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Re: [existlist] Some death to celebrate

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  • tom
    Bill, You write I think we are ending this era with full pay back for the 9/11 attack. That it is happening in the swat valley is strangely coincidental.
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 25, 2009
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      Bill,

      You write

      I think we are ending this era with full pay back for the 9/11 attack. That it is happening in the swat valley is strangely coincidental. Special Weapons And Tactics indeed!This attack was old tech ,the aircraft had a pilot. The enemy really hates the new stuff it makes them live in caves but infantry is flushing them out. I think it is unstoppable now so I plan to enjoy the spectacle. it couldn`t happen to nicer people.Bill

      I bet for every terrorist the US has killed, weve killed 10 or 20 people who have nothing more to do with it than u or I. I think Soros said in his book on war on terror that we call them terrorists for killing civilians, but weve killed lot more than 3000 civilians in our war on terror.
      Tom


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: bhvwd
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:18 AM
      Subject: [existlist] Some death to celebrate





      After I woke up from my health debate nap I saw a film clip from Afganistan. The commentator warned that it would be graphic and it was . You had to know what you were looking at. It came from a camera in a gun ship. The accompaning audio was of the pilot setting up for his shot. The video showed a line of armed men moving in total darkness through a wilderness path. They obviously could not see or hear the chopper. When the mini gun went off they tried to run but it was far too late. The first fighters,at the end of the column, were literally blown into chunks. They had no idea what hit them. The rest were blown into oblivion with the lead two running to attempt escape. One was hit so hard he appeared to burn up in place, he disentagrated in place. The other just fell dead.
      I think we are ending this era with full pay back for the 9/11 attack. That it is happening in the swat valley is strangely coincidental. Special Weapons And Tactics indeed!This attack was old tech ,the aircraft had a pilot. The enemy really hates the new stuff it makes them live in caves but infantry is flushing them out. I think it is unstoppable now so I plan to enjoy the spectacle. it couldn`t happen to nicer people.Bill





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • mary.josie59
      Tom, When you go to war, if you don t convince your enemy you ll do everything possible to defeat him, why bother? Mary ... I bet for every terrorist the US
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 25, 2009
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        Tom,

        When you go to war, if you don't convince your enemy you'll do everything possible to defeat him, why bother?

        Mary

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:

        I bet for every terrorist the US has killed, weve killed 10 or 20 people who
        have nothing more to do with it than u or I. I think Soros said in his book on
        war on terror that we call them terrorists for killing civilians, but weve
        killed lot more than 3000 civilians in our war on terror.
      • bhvwd
        ... I do what I need to, I ain t no volunteer. I only been recruited once and that was by the best.Cincinnatus is a hero of mine and some day I hope to see
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 25, 2009
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > You write
          >
          > I think we are ending this era with full pay back for the 9/11 attack. That it is happening in the swat valley is strangely coincidental. Special Weapons And Tactics indeed!This attack was old tech ,the aircraft had a pilot. The enemy really hates the new stuff it makes them live in caves but infantry is flushing them out. I think it is unstoppable now so I plan to enjoy the spectacle. it couldn`t happen to nicer people.Bill
          >
          > I bet for every terrorist the US has killed, weve killed 10 or 20 people who have nothing more to do with it than u or I. I think Soros said in his book on war on terror that we call them terrorists for killing civilians, but weve killed lot more than 3000 civilians in our war on terror.
          > Tom
          > Tom , You are a good cherry picker. Low fruit easy livin. I spent the evening with a Moshin Nagant job I put together and I been thinking about Dostoyevsky. The US Army taught me opposing weapons and as an officer I own some representative models.The Russian writers did more for freedom than any English or Irish philosopher. So we must look too them for further guidance. I had guidance one time but it was a snapper.
          I do what I need to, I ain't no volunteer. I only been recruited once and that was by the best.Cincinnatus is a hero of mine and some day I hope to see Rome. I have read cryptography's in Mexico but not Latin in the tongue given me by the nuns and priests. We lie, we change languages. We just bust ass to survive. To talk openly about it is philosophy and to speak topically of it is existentialism Bill
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: bhvwd
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:18 AM
          > Subject: [existlist] Some death to celebrate
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > After I woke up from my health debate nap I saw a film clip from Afganistan. The commentator warned that it would be graphic and it was . You had to know what you were looking at. It came from a camera in a gun ship. The accompaning audio was of the pilot setting up for his shot. The video showed a line of armed men moving in total darkness through a wilderness path. They obviously could not see or hear the chopper. When the mini gun went off they tried to run but it was far too late. The first fighters,at the end of the column, were literally blown into chunks. They had no idea what hit them. The rest were blown into oblivion with the lead two running to attempt escape. One was hit so hard he appeared to burn up in place, he disentagrated in place. The other just fell dead.
          > I think we are ending this era with full pay back for the 9/11 attack. That it is happening in the swat valley is strangely coincidental. Special Weapons And Tactics indeed!This attack was old tech ,the aircraft had a pilot. The enemy really hates the new stuff it makes them live in caves but infantry is flushing them out. I think it is unstoppable now so I plan to enjoy the spectacle. it couldn`t happen to nicer people.Bill
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • tom
          Mary, I understand where u r coming from, BUT Nazism could be rated high on the scale in terms of military efficiency. For the amounts of men and resourses
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 25, 2009
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            Mary,

