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Re: Freedom WITHIN that which is Determined.

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  • jimstuart51
    Dear VJ Simms, You write: Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do whilst also there are things that we cannot choose to do? I
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 1, 2009
      Dear VJ Simms,

      You write:

      "Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do
      whilst also there are things that we cannot choose to do? I cannot
      choose to be a house brick, a planet, or a dragon fly; I am what I
      am. But within those parameters I can make many choices of what to
      do; actions, who to talk to, where to sit, where to live, what to eat
      and drink, etc. If some feel that they are remotely controlled robots
      then let them get on with it."

      I do not deny that it feels to us, from the first person point of
      view, that we are able to make choices, and, within the sorts of
      constraints you mention, determine the course of our own lives.

      But just because it feels like this, does not make it true. It felt
      to the ancients that the earth was stationary and flat, but their
      intuitive feelings were mistaken.

      Yes, it feels to us that we are free but this intuitive feeling may
      be mistaken.

      Jim
    • vjsimms73
      Given that we experience it to be true that we have some degree of freedom of choice and given that we also feel it to be so, and given that it seems to work,
      Message 2 of 4 , Mar 1, 2009
        Given that we experience it to be true that we have some degree of
        freedom of choice and given that we also feel it to be so, and given
        that it seems to work, then any IF that it may not be so has to be
        proved not just assumed that it is not so. So, go ahead and prove it. If
        in ultimate terms I am a mechanised robot with no choice in anything
        then so be it, for it still seems to be what it seems to be by the
        living experience of it. And that is how it is lived here. So if I am a
        machine then it makes no difference anyway, for then I am programmed
        that way.



        But if you say that I have no freedom of choice (you may not have any)
        then prove it, for it defies all experiential data. But just to assert
        that it may be that it is not, is not actually saying anything is it.
        Maybe you are really your wife's hat in the hall. Prove that you are
        not your wife's hat. If you say that you have no wife then that
        might be an illusion too :- ) But maybe YOU are not free to think and
        ask qustions and make decissions. I dont care, for I do not have to live
        your life for you, I have to live mine. That is not a choice is it.



        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "jimstuart51" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear VJ Simms,
        >
        > You write:
        >
        > "Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do
        > whilst also there are things that we cannot choose to do? I cannot
        > choose to be a house brick, a planet, or a dragon fly; I am what I
        > am. But within those parameters I can make many choices of what to
        > do; actions, who to talk to, where to sit, where to live, what to eat
        > and drink, etc. If some feel that they are remotely controlled robots
        > then let them get on with it."
        >
        > I do not deny that it feels to us, from the first person point of
        > view, that we are able to make choices, and, within the sorts of
        > constraints you mention, determine the course of our own lives.
        >
        > But just because it feels like this, does not make it true. It felt
        > to the ancients that the earth was stationary and flat, but their
        > intuitive feelings were mistaken.
        >
        > Yes, it feels to us that we are free but this intuitive feeling may
        > be mistaken.
        >
        > Jim
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jimstuart51
        VJ Simms, I am not claiming that determinism is true. Much less am I claiming to have any proof of its truth. My position is sceptical. I do not know if
        Message 3 of 4 , Mar 1, 2009
          VJ Simms,

          I am not claiming that determinism is true. Much less am I claiming
          to have any proof of its truth.

          My position is sceptical. I do not know if determinism is true, and I
          do not know if human freedom of choice is true.

          Like you, I live as if I do have freedom of choice. However, I do not
          claim that my experience `proves' that I am free, which is what you
          seemed to be claiming in this sentence from your post 47240:

          "Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do
          whilst also there are things that we cannot choose to do?"

          You write more circumspectly in your latest post 47242, so I can
          agree with your more carefully word formulation of your position.

          Jim
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