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Against bad manners

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  • louise
    Most white people live like animals. One should not ask why. It is impertinent, rather than philosophical. A few foreigners taught me this truth.
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
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      Most white people live like animals. One should not ask why. It is
      impertinent, rather than philosophical. A few foreigners taught me
      this truth.

      Professional Investigator
    • eupraxis@aol.com
      Was that irony, too? W ... From: louise To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am Subject: [existlist] Against
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
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        Was that irony, too?

        W







        -----Original Message-----
        From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am
        Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners

























        Most white people live like animals. One should not ask why. It is

        impertinent, rather than philosophical. A few foreigners taught me

        this truth.



        Professional Investigator






















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • louise
        Irony cannot be taught. You need to learn. Read Kierkegaard. With humility. On second thoughts, don t take my advice. It s not good for you. Listening
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
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          Irony cannot be taught. You need to learn. Read Kierkegaard. With
          humility. On second thoughts, don't take my advice. It's not good
          for you.

          Listening Proficient

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
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          > Was that irony, too?
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          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am
          > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners
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        • louise
          Wil, You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a resurgence of
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
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            Wil,

            You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics
            renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a
            resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,
            sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an
            unpleasant burden to bear.

            Louise

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
            >
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            > Was that irony, too?
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            > W
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am
            > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners
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          • eupraxis@aol.com
            Louise, I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing to a bout of
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
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              Louise,

              I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing to a bout of paranoia. I realize that you have certain difficulties due to your psychological condition, but I must say that I am really becoming tired of it, and I wish you would restrain your outbursts at least a little.

              Wil







              -----Original Message-----
              From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:35 pm
              Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners

























              Wil,



              You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics

              renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a

              resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,

              sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an

              unpleasant burden to bear.



              Louise



              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

              >

              >

              > Was that irony, too?

              >

              > W

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              > -----Original Message-----

              > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

              > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am

              > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners

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              > this truth.

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              > Professional Investigator

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            • poisson
              i am trying to understand what both of you are talking about!! you too, try to understand!! poisson ... rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
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                i am trying to understand what both of you are talking about!!
                you too, try to understand!!

                poisson


                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > Louise,
                >
                > I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics
                rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing to
                a bout of paranoia. I realize that you have certain difficulties due
                to your psychological condition, but I must say that I am really
                becoming tired of it, and I wish you would restrain your outbursts at
                least a little.
                >
                > Wil
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:35 pm
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
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                > Wil,
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                > You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics
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                > renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a
                >
                > resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,
                >
                > sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an
                >
                > unpleasant burden to bear.
                >
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                >
                > Louise
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                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
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                > > -----Original Message-----
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                > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
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                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
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                > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am
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                > > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners
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              • eupraxis@aol.com
                As far as I go, I am a left leaning liberal, against racist ideas, against any impingement of liberty by the dictates of religion, against Corporatism,
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
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                  As far as I go, I am a left leaning liberal, against racist ideas, against any impingement of liberty by the dictates of religion, against Corporatism, militarism, Neo-Conservatism, etc.? This has, for some reason, earned me the charge of ill will and untrustworthiness by Louise. I will leave it to her to explain herself.

                  Wil




                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: poisson <poissontelescope@...>
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:57 pm
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners

























                  i am trying to understand what both of you are talking about!!

                  you too, try to understand!!



                  poisson



                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

                  >

                  >

                  > Louise,

                  >

                  > I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics

                  rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing to

                  a bout of paranoia. I realize that you have certain difficulties due

                  to your psychological condition, but I must say that I am really

                  becoming tired of it, and I wish you would restrain your outbursts at

                  least a little.

                  >

                  > Wil

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > -----Original Message-----

                  > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                  > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:35 pm

                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners

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                  > You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics

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                  > renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a

                  >

                  > resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,

                  >

                  > sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an

                  >

                  > unpleasant burden to bear.

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > Louise

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:

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                  > > Was that irony, too?