            I understand where u r coming from, BUT Nazism could be rated high on the scale in terms of military efficiency. For the amounts of men and resourses they had available, the Nazi model kicked ass. If u look at any WW2 statistics, u find that the Germans killed many allies for every German killed. If Hitler hadn't gotten his brain totally fried on meth by the early 40s they might have won. We often hear the term "military dictatorship", and from purely militaristic objectives such an organization is quite efficient. The fact that totalatarian methods of organization have military advantages is in my opinion the main reason they have existed. Any philosophies that value freedom for the individual, whither secular like existensialism, or mystical like Gnosticism or the Quakers will tend to be seen as the devil by militaristic powers. The inherent conflict between a nation being free and being continually involved in military conflcts was quite apparent to guys like Jefferson and Washington. Both warned against entangling alliances. There is a Jefferson quote in which he is criticizing the idea of a national bank, saying it is as detrimental to the liberty of the citizens as a standing army. The continual connecting of US military forces around the world with freedom is in my opinion a great example of Orwellian Newspeak. Ron Paul said in 1 of the Repuiblican debates that 911 was blowback for 50 years of US policy in the mideast, and he asked how we'd like it if China was building numerlous military bases in Panama. Harry Browne in 2003 said in an article that if Bush tricked us into the Iraq War it wouldnt be any thing new. He then went on to mention the Tankin Incident in escalating the Vietnames War, the fact that the FDR administration provoked the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, Woodrow Wilson's failure to warn passengers on the Lucitana of Germany'swarning to him, and how Hearst and Pulitzer newspapers used "Remember the Maine" to start the Spanish American War, though very few historians believe Spain had anything to do with the Maine blowing up.



            Albert Einstein: War, Peace, Disarmament and Patriotism
            In two weeks the sheeplike masses of any country can be worked up by the newspapers into such a state of excited fury that men are prepared to put on uniforms and kill and be killed, for the sake of the sordid ends of a few interested parties. Compulsory military service seems to me the most disgraceful symptom of that deficiency in personal dignity from which civilized mankind is suffering today. (Albert Einstein, 1934)
            If unrestricted sacred egoism leads to dire consequences in economic life, it is still worse as a guide in international relations. The development of mechanical methods of warfare is such that human life will become intolerable if people do not discover before long a way of preventing war. The importance of this object is only equalled by the inadequacy of the attempts hitherto made to attain it. (Albert Einstein, 1930, Address To The Students' Disarmament Meeting)

