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Re: consciousness is all about time and temporality

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  • louise
    Well, I just re-read it all, and stand by my remarks. If you want to discuss it further, I suggest we do so off-list. Not that I can particularly see the
    Message 1 of 34 , Mar 4, 2009
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      Well, I just re-read it all, and stand by my remarks. If you want to discuss it further, I suggest we do so off-list. Not that I can particularly see the point. L.


      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
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      > Louise,
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      > I cannot see how you can have read both posts (Tom's and mine) and say what you have just said.
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      > Wil
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 3:04 pm
      > Subject: [existlist] Re: consciousness is all about time and temporality
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      > Wil,
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      > I was quite hopeful when reading your opening line, thanking Tom for his "wonderful post". Then you spoil it all, by not really listening to what he is telling you. Of course your responses are sometimes bullying and condescending. You don't have to try to be invincible, after all. I know my own weaknesses and faults, and some of them are quite similar to yours, insofar as you expose them at an internet venue. This is not a competition, but a bid for the fresh air of difficult truths. My regard for your considerable learning has only increased with time, but I am weary of these ego contests. What counts is not whether any of us succeed in achieving a leadership, toward keeping the list serious, or whatever, but any actual results achieved, such as the happiness of achieving a true philosophical discussion, a modern equivalent to Socratic dialogue or the vital debates of a Medieval university. My beliefs are certainly not infallible, but they are grounded in thought and experience. I give them neither as mere opinions, nor as anything aspiring to popularity.
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      > 0A
      > Louise
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      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
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      > > Tom,
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      > > Thank you for the wonderful post. I will respond.
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      > > ---
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      > > â€Å"Will, you narrow minded idiot. I quote Einstein, and you tell me to stick to NASCAR. I dont know a lot about NASCAR, but I bet I could find many people with a much more open mind among the NASDCAR crowd or any other crowd than you have. "What Life Means to Einstein: An Interview by George Sylvester Viereck," for the October 26, 1929 issue of The Saturday Evening Post.”
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      > > Response: Are you kidding me? You quote everyone and everything, as if wanton cutting and pasting were of any interest to me. As far as Einstein’s alleged religiosity goes, I refer you to Hitchens’ The Portable Atheist which includes a nice selection of Einstein’s statements on religion and God. Sorry, Tom, but Einstein was an atheist, pure and simple and without any ambiguity. But my comment was not about Einstein; it was a response to your bone headed screed against science and evolution.
      >
      > > ---
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      > > â€Å"You r the kind of teacher that led students at Berkley in the mid 60s to carry signs saying "Don't fold, bend, or mutilate".”
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      > > Response: I don’t know what you mean by this. Never heard the story.
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      > > ---
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      > > â€Å"Your statements that this is an existentialist group and specifically excludes any=2
      > 0pondering of the possibility of as yet unproved dimensions might be reasonable, but your consistent condescending attitude makes me see you as the left wing counterpart to a Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity.. These guys like you, don't only=2
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      > > 0respond with an intellectual rebuttal to statements they disagree with, but respond in a bullying, condescending manner way.”
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      > >
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      > > Response: Hardly. You just do not want to be criticized. But let’s get real here, Tom. This outburst was about God originally. If you are going to call me a dogmatist, and the rest of it, because I do not allow for fantasies and bugbears, cosmic big daddies and evolutionary designers, it is abundantly clear that you have no idea what Existentialism, a la Sartre, Nietzsche, Heidegger, and such, is about. The first reaction from most educated people in this field should be condescension and dismissiveness. That is not to say that one cannot discuss the issue, but you were not ‘discussing’ anything; you were giving up your own insipid credo.
      >
      > > ---
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      > > â€Å"People like you get on a discussion group on the web and say smartass remarks that would get you bitch slaped if you were in bitch slapping distance.”
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      > > Reponses: Please!
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      > > ---
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      > > â€Å"Twilight Zone
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      > > I live in the Twilight Zone, where souls are locked in stone.
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      > > Where everything you got is just a temporary loan.
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      > > Where I hear every cat groan.
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      > > Where I suspect there is one hell of a lot more going on behind the scenes, than to common sense and orthodox science is generally known.”
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      > >
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      > > Response: Don’t quit your day job.
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      > > ---
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      > > Finally: Look, the matter is simple. If anyone comes here to proselytize in behalf of God, mystical realms, anti-intellectualism, moral absolutism, or anything else that is fundame
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      > > ntally anathema to the subject and spirit of the topic, he or she should expect someone here to object.
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      > > Look where the discussions here have gone. There hasn’t been any serious discussion of existentialism at all really. And the various contributions by a few newcomers on the subject of consciousness utterly reject what existential phenomenology has to say about the subject, and rather appeal to ancient semi-religious conceptions with a zealot’s smugness: â€Å"who are you to question thousands of years of thinking on the matter, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah?”
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      > > So, yes, I refuse to allow the list to drift into the shallows, Cool Dude.
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      > > Wil
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      > > -----Original Message-----
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      > > From: devogney <tsmith17_midsouth1@>
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      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
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      > > Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 11:48 pm
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      > > Subject: [existlist] Re: consciousness is all about time and temporality
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      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