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                  > > -----Original Message-----

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                  > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

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                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                  >

                  > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am

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                  > > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • louise
                  Wil, Your politics is based on extreme ignorance. My so-called psychological condition is my own business. Please stop personalising all discussion here. As
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Wil,

                    Your politics is based on extreme ignorance. My so-called
                    psychological condition is my own business. Please stop
                    personalising all discussion here. As I said before, if you do not
                    like my posts, ignore them. If that leaves you resentful, so be it.
                    I am tired, too, of apologising for what is not my fault. Who do you
                    think you are, a moderator??? In addition, kindly reflect on your
                    own faults before pointing at mine.

                    Louise

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Louise,
                    >
                    > I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics
                    rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing
                    to a bout of paranoia. I realize that you have certain difficulties
                    due to your psychological condition, but I must say that I am really
                    becoming tired of it, and I wish you would restrain your outbursts at
                    least a little.
                    >
                    > Wil
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:35 pm
                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
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                    > Wil,
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                    > You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics
                    >
                    > renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a
                    >
                    > resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,
                    >
                    > sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an
                    >
                    > unpleasant burden to bear.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Louise
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                    >
                    > >
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                    > > Was that irony, too?
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                    > > -----Original Message-----
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                    > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                    >
                    > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am
                    >
                    > > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners
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                    me
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                  • eupraxis@aol.com
                    L, Your outbursts are getting out of control. You call me untrustworthy and blame my politics, and then resent my calling you on it. That s rich. And you are
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      L,

                      Your outbursts are getting out of control. You call me untrustworthy and blame my politics, and then resent my calling you on it. That's rich. And you are so right: your mental condition is your own business, so stop talking about it!

                      Wil







                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 1:23 pm
                      Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners

























                      Wil,



                      Your politics is based on extreme ignorance. My so-called

                      psychological condition is my own business. Please stop

                      personalising all discussion here. As I said before, if you do not

                      like my posts, ignore them. If that leaves you resentful, so be it.

                      I am tired, too, of apologising for what is not my fault. Who do you

                      think you are, a moderator??? In addition, kindly reflect on your

                      own faults before pointing at mine.



                      Louise



                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

                      >

                      >

                      > Louise,

                      >

                      > I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics

                      rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing

                      to a bout of paranoia. I realize that you have certain difficulties

                      due to your psychological condition, but I must say that I am really

                      becoming tired of it, and I wish you would restrain your outbursts at

                      least a little.

                      >

                      > Wil

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > -----Original Message-----

                      > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                      > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:35 pm

                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners

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                      > Wil,

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                      >

                      > You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics

                      >

                      > renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a

                      >

                      > resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,

                      >

                      > sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an

                      >

                      > unpleasant burden to bear.

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Louise

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:

                      >

                      > >

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                      > > Was that irony, too?

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                      > > -----Original Message-----

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                      > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                      >

                      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                      >

                      > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am

                      >

                      > > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners

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                      > > Most white people live like animals. One should not ask why. It

                      >

                      > is

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > impertinent, rather than philosophical. A few foreigners taught

                      me

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > this truth.

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > >

                      >

                      > > Professional Investigator

                      >

                      > >

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                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >






















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • louise
                      dear poisson, we are not talking about anything very significant, i suspect. emotion is in the ascendant. it is sad, to realise how obscure the experience of
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        dear poisson,

                        we are not talking about anything very significant, i suspect.
                        emotion is in the ascendant. it is sad, to realise how obscure the
                        experience of others can become to our own, clouded vision.
                        philosophy used to help me see more clearly. whilst i try to find my
                        way, i am often hindered by those who are trying to help.