            May I begin with an article of political faith? It runs as follows: the state is made for man, not man for the state. The same may be said of science. These are old sayings, coined by men for whom human personality has the highest human value. I should shrink from repeating them, were it not that they are forever threatening to fall into oblivion, particularly in these days of organisation and stereotypes. I regard it as the chief duty of the state to protect the individual and give him the opportunity to develop into a creative personality. (Albert Einstein, 1931, The Disarmament Conference of 1932)

            ..the greatest obstacle to international order is that monstrously exaggerated spirit of nationalism which also goes by the fair-sounding but misused name of patriotism. During the last century and a half this idol has acquired an uncanny and exceedingly pernicious power everywhere. (Albert Einstein, 1931)

            The introduction of compulsory military service is therefore, to my mind, the prime cause of the moral decay of the white race, which seriously threatens not merely the survival of our civilization but our very existence. (Albert Einstein, 1931)

            ... unfortunate national traditions which are handed on like a hereditary disease from generation to generation through the workings of the educational system. (Albert Einstein, 1931)

            Anybody who really wants to abolish war must resolutely declare himself in favour of his own country's resigning a portion of its sovereignty in favour of international institutions: he must be ready to make his own country amenable, in case of a dispute, to the award of an international court. He must, in the most uncompromising fashion, support disarmament all round, as is actually envisaged in the unfortunate Treaty of Versailles; unless military and aggressively patriotic education is abolished, we can hope for no progress. (Albert Einstein, published 1934)

            Letters To Friends Of Peace
            It has come to my knowledge that out of the greatness of your soul you are quietly accomplishing a splendid work, impelled by solicitude for humanity and its fate. Small is the number of them that see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts. But it is their strength that will decide whether the human race must relapse into that state of stupor which a deluded multitude appears today to regard as the ideal. (Albert Einstein, 1934)

            The armament industry is indeed one of the greatest dangers that beset mankind. It is the hidden evil power behind the nationalism which is rampant everywhere ... (Albert Einstein, 1934)






            UNIVERSAL SOLDIER
            Buffy Sainte-Marie
            © Caleb Music-ASCAP

            I wrote "Universal Soldier" in the basement of The Purple Onion coffee house in Toronto in the early sixties. It's about individual responsibility for war and how the old feudal thinking kills us all. Donovan had a hit with it in 1965.

            He's five feet two and he's six feet four
            He fights with missiles and with spears
            He's all of 31 and he's only 17
            He's been a soldier for a thousand years

            He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
            a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
            and he knows he shouldn't kill
            and he knows he always will
            kill you for me my friend and me for you

            And he's fighting for Canada,
            he's fighting for France,
            he's fighting for the USA,
            and he's fighting for the Russians
            and he's fighting for Japan,
            and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

            And he's fighting for Democracy
            and fighting for the Reds
            He says it's for the peace of all
            He's the one who must decide
            who's to live and who's to die
            and he never sees the writing on the walls

            But without him how would Hitler have
            condemned him at Dachau
            Without him Caesar would have stood alone
            He's the one who gives his body
            as a weapon to a war
            and without him all this killing can't go on

            He's the universal soldier and he
            really is to blame
            His orders come from far away no more
            They come from him, and you, and me
            and brothers can't you see
            this is not the way we put an end to war.


            "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

            --Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

            Peace,
            Tom


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: mary.josie59
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:09 PM
            Subject: [existlist] Re: Some death to celebrate





            Tom,

            When you go to war, if you don't convince your enemy you'll do everything possible to defeat him, why bother?

            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:

            I bet for every terrorist the US has killed, weve killed 10 or 20 people who
            have nothing more to do with it than u or I. I think Soros said in his book on
            war on terror that we call them terrorists for killing civilians, but weve
            killed lot more than 3000 civilians in our war on terror.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mary.josie59
            Tom, I don t philosophically support militarism anymore than I do racism, but I m aware that as a citizen of a nation, my government, as well as other
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 26, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Tom,

              I don't philosophically support militarism anymore than I do racism, but I'm aware that as a citizen of a nation, my government, as well as other individuals, will often take actions which I oppose, actions which inevitably crush and/or kill others pursuit of happiness. Actions with which my taxes have forced me to participate.

