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Hermann and Sartre

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  • bhvwd
    I agree that Sartre is much better than Heidegger , he is actually fun to read. Also he does not give me a headache and occasionally makes me smile. Then
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 7, 2009
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      I agree that Sartre is much better than Heidegger , he is actually
      fun to read. Also he does not give me a headache and occasionally
      makes me smile. Then again Camus is a great storyteller and his prose
      flows . I will continue to follow your perusal of JPS . Thanks,Bill
    • Herman B. Triplegood
      Great! Let s make this the thread and see where it goes. I am open to suggestions. Tell me. What did you think about the whole bit about the look? You
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 7, 2009
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        Great! Let's make this the thread and see where it goes. I am open to
        suggestions. Tell me. What did you think about the whole bit about the
        look? You remember? Being caught peeking through a keyhole by the
        other?

        Does this experience of "being shamed" really contain all of the
        dynamics that Sartre claims it contains? The alienation of my
        possibilities? The upsurgence of the freeom of the other over me? And
        the recognition of the reciprocity of that alienation/upsurgence and
        the freedom/non-freedom that it brings to light?

        When you get "caught in the act" does it or does it not "bring up" your
        freedom in this peculiar negative way? Or, is Sartre simply inflating a
        common psychological event into something ontological or existential?
        Why does Sartre, and, for that matter, Heidegger, and Kierkegaard, and
        even Hegel, latch onto the negative mood to reveal these
        ontological/existential insights? What about positive moods? Can't
        those be just as revealing? If so, which ones? How? And how do we show
        this is all truly ontological/exixtential and not just "hopped up"
        psychology? Why moods? What is so special about them? What does the
        mood reveal that simple thinking or reasoning does not reveal? Is it
        the immediacy? The fact that it is in a sense pre-reflective?

        Hb3g

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I agree that Sartre is much better than Heidegger , he is
        actually
        > fun to read. Also he does not give me a headache and occasionally
        > makes me smile. Then again Camus is a great storyteller and his prose
        > flows . I will continue to follow your perusal of JPS . Thanks,Bill
        >
      • chris lofting
        ... Top-down perspectives reduce the degrees of freedom available and so cut down possibilities that an individual has. Social forms are symmetric forms and
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 7, 2009
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman B. Triplegood
          > Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 3:46 PM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Hermann and Sartre
          >
          > Great! Let's make this the thread and see where it goes. I am
          > open to suggestions. Tell me. What did you think about the
          > whole bit about the look? You remember? Being caught peeking
          > through a keyhole by the other?
          >
          > Does this experience of "being shamed" really contain all of
          > the dynamics that Sartre claims it contains? The alienation
          > of my possibilities?

          Top-down perspectives reduce the degrees of freedom available and so cut
          down possibilities that an individual has. Social forms are symmetric forms
          and contain a core regulatory element that works top-down through use of
          emotions as the 'universal language' of our primate natures.

          > The upsurgence of the freeom of the
          > other over me? And the recognition of the reciprocity of that
          > alienation/upsurgence and the freedom/non-freedom that it
          > brings to light?
          >
          > When you get "caught in the act" does it or does it not
          > "bring up" your freedom in this peculiar negative way? Or, is
          > Sartre simply inflating a common psychological event into
          > something ontological or existential?
          > Why does Sartre, and, for that matter, Heidegger, and
          > Kierkegaard, and even Hegel, latch onto the negative mood to
          > reveal these ontological/existential insights?


          The dynamics of aspect/whole analysis covers the anti-symmetric/symmetric.
          The logic operators at work are the exclusive OR, XOR, (anti-symmetry) and
          equivalence, EQV, (symmetry). The part/whole emphasis means the
          anti-symmetric covers DIFFERENCES WITHIN SAMENESS; as such you cannot
          'break' the whole, only distort it, rotate it, reflect it, amplify some
          aspect and damp the rest etc etc. this brings out the reciprocal
          relationships at work, the nature of 'whole numbers' vs 'rational numbers'
          (and so the harmonics series)

          Freedom is linked to transcending the anti-symmetric to becoming asymmetric
          and so entering a mediation position - as such there is a tie of
          discretisation to negation, the 'cut' of positive feedback. Here we can
          break symmetry as well as make symmetry.

          The realm of symmetry is a realm of socialisation, of equivalence, of social
          rule/law and so of sameness and the 'other'. Uniqueness of being favours
          YOUR rules, YOUR subjectivity over that of the collective and with that
          comes attempts to discretise self, to be 'free' of all social constraints.
          (the dynamic of general to particular is top-down, regulatory as compared to
          bottom-up that is creative of such systems). Of note here is that the realm
          of local context interactions (open system focus), high differentiating
          (positive feedback), seeds the emergence of self-organising systems such
          that the social species emotion of 'shame' can be suppressed through
          development of consciousness although it can also be turned into feelings of
          guilt.

