Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Freedom WITHIN that which is Determined.

Expand Messages
  • vjsimms73
    Freedom WITHIN that which is Determined. Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do whilst also there are things that we cannot
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 1 3:41 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Freedom WITHIN that which is Determined.



      Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do
      whilst also there are things that we cannot choose to do? I cannot
      choose to be a house brick, a planet, or a dragon fly; I am what I am.
      But within those parameters I can make many choices of what to do;
      actions, who to talk to, where to sit, where to live, what to eat and
      drink, etc.



      If some feel that they are remotely controlled robots then let them get
      on with it. If they want to think that they are saints or sinners then
      let them get on with it. This life is yours, do with what you will
      within the parameters that you have any choice in it. What the hell do
      you want to be? Somebody else by the sound of it. Are you not enjoying
      life? If not then that is sad. But never mind for it does not last for
      ever. Best not to miss it whilst it is here.







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jimstuart51
      Dear VJ Simms, You write: Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do whilst also there are things that we cannot choose to do? I
      Message 2 of 4 , Mar 1 3:50 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear VJ Simms,

        You write:

        "Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do
        whilst also there are things that we cannot choose to do? I cannot
        choose to be a house brick, a planet, or a dragon fly; I am what I
        am. But within those parameters I can make many choices of what to
        do; actions, who to talk to, where to sit, where to live, what to eat
        and drink, etc. If some feel that they are remotely controlled robots
        then let them get on with it."

        I do not deny that it feels to us, from the first person point of
        view, that we are able to make choices, and, within the sorts of
        constraints you mention, determine the course of our own lives.

        But just because it feels like this, does not make it true. It felt
        to the ancients that the earth was stationary and flat, but their
        intuitive feelings were mistaken.

        Yes, it feels to us that we are free but this intuitive feeling may
        be mistaken.

        Jim
      • vjsimms73
        Given that we experience it to be true that we have some degree of freedom of choice and given that we also feel it to be so, and given that it seems to work,
        Message 3 of 4 , Mar 1 4:05 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Given that we experience it to be true that we have some degree of
          freedom of choice and given that we also feel it to be so, and given
          that it seems to work, then any IF that it may not be so has to be
          proved not just assumed that it is not so. So, go ahead and prove it. If
          in ultimate terms I am a mechanised robot with no choice in anything
          then so be it, for it still seems to be what it seems to be by the
          living experience of it. And that is how it is lived here. So if I am a
          machine then it makes no difference anyway, for then I am programmed
          that way.



          But if you say that I have no freedom of choice (you may not have any)
          then prove it, for it defies all experiential data. But just to assert
          that it may be that it is not, is not actually saying anything is it.
          Maybe you are really your wife's hat in the hall. Prove that you are
          not your wife's hat. If you say that you have no wife then that
          might be an illusion too :- ) But maybe YOU are not free to think and
          ask qustions and make decissions. I dont care, for I do not have to live
          your life for you, I have to live mine. That is not a choice is it.



          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "jimstuart51" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear VJ Simms,
          >
          > You write:
          >
          > "Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do
          > whilst also there are things that we cannot choose to do? I cannot
          > choose to be a house brick, a planet, or a dragon fly; I am what I
          > am. But within those parameters I can make many choices of what to
          > do; actions, who to talk to, where to sit, where to live, what to eat
          > and drink, etc. If some feel that they are remotely controlled robots
          > then let them get on with it."
          >
          > I do not deny that it feels to us, from the first person point of
          > view, that we are able to make choices, and, within the sorts of
          > constraints you mention, determine the course of our own lives.
          >
          > But just because it feels like this, does not make it true. It felt
          > to the ancients that the earth was stationary and flat, but their
          > intuitive feelings were mistaken.
          >
          > Yes, it feels to us that we are free but this intuitive feeling may
          > be mistaken.
          >
          > Jim
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jimstuart51
          VJ Simms, I am not claiming that determinism is true. Much less am I claiming to have any proof of its truth. My position is sceptical. I do not know if
          Message 4 of 4 , Mar 1 5:57 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            VJ Simms,

            I am not claiming that determinism is true. Much less am I claiming
            to have any proof of its truth.

            My position is sceptical. I do not know if determinism is true, and I
            do not know if human freedom of choice is true.

            Like you, I live as if I do have freedom of choice. However, I do not
            claim that my experience `proves' that I am free, which is what you
            seemed to be claiming in this sentence from your post 47240:

            "Can you not see that there are things which we can each choose to do
            whilst also there are things that we cannot choose to do?"

            You write more circumspectly in your latest post 47242, so I can
            agree with your more carefully word formulation of your position.

            Jim
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.