              I often speak on behalf of individuals who reinforce my radical interpretation of existentialism, namely those who, for whatever explanation or rationale, realize their conditioning and choices isolate them from family, friends, and neighbors. These might include those in occupations or vocations I wouldn't choose for myself. These might include those whose opinions differ greatly from mine. Are we saying an existentialist CAN'T be a soldier or cop? Are we saying ALL existentialists will find themselves marginalized into counter cultures MUST foment counter revolutions.

              Defending the right of minority opinion and dissent through demonstration and freedom of speech is a cornerstone of our republic and a tenet of existentialism. It is recognition and respect for alterity. Perhaps that isn't authentic, to defend positions I can't/don't/won't hold? If in the course of dialectic and discourse we "terminate" the voice of our philosophical opponent, they will find alternate means of expression, sometimes even less desirable than their opinion. Now, if you're actually very warlike about your opinion, termination is preferable. I think I like Derrida's Politics of Friendship.

              Maybe I'm too tolerant, too libera. I often find myself in a strangely tolerant mode of listening which isn't really that unusual for a mother of several. My experience with people is they expect and appreciate my ears but then in turn don't offer theirs to others. But that too is life, I suppose. Many things in life suck, but you can't control everything. I'm only sayin'.

              Mary

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Mary,
              >
              > I understand where u r coming from, BUT Nazism could be rated high on the scale in terms of military efficiency. For the amounts of men and resourses they had available, the Nazi model kicked ass. If u look at any WW2 statistics, u find that the Germans killed many allies for every German killed. If Hitler hadn't gotten his brain totally fried on meth by the early 40s they might have won. We often hear the term "military dictatorship", and from purely militaristic objectives such an organization is quite efficient. The fact that totalatarian methods of organization have military advantages is in my opinion the main reason they have existed. Any philosophies that value freedom for the individual, whither secular like existensialism, or mystical like Gnosticism or the Quakers will tend to be seen as the devil by militaristic powers. The inherent conflict between a nation being free and being continually involved in military conflcts was quite apparent to guys like Jefferson and Washington. Both warned against entangling alliances. There is a Jefferson quote in which he is criticizing the idea of a national bank, saying it is as detrimental to the liberty of the citizens as a standing army. The continual connecting of US military forces around the world with freedom is in my opinion a great example of Orwellian Newspeak. Ron Paul said in 1 of the Repuiblican debates that 911 was blowback for 50 years of US policy in the mideast, and he asked how we'd like it if China was building numerlous military bases in Panama. Harry Browne in 2003 said in an article that if Bush tricked us into the Iraq War it wouldnt be any thing new. He then went on to mention the Tankin Incident in escalating the Vietnames War, the fact that the FDR administration provoked the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, Woodrow Wilson's failure to warn passengers on the Lucitana of Germany'swarning to him, and how Hearst and Pulitzer newspapers used "Remember the Maine" to start the Spanish American War, though very few historians believe Spain had anything to do with the Maine blowing up.
              >
              >
              >
              > Albert Einstein: War, Peace, Disarmament and Patriotism
              > In two weeks the sheeplike masses of any country can be worked up by the newspapers into such a state of excited fury that men are prepared to put on uniforms and kill and be killed, for the sake of the sordid ends of a few interested parties. Compulsory military service seems to me the most disgraceful symptom of that deficiency in personal dignity from which civilized mankind is suffering today. (Albert Einstein, 1934)
              > If unrestricted sacred egoism leads to dire consequences in economic life, it is still worse as a guide in international relations. The development of mechanical methods of warfare is such that human life will become intolerable if people do not discover before long a way of preventing war. The importance of this object is only equalled by the inadequacy of the attempts hitherto made to attain it. (Albert Einstein, 1930, Address To The Students' Disarmament Meeting)
              >
              > May I begin with an article of political faith? It runs as follows: the state is made for man, not man for the state. The same may be said of science. These are old sayings, coined by men for whom human personality has the highest human value. I should shrink from repeating them, were it not that they are forever threatening to fall into oblivion, particularly in these days of organisation and stereotypes. I regard it as the chief duty of the state to protect the individual and give him the opportunity to develop into a creative personality. (Albert Einstein, 1931, The Disarmament Conference of 1932)
              >
              > ..the greatest obstacle to international order is that monstrously exaggerated spirit of nationalism which also goes by the fair-sounding but misused name of patriotism. During the last century and a half this idol has acquired an uncanny and exceedingly pernicious power everywhere. (Albert Einstein, 1931)