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      > > > Tom,
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      > > > I might have known. Stick to NASCAR.
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      > > > Wil
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      > > Will, you narrow minded idiot. I quote Einstein, and you tell me to stick to NASCAR. I dont know a lot about NASCAR, but I bet I could find many people with a much more open mind among the NASDCAR crowd or any other crowd than you have.
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      > > "What Life Means to Einstein: An Interview by George Sylvester Viereck," for the October 26, 1929 issue of The Saturday Evening Post.
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      > > "The
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      > > most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."
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      > > =2E.. =D2To me the worst thing seems to be for a school principally t=
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      > > with methods of fear, force, and artificial authority. Such treatment=
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      > > destroys the sound sentiments, the sincerity, and the self-confidence=
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      > > the pupil. It produces the submissive subject. It is no wander that s=
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      > > schools are the rule in Germany and Russia.
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      > > Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand."
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      > > --Albert Einstein
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      > > You r the kind of teacher that led students at Berkley in the mid 60s to carry signs saying"Don't fold, bend, or mutilate".
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      > > I have heard your smartass remarks to various people for as long as I've been on this list. Whither its Chris,Louise, Dick,vjsimms73, or now me, you consistently make your smartass remarks. As vjsimms so aptly put it
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      > > "If you wish to call that mysteries then fine, it is; is that not
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      > > why we study it in a rational manner without keep yelling at people like
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      > > Your statements that this is an existentialist group and specifically excludes any pondering of the possibility of as
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      > > yet unproved dimensions might be reasonable, but your consistent condescending attitude makes me see you as the left wing counterpart to a Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity.These guys like you,don't only respond with an intellectual rebuttal to statements they disagree with, but respond in a bullying,condescending manner way.
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      > > People like you get on a discussion group on the web and say smartass remarks that would=2
      > 0get you bitch slaped if you were in bitch slapping distance.
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      > > Twilight Zone
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      > > I live in the Twilight Zone, where souls are locked in stone.
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      > > Where everything you got is just a temporary loan.
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      > > Where I hear every cat groan.
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      > > Where I suspect there is one hell of a lot more going on behind the scenes, than to common sense and orthodox science is generally known.
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      > > Groovy man
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      > > Tom
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      > > > -----Original Message-----
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      > > > From: devogney <tsmith17_midsouth1@>
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      > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
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      > > > Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 4:59 pm
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      > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: consciousness is all about time and temporality
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      > > > I agree with you. I certainly see dogmatic, reductionist, materialistic aetheists as dogmatic as the most extreme fundamentalist. And when you realize as Nietzche once said in affect that dogma is used by the submissive as an excuse to submit, and by the dominant a
      > s a
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      > > tool of domination;the reductionist; materialist crowd is as locked into as tight a world view as the true beievers of these fundamentalistic religions, and not the Popes or Pat Robertsons, who use dogma to manipulate submissive masses.Of all the creation myths, the most improbable to me is the creation myth embraced by materialistic aetheism, that the cosmos the ecosphere, and our own conciousness and intelligance are all the result of some sort of random chance.
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      > > > I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)
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      > > > It is very difficult to elucidate this [cosmic religious] feeling to anyone who is entirely without it. . . The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man's image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it ... In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 207)
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      > > > I see a pattern, but my imagination cannot picture the maker of that pattern. I see a clock, but I cannot envision the clockmaker.20The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God, before whom a thousand years and a thousand dimensions are as one? (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 208)
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      > > > We know nothing about [God, the world] at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. Possibly we shall know a little more than we do now. but the real nature of things, that we shall never know, never. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, Page 208)
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      > > > Geoff - I think Einstein is referring to the limitations of mathematical physics and his failed attempt of a continuous field theory of matter (i.e. mathematics does not describe reality, only its quantities). However, with a wave structure of matter in space we have further knowledge that Space is a substance with properties of a wave medium. But we are still imagining space based upon our own limited minds and imagination, so in a sense the solution is always incomplete.
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      > > > Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs fr
      > om the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 214)
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      > > > Geoff - It is interesting that Einstein refers to the 'music of the spheres', a perfect description of the the spherical standing
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      > > > In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p.. 214)
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      > > > What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos. (Albert Einstein to Joseph Lewis, Apr. 18, 1953)
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    • chris lofting
      ... The neuron goes back 600 million years to sponge life and so well before us . The dynamics of the neuron reflect a form of spectrum acquisition where all
      Message 34 of 34 , Mar 4, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman B. Triplegood
        > Sent: Thursday, 5 March 2009 11:46 AM
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [existlist] Re: In real time
        >
        >Why does this "part" depend upon that "whole" in order
        > to functionally be just what it is?
        >
        > Why do we have concepts of "part" and "whole" anyway?
        >