                        louise


                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "poisson" <poissontelescope@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > i am trying to understand what both of you are talking about!!
                        > you too, try to understand!!
                        >
                        > poisson
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Louise,
                        > >
                        > > I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics
                        > rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing to
                        > a bout of paranoia. I realize that you have certain difficulties due
                        > to your psychological condition, but I must say that I am really
                        > becoming tired of it, and I wish you would restrain your outbursts at
                        > least a little.
                        > >
                        > > Wil
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:35 pm
                        > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
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                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Wil,
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics
                        > >
                        > > renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a
                        > >
                        > > resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,
                        > >
                        > > sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an
                        > >
                        > > unpleasant burden to bear.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Louise
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Was that irony, too?
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > W
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > >
                        > > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                        > >
                        > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am
                        > >
                        > > > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
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                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Most white people live like animals. One should not ask why. It
                        > >
                        > > is
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > impertinent, rather than philosophical. A few foreigners taught me
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > this truth.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > Professional Investigator
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
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                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > >
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                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                      • louise
                        ... against any impingement of liberty by the dictates of religion, against Corporatism, militarism, Neo-Conservatism, etc.? This has, for some reason, earned
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > As far as I go, I am a left leaning liberal, against racist ideas,
                          against any impingement of liberty by the dictates of religion,
                          against Corporatism, militarism, Neo-Conservatism, etc.? This has, for
                          some reason, earned me the charge of ill will and untrustworthiness by
                          Louise. I will leave it to her to explain herself.
                          >
                          > Wil

                          Wil,

                          The charge of untrustworthiness has something to do with the fact that
                          you described yourself as the devil. Considering that you already
                          knew of my wrestlings with the Christian faith, and of what you
                          consider to be a set of psychological problems, it does seem rather
                          irresponsible, to take such a line. Maybe the devil is a racist,
                          after all? Do you believe that concepts like racism, which are widely
                          used in the realm of political debate, are above discussion, forever
                          fixed to mean what left leaning liberals consider they mean?

                          Louise

                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: poisson <poissontelescope@...>
                          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:57 pm
                          > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > i am trying to understand what both of you are talking about!!
                          >
                          > you too, try to understand!!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > poisson
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Louise,
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics
                          >
                          > rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing to
                          >
                          > a bout of paranoia. I realize that you have certain difficulties due
                          >
                          > to your psychological condition, but I must say that I am really
                          >
                          > becoming tired of it, and I wish you would restrain your outbursts at
                          >
                          > least a little.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Wil
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          >
                          > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                          >
                          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:35 pm
                          >
                          > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
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                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Wil,
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > unpleasant burden to bear.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Louise
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Was that irony, too?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > W
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
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                          > >
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                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Most white people live like animals. One should not ask why. It
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > is
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > impertinent, rather than philosophical. A few foreigners taught me
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > this truth.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > > Professional Investigator
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > >
                          >
                          > >
                          >
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                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
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                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
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                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • eupraxis@aol.com
                          Louise, Please! Get off it. The devil, indeed! Hah! If you have something to say about racism, go right ahead. My position is already out there. It is a
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Louise,

                            Please! Get off it. The devil, indeed! Hah!

                            If you have something to say about racism, go right ahead. My position is already out there. It is a position that I hold fast to. Racism is never a correct position.

                            Wil




                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 5:23 pm
                            Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners

























                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

                            >

                            >

                            > As far as I go, I am a left leaning liberal, against racist ideas,

                            against any impingement of liberty by the dictates of religion,

                            against Corporatism, militarism, Neo-Conservatism, etc.? This has, for

                            some reason, earned me the charge of ill will and untrustworthiness by

                            Louise. I will leave it to her to explain herself.

                            >

                            > Wil



                            Wil,



                            The charge of untrustworthiness has something to do with the fact that

                            you described yourself as the devil. Considering that you already

                            knew of my wrestlings with the Christian faith, and of what you

                            consider to be a set of psychological problems, it does seem rather

                            irresponsible, to take such a line. Maybe the devil is a racist,

                            after all? Do you believe that concepts like racism, which are widely

                            used in the realm of political debate, are above discussion, forever

                            fixed to mean what left leaning liberals consider they mean?



                            Louise



                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > -----Original Message-----

                            > From: poisson <poissontelescope@...>

                            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                            > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:57 pm

                            > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > i am trying to understand what both of you are talking about!!