              >
              > The introduction of compulsory military service is therefore, to my mind, the prime cause of the moral decay of the white race, which seriously threatens not merely the survival of our civilization but our very existence. (Albert Einstein, 1931)
              >
              > ... unfortunate national traditions which are handed on like a hereditary disease from generation to generation through the workings of the educational system. (Albert Einstein, 1931)
              >
              > Anybody who really wants to abolish war must resolutely declare himself in favour of his own country's resigning a portion of its sovereignty in favour of international institutions: he must be ready to make his own country amenable, in case of a dispute, to the award of an international court. He must, in the most uncompromising fashion, support disarmament all round, as is actually envisaged in the unfortunate Treaty of Versailles; unless military and aggressively patriotic education is abolished, we can hope for no progress. (Albert Einstein, published 1934)
              >
              > Letters To Friends Of Peace
              > It has come to my knowledge that out of the greatness of your soul you are quietly accomplishing a splendid work, impelled by solicitude for humanity and its fate. Small is the number of them that see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts. But it is their strength that will decide whether the human race must relapse into that state of stupor which a deluded multitude appears today to regard as the ideal. (Albert Einstein, 1934)
              >
              > The armament industry is indeed one of the greatest dangers that beset mankind. It is the hidden evil power behind the nationalism which is rampant everywhere ... (Albert Einstein, 1934)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > UNIVERSAL SOLDIER
              > Buffy Sainte-Marie
              > © Caleb Music-ASCAP
              >
              > I wrote "Universal Soldier" in the basement of The Purple Onion coffee house in Toronto in the early sixties. It's about individual responsibility for war and how the old feudal thinking kills us all. Donovan had a hit with it in 1965.
              >
              > He's five feet two and he's six feet four
              > He fights with missiles and with spears
              > He's all of 31 and he's only 17
              > He's been a soldier for a thousand years
              >
              > He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
              > a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
              > and he knows he shouldn't kill
              > and he knows he always will
              > kill you for me my friend and me for you
              >
              > And he's fighting for Canada,
              > he's fighting for France,
              > he's fighting for the USA,
              > and he's fighting for the Russians
              > and he's fighting for Japan,
              > and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way
              >
              > And he's fighting for Democracy
              > and fighting for the Reds
              > He says it's for the peace of all
              > He's the one who must decide
              > who's to live and who's to die
              > and he never sees the writing on the walls
              >
              > But without him how would Hitler have
              > condemned him at Dachau
              > Without him Caesar would have stood alone
              > He's the one who gives his body
              > as a weapon to a war
              > and without him all this killing can't go on
              >
              > He's the universal soldier and he
              > really is to blame
              > His orders come from far away no more
              > They come from him, and you, and me
              > and brothers can't you see
              > this is not the way we put an end to war.
              >
              >
              > "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."
              >
              > --Goering at the Nuremberg Trials
              >
              > Peace,
              > Tom
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: mary.josie59
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:09 PM
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Some death to celebrate
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Tom,
              >
              > When you go to war, if you don't convince your enemy you'll do everything possible to defeat him, why bother?
              >
              > Mary
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
              >
              > I bet for every terrorist the US has killed, weve killed 10 or 20 people who
              > have nothing more to do with it than u or I. I think Soros said in his book on
              > war on terror that we call them terrorists for killing civilians, but weve
              > killed lot more than 3000 civilians in our war on terror.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • tom
              Mary, You say Are we saying an existentialist CAN T be a soldier or cop? Are we saying ALL existentialists will find themselves marginalized into counter
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 26, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Mary,

                You say

                Are we saying an existentialist CAN'T be a soldier or cop? Are we saying ALL existentialists will find themselves marginalized into counter cultures MUST foment counter revolutions.

