite the alienated intellect and will with more primal parts of the person.


      Peace,
      Tom
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: bhvwd
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:29 PM
      Subject: [existlist] One hand clapping


      Bookdoc, You bring forward an interesting set of questions. Without someone to hear is there a sound? I recently experienced another related example of the happening. A huge branch fell from an ancient white oak in my back yard. The tree surgeon and I pieced together the sequence of events that preceded the event. There had been a heavy wind storm the night before the fall. I was sitting inside with the AC on and little sound coming in from the outside. I saw what appeared to be a great movement of wind and then my fence was smashed to the ground by two huge branches. Immediately my neighbors rang my doorbell as they had been outside and had heard the fall but could not see it. So, I did not hear it, they did not see it ,but when we walked around to the back yard it certainly had happened. The damage to my fence and eve spout was real and the great branch was hung up thirty feet up in the tree.
      I see this as one of several related situations. The sound of one hand clapping is nothing.
      Years ago on a canoe trip we rounded a bend and heard a deep rumbling pop and then saw a huge cottonwood crash into the river. Had it happened twenty seconds later we would have been squished like bugs. This is much different than one hand clapping as we needed to portage to continue. We heard and saw the happening.
      In this most recent case some heard it but did not see, I saw but did not hear but all agreed it happened.
      There is a feeling that a piece is missing in these sort of occurrences. It is disquieting as a possible outcome is being squashed to death. For me the fascination is visceral. Bill





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    • bhvwd
      Tom, You tacked toward the ancient but added a personal ,modern human psychological explanation to the old Yin yang totality. Surprisingly Dick proposed the
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 16, 2009
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        Tom, You tacked toward the ancient but added a personal ,modern human psychological explanation to the old Yin yang totality. Surprisingly Dick proposed the most scientific reaction. Since I was personally involved in two of the examples my objectivity comes from different perspective. When it is your ass in the balance your reaction should change. Not too scientific of me but I am still cutting up wood.
        Bookdoc does not accept his own existence and therefore accepts a no hands approach. The idea that it does not matter if we are here or not hints at the nihilistic bent those of the existential idea base exhibit. Since you cannot hear anything if it did not happen Bookdoc has the most safe concept but we were talking about multiple examples. The sound of one hand clapping is no sound. The other examples were decidedly loud. My neighbors said it sounded like a freight train.
        Today I read the Obit of a professor friend who was an odd mixture of biologist and Mormon bishop. He was an apparently well man who died without known cause. I would have had difficulty living in his skin but he played it quite nicely.
        Until the tree falls on you there is no sound and what is the sound of your skull being crushed. ? Bill
      • tom
        Bill, No doubt there is big, damn difference between looking at a lion in his cage from the outside, and from the inside.. From the inside its a totally
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 16, 2009
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          Bill,

          No doubt there is big, damn difference between looking at a lion in his cage from the outside, and from the inside.. From the inside its a totally different experience, since all our primal survival programs are activated. This also explains much of the difference between the Archy Bunkers and the economic elites. If u or your loved ones arent threatened, its much easier to have a very idealistic view on something. Way back when Georghe Wallace was still a segregationist he appeared on Meet The Press and I heard he brought up the fact that either the panel or the vast majority of Washington lawmakers sent their kids to private schools. Many times the media spins differences in attitudes between affluent people and working class types as if all the difference in views is caused by differences in education, intelligence, and sensitivity. Some of it undoubtedly is, but there is also the inside/outside cage dicotomy.
          There is also the saying"U had to be there".

