Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Against bad manners

Expand Messages
  • Herman B. Triplegood
    I am reading Being and Nothingness right now. I m about halfway through it. And I am impressed. Sartre is more Cartesian than Descartes ever was. And that
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 7 2:42 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      I am reading Being and Nothingness right now. I'm about halfway through
      it. And I am impressed.

      Sartre is more Cartesian than Descartes ever was. And that isn't
      necessarily a "bad thing" either. He is making some very good points
      about the centrality of the cogito. Points that Descartes and the early
      generation of Cartesians, of course, could not have seen. Points that
      Husserl, as Cartesian as Husserl claims to be, apparently totally
      missed. But I am withholding judgment on that, for now. At least, until
      after I get to Husserl's Crisis. Maybe longer. I see some of the major
      gaps in my reading now. I need to go back and pick up Locke, Berkeley,
      Hume. But the Crisis will be my next reading task. It is Husserl's
      ostensive answer to the existentialist movement. I want to see what
      Husserl had to say about it. And...Sartre takes Heidegger to task for
      sidestepping the cogito, the fact of subjectivity, entirely. Now there
      is a point to consider. Obviously, when Heidegger says "Dasein" he
      means human being. But without consciousness taken explicitly into
      account, can that formulation really be to the point? Is that, perhaps,
      what Wil was driving at a while back when he took Heidegger to task for
      losing subjectivity in a negative theology? Anyway, there really is a
      sense in which, when it comes right down to it, we are ALL Cartesians
      in this day and age. Our subjectivity, and what that is all about, has
      become our central philosophical issue. We should not ignore that or
      try to explain it away. It seems to me that a Cartesianism and an
      Existentialism would go hand in hand. What do you all think about that?

      Hb3g

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
      >
      > All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling. Discussions
      > seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just
      a
      > discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to
      get
      > emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
      > unless is directly relates to philosophy.
      >
      >
      > - Susan
      >
    • bhvwd
      ... Discussions ... a ... get ... reductions in the stimulus package. There seems bipartisan rejection of higher spending on education. People do not like the
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 7 2:48 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
        >
        > All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling.
        Discussions
        > seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just
        a
        > discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to
        get
        > emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
        > unless is directly relates to philosophy.
        >
        >
        > - Susan
        >Philosophy of education. It appears education is a prime target for
        reductions in the stimulus package. There seems bipartisan rejection
        of higher spending on education. People do not like the orientation
        of educational philosophy. They come from all over the political
        spectrum and dislike education for multiple reasons.
        This trite phiolophy stuff may not seem important to an educator who
        just follows the lesson plans but some people see the glaring
        philosophical failure in education as part of the WWC. That is why
        you are being cut. Is that important to you? It is to me but
        probably for different reasons. The post modernist hocus pocus with
        correctness and deconstruction is not well accepted by a growing
        majority of tax payers. Any comments? Bill
      • chris lofting
        ... Our subjectivity, and what ... The cogito perspective covers the emergence of proactive mediation dynamics where self-referencing and
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 7 5:05 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman B. Triplegood
          > Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 9:43 AM
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
          >
          <snip> Our subjectivity, and what
          > that is all about, has become our central philosophical
          > issue. We should not ignore that or try to explain it away.
          > It seems to me that a Cartesianism and an Existentialism
          > would go hand in hand. What do you all think about that?
          >

          The cogito perspective covers the emergence of proactive mediation dynamics
          where self-referencing and self-organising systems develop. Physiologically
          a sensory stimulus is met with an inappropriate, immediate, response and
          mediation develops. In lesser life forms the mediation is 'mindless' and
          covers a life form trying out its full repertoire of possible responses and
          so 'out of context' behaviours in attempts to resolve the issue
          (biochemically we get down to enzyme dynamics and the nature of catalysts).
          With neural complexity comes emergence from mechanistic dynamics of a
          teleological element in the form of pattern matching (analogy making) and
          planning and on into language formation. As such the mediation involved in
          resolving some issue is now communicatable to others and so speeds up
          learning in a social context.