                Certainly not. I certainly wouldn't set myself up as any judge of existensialism.To do so would in effect to become some sort of Pope. I was pointing out what to me seems like the historical antagonism between national unity conductive to patterns of ongoing warfare, and the urges toward creative self expression and introspection by the individual. I was quoting George Soros on the differences between organic society and its accompanying traditional thought, and open society and it's accompanying critical thought. Obviously, a nation which places military values as number one priority will be characterized by organic society, where everyone is defined by their role in the war machine, and traditional thinking where things are as they are, and other views than those advocated by the military industrial complex are "wrong think". Of course in practice, it's impossible to always be able to seperate war propaganda from legitimate threats to our collective survical and freedom. But certainly in regard to the US conflicts with Islamic people, it seems to me that the US has been getting in their face for many years. During the cold war, many evils by the US were justified as necesary to avoid the greater evils of totalatarian Communism. But since the falling of the iron curtain, it has gradually become more apparent to me that the forces of the military industrial establisment and police state and the forces of neocolonialism are as active as ever. I liked Ron Paul's statement that if he were president, he'd not only withdraw military from Iraq and Afghanistan, but also Japan, Korea, and Germany. Of course, such ideas do not lend themselves to people becoming president. At least, I'm glad to see the Neocons gone, and Obama is admitting the US has been in the wrong on many foreign issues.

                As for organic society, I'd guess one of the main reasons for the Nazi hatred of Jews was that because of being as a group brighter and better educated, as well as often having families scattered throughout the world, and being products of a different tradition and culture, Jewish people could not be readily assimilated into a German organic society.

                Peace,
                Tom

                ps
                Jefferson said that regardless if your neigbor believes in 1 God or 12 Gods, as long as he is a good neighbor what concern is it to u?


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: mary.josie59
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 9:24 AM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: Some death to celebrate





                Tom,

                I don't philosophically support militarism anymore than I do racism, but I'm aware that as a citizen of a nation, my government, as well as other individuals, will often take actions which I oppose, actions which inevitably crush and/or kill others pursuit of happiness. Actions with which my taxes have forced me to participate.

                I often speak on behalf of individuals who reinforce my radical interpretation of existentialism, namely those who, for whatever explanation or rationale, realize their conditioning and choices isolate them from family, friends, and neighbors. These might include those in occupations or vocations I wouldn't choose for myself. These might include those whose opinions differ greatly from mine. Are we saying an existentialist CAN'T be a soldier or cop? Are we saying ALL existentialists will find themselves marginalized into counter cultures MUST foment counter revolutions.

                Defending the right of minority opinion and dissent through demonstration and freedom of speech is a cornerstone of our republic and a tenet of existentialism. It is recognition and respect for alterity. Perhaps that isn't authentic, to defend positions I can't/don't/won't hold? If in the course of dialectic and discourse we "terminate" the voice of our philosophical opponent, they will find alternate means of expression, sometimes even less desirable than their opinion. Now, if you're actually very warlike about your opinion, termination is preferable. I think I like Derrida's Politics of Friendship.

                Maybe I'm too tolerant, too libera. I often find myself in a strangely tolerant mode of listening which isn't really that unusual for a mother of several. My experience with people is they expect and appreciate my ears but then in turn don't offer theirs to others. But that too is life, I suppose. Many things in life suck, but you can't control everything. I'm only sayin'.