          Tom
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: bhvwd
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:08 PM
          Subject: [existlist] One hand clapping


          Tom, You tacked toward the ancient but added a personal ,modern human psychological explanation to the old Yin yang totality. Surprisingly Dick proposed the most scientific reaction. Since I was personally involved in two of the examples my objectivity comes from different perspective. When it is your ass in the balance your reaction should change. Not too scientific of me but I am still cutting up wood.
          Bookdoc does not accept his own existence and therefore accepts a no hands approach. The idea that it does not matter if we are here or not hints at the nihilistic bent those of the existential idea base exhibit. Since you cannot hear anything if it did not happen Bookdoc has the most safe concept but we were talking about multiple examples. The sound of one hand clapping is no sound. The other examples were decidedly loud. My neighbors said it sounded like a freight train.
          Today I read the Obit of a professor friend who was an odd mixture of biologist and Mormon bishop. He was an apparently well man who died without known cause. I would have had difficulty living in his skin but he played it quite nicely.
          Until the tree falls on you there is no sound and what is the sound of your skull being crushed. ? Bill





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        • tom
          Bill, I think a big point in the question if there is a sound when no one hears it is that sound is the result of an ear processing certain vibrations. The
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 16, 2009
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            Bill,

            I think a big point in the question if there is a sound when no one hears it is that sound is the result of an ear processing certain vibrations. The same can be said of color. Without eyes there would be no color. Certainly the vibrations that are procesed as various colors exist without an eye to see them, but the color of something like the sound does not exist unless there is an eye to see it. Of course, an animal or insect ear would create auditory experiences in response to certain vibrations and the visual system would create a view in regard to the various energy. Many animals are color blind I understand, and I think among humans there are gradations of visual sensitivity. I think I heard that women have been found as a group to have some superiority over men in distinguishing subtle shades. Of course, I suspect that there are multitudes of sensory input that are received by various species of animals, birds, fish, insecys, bacterias, germs etc that we can not even imagine.

            In the sixties I understand that with the developement of various antibiotics it was believed that man's battle with microbiological enemies had been won. Certainly since the invention of penecilin as well as various vacinations many age old plagues had been largely conquered. Then u started hearing of returning Vietnam vets with cases of gonoreah that were increasingly resistant to antibiotics.By the early 80s the first reports of AUDS came out, and in over 28 years the virus continues to rage. I think the optimism of the 60s over man's wins over germs was based on the paradigmn that we were fighting a static opponent. However, germs and viruses have powers to adapt in a short time since they have such relatively brief individual lives.The pattern of AIDS viruses in many cases to stay recessive for a long period of time certainly works out handily since a HIV posative person who is still relatively healthy is more likely to spread the disease. Diseases like 3rd world people are not as easy to subdue as high tech optimists might hope. As for 3rd world people being more difficult to defeat by a superpower look at the US experience in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and the USSR debacle in Afghanistan. Interestingly western media depicted the Afghan resistance as freedom fighters then and psycho terrorists now.

            Tom


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: bhvwd
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:08 PM
            Subject: [existlist] One hand clapping


            Tom, You tacked toward the ancient but added a personal ,modern human psychological explanation to the old Yin yang totality. Surprisingly Dick proposed the most scientific reaction. Since I was personally involved in two of the examples my objectivity comes from different perspective. When it is your ass in the balance your reaction should change. Not too scientific of me but I am still cutting up wood.
            Bookdoc does not accept his own existence and therefore accepts a no hands approach. The idea that it does not matter if we are here or not hints at the nihilistic bent those of the existential idea base exhibit. Since you cannot hear anything if it did not happen Bookdoc has the most safe concept but we were talking about multiple examples. The sound of one hand clapping is no sound. The other examples were decidedly loud. My neighbors said it sounded like a freight train.
            Today I read the Obit of a professor friend who was an odd mixture of biologist and Mormon bishop. He was an apparently well man who died without known cause. I would have had difficulty living in his skin but he played it quite nicely.
            Until the tree falls on you there is no sound and what is the sound of your skull being crushed. ? Bill





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          • Knott
            ... That is all fine if science is correct. Personally, I m not sure. But even so, sound is something we define. I use we loosely. But just as I can t tell
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 17, 2009
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              > I guess it could be said that without an ear to hear, there
              > would still be the vibrations that an ear processes to
              > experience as sound.