                            >

                            > you too, try to understand!!

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > poisson

                            >

                            >

                            >

                            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > Louise,

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics

                            >

                            > rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing to

                            >

                            > a bout of paranoia. I realize that you have certain difficulties due

                            >

                            > to your psychological condition, but I must say that I am really

                            >

                            > becoming tired of it, and I wish you would restrain your outbursts at

                            >

                            > least a little.

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > Wil

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > -----Original Message-----

                            >

                            > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                            >

                            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                            >

                            > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:35 pm

                            >

                            > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

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                            > >

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                            > >

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                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > Wil,

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > unpleasant burden to bear.

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > Louise

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:

                            >

                            > >

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                            > > >

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                            > > > Was that irony, too?

                            >

                            > >

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                            > > >

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                            >

                            > > > W

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                            > > > -----Original Message-----

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                            >

                            > >

                            >

                            > > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am

                            >

                            > >

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                            > > > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners

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                            > > > Most white people live like animals. One should not ask why. It

                            >

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                            > > is

                            >

                            > >

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                            > > >

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                            > > > impertinent, rather than philosophical. A few foreigners taught me

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                            > > > this truth.

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                            > > > Professional Investigator

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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • louise
                            Wil, There are many readers at this list. Anyone who is interested in the exchanges between us may draw their own conclusions. You do not show any
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Wil,

                              There are many readers at this list. Anyone who is interested in the
                              exchanges between us may draw their own conclusions. You do not show
                              any inclination to conduct a philosophical debate, nor even to answer
                              basic questions. It was not so long ago you were wanting to 'argue my
                              case', as I recall, whatever you conceive that to be. The devil is a
                              most controversial gentleman, and one should not casually invoke him.
                              As to race, it is a very complex matter. I do not consider myself
                              particularly qualified to offer new insights, at this stage.

                              Louise

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Louise,
                              >
                              > Please! Get off it. The devil, indeed! Hah!
                              >
                              > If you have something to say about racism, go right ahead. My
                              position is already out there. It is a position that I hold fast to.
                              Racism is never a correct position.
                              >
                              > Wil
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 5:23 pm
                              > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > As far as I go, I am a left leaning liberal, against racist ideas,
                              >
                              > against any impingement of liberty by the dictates of religion,
                              >
                              > against Corporatism, militarism, Neo-Conservatism, etc.? This has, for
                              >
                              > some reason, earned me the charge of ill will and untrustworthiness by
                              >
                              > Louise. I will leave it to her to explain herself.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Wil
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Wil,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The charge of untrustworthiness has something to do with the fact that
                              >
                              > you described yourself as the devil. Considering that you already
                              >
                              > knew of my wrestlings with the Christian faith, and of what you
                              >
                              > consider to be a set of psychological problems, it does seem rather
                              >
                              > irresponsible, to take such a line. Maybe the devil is a racist,
                              >
                              > after all? Do you believe that concepts like racism, which are widely
                              >
                              > used in the realm of political debate, are above discussion, forever
                              >
                              > fixed to mean what left leaning liberals consider they mean?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Louise
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              >
                              > > From: poisson <poissontelescope@>
                              >
                              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:57 pm
                              >
                              > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
                              >
                              > >
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                              >
                              > > i am trying to understand what both of you are talking about!!
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > you too, try to understand!!
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > poisson
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Louise,
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > I have no idea what you are talking about. As far as my politics
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > rendering me as untrustworthy, I fear that you are again succumbing to
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > a bout of paranoia. I realize that you have certain difficulties due
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > to your psychological condition, but I must say that I am really
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > becoming tired of it, and I wish you would restrain your outbursts at
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > least a little.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Wil
                              >
                              > >
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                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:35 pm
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
                              >
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                              > > > Wil,
                              >
                              > >
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                              > > >
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                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
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                              >
                              > > > You once asked me to trust you. Now I know that your politics
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > renders you untrustworthy. This grieves me. We are witnessing a
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > resurgence of totalitarian horror, and you seem unaware. I do,
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > sadly, understand the reasons for your ignorance. It is an
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > unpleasant burden to bear.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
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                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
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                              > > >
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                              >
                              > > > Louise
                              >
                              > >
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                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
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                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Was that irony, too?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
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                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > W
                              >
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                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > -----Original Message-----
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Sent: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:32 am
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > Subject: [existlist] Against bad manners
                              >
                              > >
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                              > > > > Most white people live like animals. One should not ask why. It
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > is
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
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                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > impertinent, rather than philosophical. A few foreigners
                              taught me
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > > >
                              >
                              > >
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                              > > >
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                              > >
                              >
                              > > > > this truth.
                              >
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                            • eupraxis@aol.com
                              Wil, You do not show any inclination to conduct a philosophical debate, nor even to answer basic questions. Response: No, I do not see any reason to accede
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
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                                Wil,

