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Essential and extant

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  • bhvwd
    One of billions seems a tiny fraction to be called essential. I do not see the human race as essential to the cosmos . Being essential would seem to me as
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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      One of billions seems a tiny fraction to be called essential. I do not see the human race as essential to the cosmos . Being essential would seem to me as being everlasting and that is just not the case. I have seen too many bodies to harbour any illusions as to immortality.
      In fact we are at this time alone in the cosmos.If there are others they are too distant to know or communicate . We see extinction of various species all around us and extinction would seem the final norm. I do agree with Dick that the competition for essentials has always been the great prod of existence. We evolve into some vaguely defined niche and then compete there for survival until external factors force drastic, perhaps deadly change. If things go well Dick has twenty years to live, I have perhaps thirty. In that short period I see little chance he or I will convince the many ,many believers to come to our standard of knowing. But I roundly agree that knowing is superior to believing.Dick, I view you as having a very personal brand of existentialism based on your lived and examined experiences. That is why I ask you to write in the present because it is well done when you try.
      I really do not see how Louise can be anything but an agnostic and SK makes logical sense for her. She is not a scientist like you and I ,Dick. Her standards cannot be the same as you and I.
      The extended conversation I had with the Danish Ag minister gave me proof that an active and evolving modernism is taking place on the continent. I am not despairing of actual progress is being made by Europeans and I think I can see a definite existential thrust to the movement. I do not see such progress as being essential some might survive even if we resort to barbarism.
      At any rate our twenty or thirty years I hope goes pleasantly and excessive rancor seems self defeating especially if we are talking about philosophy. Living well is the best revenge and that goes farther than just materialism. To be comfortable in the cosmos before it eats you up is in itself a slight of hand trick. I will attempt it even if the smile is at time forced. Good conversation I consider it positive and rewarding. Thanks, Bill
    • tom
      Hi Bill, You wrote . I do agree with Dick that the competition for essentials has always been the great prod of existence. We evolve into some vaguely defined
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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        Hi Bill,

        You wrote

        . I do agree with Dick that the competition for essentials has always been the great prod of existence. We evolve into some vaguely defined niche and then compete there for survival until external factors force drastic, perhaps deadly change.

        Interestingly, in US and Europe today with various forms of welfare and assistance, competition for essentials is no longer a factor in natural selection. Certainly in the USA, the segments of the population on public assistance generally reproduce at a much higher rate than other segments that are much more economically fit for the environment.I am not arguing for or against such agenda, but merely stating that the paradigms that apply to natural selection in nature, the third world, and up to maybe the New Deal days in the US are no longer relevent for natural selection among humans in the more developed parts of the world.Hopefully, evolution of humans can move from natural selection to various means of furthering human physical, social, and psychological evolution. Certainly, the task of humanity for the next century is to attempt to increase our wisdom as rapidly as we increase our technology.


        A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.
        Albert Einstein

        "Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal.Einstein

        This next Einstein quote doesn't particularly fit this discussion, but I'll share it anyway.

        A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?
        Albert Einstein

        Peace,
        Tom

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: bhvwd
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 3:38 PM
        Subject: [existlist] Essential and extant


        One of billions seems a tiny fraction to be called essential. I do not see the human race as essential to the cosmos . Being essential would seem to me as being everlasting and that is just not the case. I have seen too many bodies to harbour any illusions as to immortality.
        In fact we are at this time alone in the cosmos.If there are others they are too distant to know or communicate . We see extinction of various species all around us and extinction would seem the final norm. I do agree with Dick that the competition for essentials has always been the great prod of existence. We evolve into some vaguely defined niche and then compete there for survival until external factors force drastic, perhaps deadly change. If things go well Dick has twenty years to live, I have perhaps thirty. In that short period I see little chance he or I will convince the many ,many believers to come to our standard of knowing. But I roundly agree that knowing is superior to believing.Dick, I view you as having a very personal brand of existentialism based on your lived and examined experiences. That is why I ask you to write in the present because it is well done when you try.
        I really do not see how Louise can be anything but an agnostic and SK makes logical sense for her. She is not a scientist like you and I ,Dick. Her standards cannot be the same as you and I.
        The extended conversation I had with the Danish Ag minister gave me proof that an active and evolving modernism is taking place on the continent. I am not despairing of actual progress is being made by Europeans and I think I can see a definite existential thrust to the movement. I do not see such progress as being essential some might survive even if we resort to barbarism.
        At any rate our twenty or thirty years I hope goes pleasantly and excessive rancor seems self defeating especially if we are talking about philosophy. Living well is the best revenge and that goes farther than just materialism. To be comfortable in the cosmos before it eats you up is in itself a slight of hand trick. I will attempt it even if the smile is at time forced. Good conversation I consider it positive and rewarding. Thanks, Bill