              That is all fine if science is correct. Personally, I'm not sure. But even so, sound is something we define. I use 'we' loosely. But just as I can't tell what you hear, I can't tell if a bird is seeing sound, hearing color. You can make those assumptions if you want to. I don't know that trees make a sound beyond it being something that we tend to agree is sound. The deaf may argue.

              But more than just hearing and seeing, if I do not exist, neither does anything or anyone. You might not like that conceptually. But if there is not I, there is not perception, and for all intents and purposes, following that line of logic, you do not exist. The world requires me. I can't say that certainly nothing exists outside of me, but I can say from this perspective that if there were no perspective, there would be no world. No sound. No clap. No hands. From my perspective...and I think it is the only one that matters...the world vanishes if I cannot perceive it.

              > The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed. --Albert Einstein

              It must be so deadening to know everything. I know nothing, and it keeps being a wonder.

              Spiral Lines
            • mary.josie59
              Knott, I suspect that we exist now while we re alive but when we die/don t exist the world does the same, for us who are dead. If we are currently perceiving
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 18, 2009
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                Knott,

                I suspect that we exist now while we're "alive" but when we die/don't exist the world does the same, for us who are dead. If we are currently perceiving the world while we're alive, it exists. That's about it, I think. If I correctly recall your past ideas on this topic, existence itself is up for grabs?

                My existential-ethical take on existence concerns how we affect those who are not yet dead, responsibility toward the future, etc. It's a quandry to ponder. Guess it won't bother me much after I'm dead, but what I do now might have consequences of some consequence, maybe.

                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Knott" <knott12@...> wrote:
                But more than just hearing and seeing, if I do not exist, neither does anything or anyone. You might not like that conceptually. But if there is not I, there is not perception, and for all intents and purposes, following that line of logic, you do not exist. The world requires me. I can't say that certainly nothing exists outside of me, but I can say from this perspective that if there were no perspective, there would be no world. No sound. No clap. No hands. From my perspective...and I think it is the only one that matters...the world vanishes if I cannot perceive it.
              • Knott
                ... I m perhaps not clear. I suspect that if I never existed, it is really like the world never did, didn t, doesn t, do-n t, willn t. That is, say there is an
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 18, 2009
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                  > I suspect that we exist now while we're "alive" but when
                  > we die/don't exist the world does the same, for us who
                  > are dead. If we are currently perceiving the world while
                  > we're alive, it exists. That's about it, I think. If I
                  > correctly recall your past ideas on this topic, existence
                  > itself is up for grabs?

                  I'm perhaps not clear. I suspect that if I never existed, it is really like the world never did, didn't, doesn't, do-n't, willn't. That is, say there is an imaginary figmafog. This figmafog only exists in my imagination. Now, say, I was never born. No figmafog.

                  I am not interested in the idea that someone else might fagmortifortigate a figmafog. It never would matter. If I do not have perspective on it, it does not exist -- whether it thinks it does or not. I mean, I don't believe in you...or your imagination.

                  Outta DeLabrynthe
                • mary.josie59
                  Somewhat clearer. I have some hurdles in understanding your comments. First, I can t follow the leap from if I never existed to the world never did. Can t
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 21, 2009
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                    Somewhat clearer. I have some hurdles in understanding your comments. First, I can't follow the leap from "if I never existed" to the "world never did." Can't it exist without you, at least in the imagination of others? Second, if I imagine that you believe in me or my imagination, then you believe in me in my imagination. Third, one doesn't have to believe in what they imagine or talk to; they can doubt what they imagine and still imagine or talk to/with it.

                    Mary

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Knott" <knott12@...> wrote:

                    I'm perhaps not clear. I suspect that if I never existed, it is really like the world never did, didn't, doesn't, do-n't, willn't. That is, say there is an imaginary figmafog. This figmafog only exists in my imagination. Now, say, I was never born. No figmafog.

                    I am not interested in the idea that someone else might fagmortifortigate a figmafog. It never would matter. If I do not have perspective on it, it does not exist -- whether it thinks it does or not. I mean, I don't believe in you...or your imagination.

                    Outta DeLabrynthe
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