                                "You do not show any inclination to conduct a philosophical debate, nor even
                                to answer basic questions."

                                Response: No, I do not see any reason to accede to your skewed view on the
                                subjects of religion and race. You just cannot accept that.
                                ---
                                "It was not so long ago you were wanting to 'argue my case', as I recall,
                                whatever you conceive that to be."

                                Response: My mistake.
                                ---
                                "The devil is a most controversial gentleman, and one should not casually
                                invoke him."

                                Response: A fiction.
                                ---
                                "As to race, it is a very complex matter."

                                Response: Also a fiction.

                                Wil




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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • jimstuart51
                                Louise, Wil, Just to try to clarify a misunderstanding which has been running through your communication for weeks now. Wil in a post to me wrote: Thanks for
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 26, 2009
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                                  Louise, Wil,

                                  Just to try to clarify a misunderstanding which has been running
                                  through your communication for weeks now.

                                  Wil in a post to me wrote: "Thanks for the seriousness that you have
                                  brought to this question. I want you to understand that, as much as I
                                  am seriously answering your comments, I am playing devil's advocate
                                  as well." (post 46400)

                                  Louise do you not know the meaning of the term "devil's advocate"? It
                                  means "taking the opposite point of view just as an argumentative
                                  strategy". Wil was not referring to any supernatural being. He was
                                  not claiming to be the devil himself. Nor was he suggesting that you
                                  were the devil, and he wished to act as your advocate. He was merely
                                  flagging up that some of his arguments in the post may be ones he
                                  does not one hundred percent endorse.

                                  On a separate matter: Wil, you never responded to my post 46726. Does
                                  that mean you are happy with everything I write in that post?

                                  Jim
                                • eupraxis@aol.com
                                  Jim, Thanks, yes, I was in broad agreement with that post. I am reading a book just now by G. K. Chesterton, The Everlasting Man, a pro-Christain (or
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 27, 2009
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                                    Jim,

                                    Thanks, yes, I was in broad agreement with that post.

                                    I am reading a book just now by G. K. Chesterton, The Everlasting Man, a
                                    pro-Christain (or pro-Catholic) position piece that seems to perform a 'poor
                                    man's' reduction to the naïve experience of the Christian story so that, in its
                                    alien simplicity, the truth can appear without "familiarity-bred contempt". This
                                    text is reputedly the one that made C. S. Lewis renounce his atheism.
                                    Chesterton's idea is that the more one tries to, for example, see Man as an animal,
                                    the more one is compelled to see him more as more than an animal. Chesterton's
                                    idea is that the move to the naïve, in the technical sense, can return one to
                                    the wonder of a child and can thus allow one to see the Christian story out
                                    from under the weight of the cynicism that is otherwise encrusted to it after
                                    decades of institutional doubt.

                                    I am only just into the text, so I cannot say how successful this will be in
                                    the long run. I have my doubts, however. The point, though, is that Chesterton
                                    sees this 'reductive attitude' as capable of returning a sense of awe to the
                                    world. Whether this makes one more objective or just less critical is another
                                    question.