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • bhvwd
        Tom, Your final Einstein quote is relevant. The line between sanity and convention is a function of human freedom. Our system, at its Jeffersonian roots
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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          Tom, Your final Einstein quote is relevant. The line between sanity and convention is a function of human freedom. Our system, at its Jeffersonian roots assumes personal freedom more important than doctrine or belief. You can have beliefs and slave to doctrine but it will only make you less competitive, more at risk. It is an honest rewards system and endures as such. When intelligent individuals find themselves faced with systematic failure they may at first check their basic sanity but passing that basic test the system must be suspected. Boomers were taught by their militarily imprinted parents that the system was the equal of the divine right of kings. It was not to be questioned and was to be obeyed. Most of them were and still are ignorant servants of false gods. Then again the system has worked for them but they are almost gone.
          It is time for the philosophy to change. It will happen to we medium old, but we have an existential duty to bury the excreta of our predecessors. I would think of that as being a laudable goal that might redeem our despicable image to the other generations. We have explained what we did , now we must show why, why we rebelled, why we forced change on a static system. Why the system was then and still is a sham of mystical beliefs and non rational prejudices needs to be explained. I see modern existential philosophical concepts as are evolving today in europe to be a vanguard assault on the future. Bill
        • dick.richardson@ymail.com
          Try reading it again. I do not recall saying that humanity was essential to creation. It is a bit deeper than that. Humanity is a pain the arse actually and it
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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            Try reading it again. I do not recall saying that humanity was essential
            to creation. It is a bit deeper than that. Humanity is a pain the arse
            actually and it seems to me that the place would be better off without
            it – lest they grow up of course.



            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > One of billions seems a tiny fraction to be called essential.....


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • tom
            Bill, I read a Jefferson quote where he said what does it matter if your neighbor worships one God or 12 Gods if hes a good neighbor . About 5 or 5 years ago,
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 31, 2009
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              Bill,

              I read a Jefferson quote where he said "what does it matter if your neighbor worships one God or 12 Gods if hes a good neighbor". About 5 or 5 years ago, I read of a Baptist minister running for a position in Indianapolis as a Libertarian. He said "if they can take away their beer cans, they can take away our bibles". The essence of dogma is the ability to use force to crush alternative views. For over a 1000 years, the Holy Roman Empire burned dissenters at the steak. Stalinst Russia dealt with disenters from Communist Dogma by putting them in gulags etc.

              In the mid 80s, I heard Joseph Cambell speak at University of Memphis, and I recall Cambell saying that the youth rebellion against Nam was unusual, since earlier generations were conditioned to accept without question such things.Recall the line from the "Charge of the Light Brigade" "Not for us to question why. For us to do or die". Of course, the incompatibility of individual freedom and continuous military endeavors is one of the main reasons Jefferson and Washinton believed in friendship with all, trade with all, entangling alliances with none. Obviously, military efficiency does favor one cortex and everyone else the cerebellum. If u look at the numbers, the Nazis had a very effective military machine for the men and resources they had.

              Peace,
              Tom
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: bhvwd
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 9:23 PM
              Subject: [existlist] Essential and extant


              Tom, Your final Einstein quote is relevant. The line between sanity and convention is a function of human freedom. Our system, at its Jeffersonian roots assumes personal freedom more important than doctrine or belief. You can have beliefs and slave to doctrine but it will only make you less competitive, more at risk. It is an honest rewards system and endures as such. When intelligent individuals find themselves faced with systematic failure they may at first check their basic sanity but passing that basic test the system must be suspected. Boomers were taught by their militarily imprinted parents that the system was the equal of the divine right of kings. It was not to be questioned and was to be obeyed. Most of them were and still are ignorant servants of false gods. Then again the system has worked for them but they are almost gone.
              It is time for the philosophy to change. It will happen to we medium old, but we have an existential duty to bury the excreta of our predecessors. I would think of that as being a laudable goal that might redeem our despicable image to the other generations. We have explained what we did , now we must show why, why we rebelled, why we forced change on a static system. Why the system was then and still is a sham of mystical beliefs and non rational prejudices needs to be explained. I see modern existential philosophical concepts as are evolving today in europe to be a vanguard assault on the future. Bill





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