          The essential feature of the cogito is DELAY in response and we can see this
          at work in the laboratory where when learning there is a delay of at least
          half a second in responses until the habit has formed at a level where
          awareness is no longer needed and the delay disappears as we fall back on
          stimulus/response. The initial discovery of this delay element in
          experiments raised some issues about consciousness for those not willing to
          accept that a lot of our behaviour is unconscious. See such as:

          Pockett, S., Banks, W., & Gallagher, S., (eds)(2006)"Does Consciousness
          Cause Behavior?" MITP

          The emergence of a sense of self takes about two years to develop post
          birth. This sense has been identified in humans, monkeys, dolphins, birds,
          elephants etc where the common test is the 'mirror' test - getting the life
          form to recognise itself in a mirror. The DIFFERENCES are in the huge mass
          of neurons and their rich connectivities that we have as humans compared to
          other neuron-dependent life forms. The rich connectivities are essential and
          our long development time (upto early 20s for frontal lobe development
          completion) gives us a huge advantage in developing proactive mediation
          skills. The dynamics of our symmetric nature as a determined species (and so
          a closed system) is extended to cover local context interactions (open
          system dynamics), positive feedback (and so high levels of discretisation
          and amplification), high sample rates (differentiating with high precision),
          where such contribute to the development of self-organising systems - we
          take on unique identity that can contribute to the species as a whole.

          Environmental pressures bring out a demand for more and more
          distinction-making and so more and more border creations (positive feedback
          at work). What THIS does is let loose what lives on borders -
          complexity/chaos dynamics. As such a social whole will start to fragment and
          life in general 'speeds up' and become less determined, more competitive,
          and we move into probabilistic thinking over deductive thinking.

          The movement into probabilistic thinking introduces us to a realm of
          uncertainty/doubt and THAT realm is the ground from which mediation dynamics
          is born. This realm is useful in that it aids in 'refining' the deductive
          thinking of symmetry, we refine our instincts/habits and so benefit from
          energy conservation as we age. HOWEVER, we also note that the fragmenting of
          a whole into parts or 'lesser wholes' also leads to emergence of new wholes
          (gets into economic dynamics, corporation formations, monopoly capitalism
          etc); we see the dynamics of self-organisation at work where a dynamic
          context demands change to keep up with development, and that includes
          fragmentation/re-configuration; symmetry without direction becomes sterile,
          decadence, 'post modern' ;-) Overall there is a movement from the
          cooperative to the competitive to the cooperative etc - in a sociological
          sense this is a movement from the egalitarian to the aristocratic to the
          egalitarian etc and is covered in recent work on small world networks etc.

          The development of consciousness as language covers the emergence of
          mediation dynamics in dealing with local contexts and as such grounds
          language/consciousness in uncertainty. This ground is discoverable when we
          move to meta-level analysis of specialist languages - such as Gödel's focus
          on mathematics or Heisenberg's focus on basic physics. NOT understanding the
          dynamics of the neurology has led to a perspective of uncertainty being the
          ground of the universe when in fact it is only the ground of mediation.
          Certainty is in the realm of the UNCONSCIOUS in the form of
          instincts/habits/memories. What is implicit in this is that to maintain the
          precision possible in mediation we have to (a) store the mediation processes
          and (b) never stop mediating since to do so is to surrender to symmetry and
          so live off instincts/habits and so fall back on approximations, on generals
          and so lose local context sensitivity (and that includes the dynamics of
          subjectivity).

          The essential feature here in regard to consciousness is in its emergence
          from relational space, mediation space, and so its dependence on movement,
          on dynamics, to exist. If there is nothing to mediate we fall back on
          instincts/habits aka auto-pilot. This focus presents us with the perspective
          of the monadic of Leibnitz (symmetry bias, the 'one', a closed system) and
          the dyadic perspective of Descartes (anti-symmetry/asymmetry where a parts
          perspective can be transcended by emergence of a unique form out of
          relational space - this can also elicit paradox).

          Given the dynamics of existentialism, the lived perspective that demands
          mediation at all times with local context, so its grounding is in the cogito
          and with that comes the at time chronic sense of uncertainty.