                                    As to the matter of el Diablo, let us remember that Louise has brought up
                                    Aleister Crowley, who enjoyed calling himself The Baphomet (a moniker for Satan),
                                    on several occasions over the years, and just recently, and always in a good
                                    light. So this posing of maudlin outrage at a passing phrase, even if
                                    'misunderstood', seems a tad artificial to me. I have read a good many of Crowley's
                                    texts (I, too, enjoy Crowley), and there is no way that one so apparently prone
                                    to blushing can have survived the experience without either renouncing all
                                    religious sanctimony or tossing those texts in the bin.

                                    Wil


                                    In a message dated 1/27/09 1:19:34 AM, jjimstuart1@... writes:


                                    > Louise, Wil,
                                    >
                                    > Just to try to clarify a misunderstanding which has been running
                                    > through your communication for weeks now.
                                    >
                                    > Wil in a post to me wrote: "Thanks for the seriousness that you have
                                    > brought to this question. I want you to understand that, as much as I
                                    > am seriously answering your comments, I am playing devil's advocate
                                    > as well." (post 46400)
                                    >
                                    > Louise do you not know the meaning of the term "devil's advocate"? It
                                    > means "taking the opposite point of view just as an argumentative
                                    > strategy". Wil was not referring to any supernatural being. He was
                                    > not claiming to be the devil himself. Nor was he suggesting that you
                                    > were the devil, and he wished to act as your advocate. He was merely
                                    > flagging up that some of his arguments in the post may be ones he
                                    > does not one hundred percent endorse.
                                    >
                                    > On a separate matter: Wil, you never responded to my post 46726. Does
                                    > that mean you are happy with everything I write in that post?
                                    >
                                    > Jim
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >




                                    **************
                                    Know Your Numbers: Get tips and tools to help you improve your
                                    credit score.
                                    (http://www.walletpop.com/credit/credit-reports?ncid=emlcntuswall00000002)


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • jimstuart51
                                    Wil, I haven t read any G. K. Chesterton or any Aleister Crowley, although I do know a bit about Crowley. I think if we can somehow gain a sense of awe and
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 27, 2009
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                                      Wil,

                                      I haven't read any G. K. Chesterton or any Aleister Crowley,
                                      although I do know a bit about Crowley.

                                      I think if we can somehow gain a sense of awe and wonder, then that
                                      it a good thing. The fact that I am currently alive and living on a
                                      complex planet which has both natural features and the imprint of
                                      human beings is a strange fact indeed, and not something to be taken
                                      for granted in a matter-of-fact way. No doubt Bill will think of such
                                      talk as more sentimental nonsense from Jesus Boy, however, I don't
                                      think that re-gaining a sense of awe and wonder has any necessary
                                      connection with theism or the religious.

                                      Crowley is an intriguing and charismatic figure, but also a dangerous
                                      person to take as a role model, in my view. It is good to examine
                                      life, and explore areas away from the mainstream. However, I gather a
                                      number of Crowley's followers ended up in a mess, and Crowley wasn't
                                      particularly sensitive to the well-being of others.

                                      Jim
                                    • eupraxis@aol.com
                                      Jim, Crowley was a character, to be sure. He was philosophically well-read, and in fact just plain well-read, and his odd view on epistemology and ontology,
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 27, 2009
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                                        Jim,

                                        Crowley was a character, to be sure. He was philosophically well-read, and in fact just plain well-read, and his odd view on epistemology and ontology, which he called Magick, has more depth than is usually granted it, but it is ultimately more show than substance. Everyone has his or her own method of interpreting Crowley; I see him as a materialistic atheist who tried to maintain a vision of transcendence by the manipulation of one's own subjectivity.

                                        SAMSON (The Book of Lies)
                                        The Universe is in equilibrium; therefore He that is
                                        without it, though his force be but a feather, can
                                        overturn the Universe.

                                        My favorite texts are Magick in Theory and Practice; Magic Without Tears; The Confessions; The Book of Lies; and The Vision and the Voice. There is a nice compendium, reissued and updated last year, called "Portable Darkness". There are many bios out. Each one says more about the author than it does about Crowley, in my opinion. I recently read, "Do What Thou Wilt: A Life of Aleister Crowley", by Lawrence Sutin. Awful book. Skip it. My appreciation of Crowley comes down to my admiration for those who become a real scandal to Society. A dying breed.