        The neuron goes back 600 million years to sponge life and so well before
        'us'. The dynamics of the neuron reflect a form of spectrum acquisition
        where all sensory data 'feeds' into one area (through what is call Amplitude
        Modulation, AM radio, WAVE focused) and that data gets discretised into a
        pulse train (Frequency Modulation, FM, PULSE focus) representing the
        spectrum of that whole and so a PARTS LIST of that whole. That data is
        distributed to other neurons or directly onto muscle through release of
        hormones etc to get the muscle to contract.

        A feature of the neurology is where a feedback system developed across
        collectives of neurons where the output of one fed back into one input and
        this creates an Exclusive OR loop and so development of a form of memory.
        Formations that develop in the input areas of neurons serve to represent
        memories as instincts/habits and so filters of data that can contribute to
        neural responses to data - as can issues of neuron synchronisation with
        other neurons etc (this also gets into division of labour etc).

        The formation of collectives of neurons reflect an interesting property of
        self-referencing, the collective will behave 'AS IF' a single neuron (but
        with increase in bandwidth and so able to process a lot more data). Here we
        get into 'fractal' dynamics and complexity/chaos behaviours.

        We can trace this property of the neurology all the way up into the
        hemispheres of our neocortex and from there to the abstraction notions of
        anti-symmmetry(XOR, partials focus, aspectual, local context) / symmetry
        (wholes process, EQV, non-local context).

        Sensory input covers aggregation of various inputs into a complex 'whole'
        that is then open to analysis through spectral breakdown into 'aspects' -
        sensory paradox demonstrates this feature where a complex line drawing is
        'broken down' into objects but not fully discretisable from that drawing -
        see examples in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html

        These dynamics cover soma processing of data as they do psyche processing of
        data.

        Of interest is that the parts realm comes with properties that allow for
        emergences and so 'new' wholes are possible. This realm is dominated by
        positive feedback (discretisation and amplification) whereas the more whole
        realm is biased to negative feedback (integrating, error correcting,
        'getting closer to' etc)

        The label of 'parts' is object focused and one can focus more on 'aspects'
        where such includes static and dynamic relationships.

        It is the use of LABELS that can transcend the single context focus of the
        basic neurology and so move us into language usage etc. and the development
        of consciousness and the instinctive notions of 'partness' and 'wholeness'
        etc.

        Chris
        http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html
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