          Hegel's perspective of A/NOT-A as both mutually exclusive and at the same
          time equivalent brought out his intuitions about the thinking process and so
          brain function in general. This function is manifest in ALL of our maps of
          reality in that each map is a relabelling of our general filtering system -
          thus the dynamics of particle physics and the play of fermions vs bosons
          reflects the play of XOR vs EQV, the rigid opposition of electron/positron
          vs the superposition capabilities of bosons, the opposition, competition, of
          A/NOT-A and the equivalence, cooperation, of A/NOT-A.

          Consciousness is the agent of mediation and so an asymmetric form that
          interprets the dynamics across anti-symmetry/symmetry, across difference
          dynamics and sameness dynamics, across fermions and bosons. etc etc etc

          > What about
          > positive moods? Can't those be just as revealing? If so,
          > which ones? How? And how do we show this is all truly
          > ontological/exixtential and not just "hopped up"
          > psychology? Why moods? What is so special about them?

          They set an emotional context for interpretation of reality. People can be
          born with a general 'mood' as they can a dynamic of 'moodiness'. The CORE of
          emotions is in fight/flight (anger/fear) and covers a more generic focus on
          context issues - to REPLACE the existing context or to COEXIST with the
          existing context. The expression of emotion communicates that intent.

          Thus the development of primary emotions from the recursion of fight/flight
          includes the emergence of the fight-joy relationship where both focus on
          context replacement, either by eradication of other(s) or by replication of
          self. With the development of a sense of self joy transforms into sexual
          love and presents us with the dynamics of the love/hate dichotomy.

          > What
          > does the mood reveal that simple thinking or reasoning does
          > not reveal?

          symmetry bias; emotional dynamics are dominatingly symmetric such that being
          'moody' can elicit 'irrational' behaviours.

          We can in fact identify classes of consciousness tied to emotional
          groundings. Philosophically Nietzsche covers the extremes of anger/power.
          Freud brought out the sexual aspect of such power games (but in doing so
          missed a LOT of the other categories).

          You asked:

          > What about positive moods? Can't those be just as revealing?

          No. anger is more differentiating and so more PRECISE. Anger is better at
          getting a transcendence experience than love/joy. Most true innovations come
          out out of struggle, of conflict with self/demons and so the border of
          sanity/insanity - you can break symmetry/make symmetry through competition.
          Cooperative perspectives work more to distort symmetry, are more adaptive
          than innovative WHEN COMAPARED to what is possible through anger (that gets
          into self-respect, competitiveness, 'hard play' etc). The issues from a
          rational perspective are to USE anger over BEING angry since the latter can
          be too symmetric in extremes; we use consciousness to regulate emotions ;-)
          - the borderline between sanity and insanity can be crossed if we become
          angry rather than use it, push the border, dont cross it. As such we are
          born to argue in that it aids in resolving the seemingly paradoxical (see
          the paradox page http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html )

          If we shift from a focus on 'self' to 'others' then the dominating emotion
          is anticipation of WRONG doing and covers the pair of
          anticipation/rejection. The positive side emerges from the negative in that
          anticipation of wrong doing transforms into anticipation of right doing aka
          cultivation. Issues of rejection transform into being protective and so
          rejecting.

          Chris
          http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html
        • chris lofting
          ... ... Emergence through collective self-organization thus has two aspects. Once is local-to-global determination, as a result of which novel
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 7, 2009
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman B. Triplegood
            > Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 3:46 PM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: Hermann and Sartre
            <snip>
            >
            > Does this experience of "being shamed" really contain all of
            > the dynamics that Sartre claims it contains? The alienation
            > of my possibilities? The upsurgence of the freeom of the
            > other over me? And the recognition of the reciprocity of that
            > alienation/upsurgence and the freedom/non-freedom that it
            > brings to light?

            "Emergence through collective self-organization thus has two aspects. Once
            is local-to-global determination, as a result of which novel macrolevel
            structures and processes emerge. The other is global-to-local determination
            whereby global structures and processes constrain local interactions. These
            global-to-local influences do not take the same form as the local-to-global
            ones: they typically manifest themselves through changes in control
            parameters ... and boundary conditions rather than through changes to the
            individual elements... Coherent and ordered global behaviors, which are
            described by collective variables or order parameters, constrain or govern
            he behavior of the individual components, entraining them so that they no
            longer have the same behavioral alternatives open to them as they would if
            they were not interdependently woven into the coherent and ordered global
            pattern. At the same time, the behavior of the components generates and
            sustains the global order. This two-sided or double determination is known
            as circular causality." pp 61-62

            Thompson, E., (2007)"Mind in Life : Biology, Phenomenology, and the Sciences
            of Mind" Belknap Harvard

            Thompson is a professor of philosophy at uni of Toronto and strongly tied to
            autopoiesis dynamics and so self-organising systems. The PLAY of
            anti-symmetry/symmetry in our brains reflects the above dynamic with
            mediation in the form of consciousness/language development.

            Chris
            http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html
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