          Chris
          http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html
        • chris lofting
          ... The path to higher education is a path to de-socialisation (social fragmentation as individuals learn to fight for themselves). The core focus on
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 7 6:00 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bhvwd
            > Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 9:48 AM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling.
            > Discussions
            > > seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just
            > a
            > > discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to
            > get
            > > emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
            > > unless is directly relates to philosophy.
            > >
            > >
            > > - Susan
            > >Philosophy of education. It appears education is a prime target for
            > reductions in the stimulus package. There seems bipartisan
            > rejection of higher spending on education. People do not like
            > the orientation of educational philosophy. They come from all
            > over the political spectrum and dislike education for
            > multiple reasons.

            The path to higher education is a path to de-socialisation (social
            fragmentation as individuals learn to 'fight' for themselves). The core
            focus on education is socialisation at the primary/secondary/cheap-tertiary
            levels. The other form of education is education for understanding and that
            can be considered 'dangerous' to the current crop of politicians etc. High
            level tertiary education or extreme specialist master-apprentice education
            can be interpreted as a waste of money - it does not maintain the capitalist
            turn-over requirements of goods and services within a generation. The
            standard sequence of PROCESS is defined by four categories - production,
            distribution, filtration, exchange. These then break down into:

            production: re-production, new production
            distribution: external, internal (aka consumption)
            filtration: unconditional, conditional
            exchange: competitive, cooperative

            re-production is less costly than new production.
            unconditional filtration is less costly then conditional (the latter where
            quality control is in the hands of subjectivity rather than imposed from
            without).
            competitive exchange is less costly than cooperative in that the latter sets
            up dependencies that can 'block' extremes where it is in extremes that
            capitalism makes money (the current crisis was predicated some time ago and
            many 'in the know' got out then - mindful greed dominated mindless greed -
            or else used the bail-out money 'inappropriately')

            Extended education expands the 'filtration' realm and that is detrimental to
            capitalism that prefers that area to be only dominated by 'market forces'.

            The high end education is thus sold to capitalism to cover the R&D costs or
            else are covered in joint university/corporate development. The latter is an
            issue in that it can 'corrupt' 'education for understanding' in that the
            understanding is copyrighted etc and access restricted and so if filtration
            cannot be stopped other than for 'market forces' then it is managed by
            capitalism itself - potential filtering rules etc are restricted/delayed in
            publication/release or made too costly for the average person to acquire.

            The attraction of higher education is for the more asymmetric thinkers
            where, on the other hand, most are maintained at a symmetric level of
            thinking, social/dream-like, repetition, reflection etc (all properties of
            symmetry) dominate.

            AN issue is with the selling of PhDs where the requirements have become
            increasingly specialist (to a level of being potentially meaningless outside
            of a very few) or commercially sponsored and/or dumbed down - symmetrised.
            In a country where education is mostly free, public scrutiny of PhD work can
            raise eyebrows from a social perspective (usually brought to attention by
            the press) - 'why are we spending hundreds of thousands on some research PhD
            into the life cycle of a specialist worm living in a 1/2 acre plot of grass
            on the south side of a particular mountain when our schools and hospitals
            are short staffed due to lack of funds?' etc etc etc

            Note that these days, due to the past conservative government, public
            university comes with fees in the form of a government loan that is then
            paid off (automatically deducted from one's salary as part of tax) after one
            has graduated and starts to earn an income beyond a certain amount. There
            is also a second level of entry into university through paying upfront for
            those who did not make it with high entry scores.

            Most of that government got THEIR degrees for nix. The public universities
            also had their funding cut and were encouraged to seek out funds from
            corporations and so opened up issues of possible 'corruptions' - something
            already present in selling degrees, dropping standards to attract overseas
            students with money etc etc.

            From a SPECIES perspective, the development path has been to the emergence
            of reason from emotion and consciousness from reason. The DEMAND is to
            educate the brain, more so our frontal lobes/pre-frontal cortex and so how
            to use top-down regulation of our primate instincts; to use delay to refine
            our instincts if not to suppress them. Without that level of education all
            we have are 'smart apes' (as well as issues where our physiological
            development is slower than the demands of a consciousness-dominated society
            and we can be forced to 'grow up' prematurely).

            Chris
            http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.