                Mary

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Mary,
                >
                > I understand where u r coming from, BUT Nazism could be rated high on the scale in terms of military efficiency. For the amounts of men and resourses they had available, the Nazi model kicked ass. If u look at any WW2 statistics, u find that the Germans killed many allies for every German killed. If Hitler hadn't gotten his brain totally fried on meth by the early 40s they might have won. We often hear the term "military dictatorship", and from purely militaristic objectives such an organization is quite efficient. The fact that totalatarian methods of organization have military advantages is in my opinion the main reason they have existed. Any philosophies that value freedom for the individual, whither secular like existensialism, or mystical like Gnosticism or the Quakers will tend to be seen as the devil by militaristic powers. The inherent conflict between a nation being free and being continually involved in military conflcts was quite apparent to guys like Jefferson and Washington. Both warned against entangling alliances. There is a Jefferson quote in which he is criticizing the idea of a national bank, saying it is as detrimental to the liberty of the citizens as a standing army. The continual connecting of US military forces around the world with freedom is in my opinion a great example of Orwellian Newspeak. Ron Paul said in 1 of the Repuiblican debates that 911 was blowback for 50 years of US policy in the mideast, and he asked how we'd like it if China was building numerlous military bases in Panama. Harry Browne in 2003 said in an article that if Bush tricked us into the Iraq War it wouldnt be any thing new. He then went on to mention the Tankin Incident in escalating the Vietnames War, the fact that the FDR administration provoked the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, Woodrow Wilson's failure to warn passengers on the Lucitana of Germany'swarning to him, and how Hearst and Pulitzer newspapers used "Remember the Maine" to start the Spanish American War, though very few historians believe Spain had anything to do with the Maine blowing up.
                >
                >
                >
                > Albert Einstein: War, Peace, Disarmament and Patriotism
                > In two weeks the sheeplike masses of any country can be worked up by the newspapers into such a state of excited fury that men are prepared to put on uniforms and kill and be killed, for the sake of the sordid ends of a few interested parties. Compulsory military service seems to me the most disgraceful symptom of that deficiency in personal dignity from which civilized mankind is suffering today. (Albert Einstein, 1934)
                > If unrestricted sacred egoism leads to dire consequences in economic life, it is still worse as a guide in international relations. The development of mechanical methods of warfare is such that human life will become intolerable if people do not discover before long a way of preventing war. The importance of this object is only equalled by the inadequacy of the attempts hitherto made to attain it. (Albert Einstein, 1930, Address To The Students' Disarmament Meeting)
                >
                > May I begin with an article of political faith? It runs as follows: the state is made for man, not man for the state. The same may be said of science. These are old sayings, coined by men for whom human personality has the highest human value. I should shrink from repeating them, were it not that they are forever threatening to fall into oblivion, particularly in these days of organisation and stereotypes. I regard it as the chief duty of the state to protect the individual and give him the opportunity to develop into a creative personality. (Albert Einstein, 1931, The Disarmament Conference of 1932)
                >
                > ..the greatest obstacle to international order is that monstrously exaggerated spirit of nationalism which also goes by the fair-sounding but misused name of patriotism. During the last century and a half this idol has acquired an uncanny and exceedingly pernicious power everywhere. (Albert Einstein, 1931)
                >
                > The introduction of compulsory military service is therefore, to my mind, the prime cause of the moral decay of the white race, which seriously threatens not merely the survival of our civilization but our very existence. (Albert Einstein, 1931)
                >
                > ... unfortunate national traditions which are handed on like a hereditary disease from generation to generation through the workings of the educational system. (Albert Einstein, 1931)
                >
                > Anybody who really wants to abolish war must resolutely declare himself in favour of his own country's resigning a portion of its sovereignty in favour of international institutions: he must be ready to make his own country amenable, in case of a dispute, to the award of an international court. He must, in the most uncompromising fashion, support disarmament all round, as is actually envisaged in the unfortunate Treaty of Versailles; unless military and aggressively patriotic education is abolished, we can hope for no progress. (Albert Einstein, published 1934)
                >
                > Letters To Friends Of Peace
                > It has come to my knowledge that out of the greatness of your soul you are quietly accomplishing a splendid work, impelled by solicitude for humanity and its fate. Small is the number of them that see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts. But it is their strength that will decide whether the human race must relapse into that state of stupor which a deluded multitude appears today to regard as the ideal. (Albert Einstein, 1934)
                >
                > The armament industry is indeed one of the greatest dangers that beset mankind. It is the hidden evil power behind the nationalism which is rampant everywhere ... (Albert Einstein, 1934)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > UNIVERSAL SOLDIER
                > Buffy Sainte-Marie
                > © Caleb Music-ASCAP
                >
                > I wrote "Universal Soldier" in the basement of The Purple Onion coffee house in Toronto in the early sixties. It's about individual responsibility for war and how the old feudal thinking kills us all. Donovan had a hit with it in 1965.
                >
                > He's five feet two and he's six feet four
                > He fights with missiles and with spears
                > He's all of 31 and he's only 17
                > He's been a soldier for a thousand years
                >
                > He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
                > a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
                > and he knows he shouldn't kill
                > and he knows he always will
                > kill you for me my friend and me for you
                >
                > And he's fighting for Canada,
                > he's fighting for France,
                > he's fighting for the USA,
                > and he's fighting for the Russians
                > and he's fighting for Japan,
                > and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way
                >
                > And he's fighting for Democracy
                > and fighting for the Reds
                > He says it's for the peace of all
                > He's the one who must decide
                > who's to live and who's to die
                > and he never sees the writing on the walls
                >
                > But without him how would Hitler have
                > condemned him at Dachau
                > Without him Caesar would have stood alone
                > He's the one who gives his body
                > as a weapon to a war
                > and without him all this killing can't go on
                >
                > He's the universal soldier and he
                > really is to blame
                > His orders come from far away no more
                > They come from him, and you, and me
                > and brothers can't you see
                > this is not the way we put an end to war.
                >
                >
                > "Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."
                >
                > --Goering at the Nuremberg Trials
                >
                > Peace,
                > Tom
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: mary.josie59
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:09 PM
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: Some death to celebrate
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Tom,
                >
                > When you go to war, if you don't convince your enemy you'll do everything possible to defeat him, why bother?
                >
                > Mary
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@> wrote:
                >
                > I bet for every terrorist the US has killed, weve killed 10 or 20 people who
                > have nothing more to do with it than u or I. I think Soros said in his book on
                > war on terror that we call them terrorists for killing civilians, but weve
                > killed lot more than 3000 civilians in our war on terror.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • mary.josie59
                Tom, Don t know that I strictly agree with the organic-traditional society dichotomy, since most modern societies are in some degree more diverse; but I
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 26, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tom,

                  Don't know that I strictly agree with the organic-traditional society dichotomy, since most modern societies are in some degree more diverse; but I certainly sympathize with your characterization of existentialism. In fact, the more diverse nations are, the more tension between at least those two types of "society." Hopefully that tension produces creative solutions or direction. Moorish Spain is one such example, where Arab, Jewish, and Spanish culture merged and blossomed.

                  Some ethnic minorities nearly become extinct because they are incapable of adaptation. The minorities that thrive, like the Jews, are often targeted because of their "prosperity " The Cherokee nation was once envied for their prosperous farms and great adaptation to white culture. They were rewarded with forced emigration from their ancestral homes. President Jefferson opened the American west for enterprise and planned to "give" Native Americans their own new territory, but President Jackson forced the exodus. Governments have lousy track records concerning peace and prosperity for all their citizens/subjects.

                  But individuals are not actually the government, and President Lincoln's vision for a people's government and unity are not yet realized. I suspect there are few members of the Government who take the welfare of individual constituents to heart. I think the fact that so many traditional institutions are failing their members will encourage the the very creative self expression and introspection you've wisely mentioned.

                  Mary

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:

                  I was pointing out what to me seems like the historical antagonism between national unity conductive to patterns of ongoing warfare, and the urges toward creative self expression and introspection by the individual.
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