                                        Wil







                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: jimstuart51 <jjimstuart1@...>
                                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:03 am
                                        Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners

























                                        Wil,



                                        I haven't read any G. K. Chesterton or any Aleister Crowley,

                                        although I do know a bit about Crowley.



                                        I think if we can somehow gain a sense of awe and wonder, then that

                                        it a good thing. The fact that I am currently alive and living on a

                                        complex planet which has both natural features and the imprint of

                                        human beings is a strange fact indeed, and not something to be taken

                                        for granted in a matter-of-fact way. No doubt Bill will think of such

                                        talk as more sentimental nonsense from Jesus Boy, however, I don't

                                        think that re-gaining a sense of awe and wonder has any necessary

                                        connection with theism or the religious.



                                        Crowley is an intriguing and charismatic figure, but also a dangerous

                                        person to take as a role model, in my view. It is good to examine

                                        life, and explore areas away from the mainstream. However, I gather a

                                        number of Crowley's followers ended up in a mess, and Crowley wasn't

                                        particularly sensitive to the well-being of others.



                                        Jim






















                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • tom
                                        Jim, I have heard in recent years the distinction being made between religious and spiritual. Religous implies the acceptance of dogma and membership in a
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 27, 2009
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                                          Jim,

                                          I have heard in recent years the distinction being made between religious and spiritual. Religous implies the acceptance of dogma and membership in a particular church, whereas spiritual implies the experience of syncronicities, near death experiences, and other things that cast some doubt on the materialistic, reductionist, aetheistic paradigms. The fact that historically religions have been so entwined with various political and economic powers, tends to make a person dubious of their validity. On the other hand, of all the creation myths I find the materialistic, aetheistic idea of the cosmos and ecosystems evolving as they did being the result of randomness the most improbable. Crowley was strongly anti Christian. He had been raised in a very strict Christian atmosphere. However, Crowley was far from a reductionist, materialist aetheist.

                                          Tom
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: jimstuart51
                                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:03 AM
                                          Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners


                                          Wil,

                                          I haven't read any G. K. Chesterton or any Aleister Crowley,
                                          although I do know a bit about Crowley.

                                          I think if we can somehow gain a sense of awe and wonder, then that
                                          it a good thing. The fact that I am currently alive and living on a
                                          complex planet which has both natural features and the imprint of
                                          human beings is a strange fact indeed, and not something to be taken
                                          for granted in a matter-of-fact way. No doubt Bill will think of such
                                          talk as more sentimental nonsense from Jesus Boy, however, I don't
                                          think that re-gaining a sense of awe and wonder has any necessary
                                          connection with theism or the religious.

                                          Crowley is an intriguing and charismatic figure, but also a dangerous
                                          person to take as a role model, in my view. It is good to examine
                                          life, and explore areas away from the mainstream. However, I gather a
                                          number of Crowley's followers ended up in a mess, and Crowley wasn't
                                          particularly sensitive to the well-being of others.

                                          Jim





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Susan Schnelbach
                                          All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling. Discussions seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just a discussion group
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 7, 2009
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                                            All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling. Discussions
                                            seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just a
                                            discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to get
                                            emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
                                            unless is directly relates to philosophy.


                                            - Susan
                                          • Herman B. Triplegood
                                            I am reading Being and Nothingness right now. I m about halfway through it. And I am impressed. Sartre is more Cartesian than Descartes ever was. And that
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 7, 2009
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                                              I am reading Being and Nothingness right now. I'm about halfway through
                                              it. And I am impressed.

                                              Sartre is more Cartesian than Descartes ever was. And that isn't
                                              necessarily a "bad thing" either. He is making some very good points
                                              about the centrality of the cogito. Points that Descartes and the early
                                              generation of Cartesians, of course, could not have seen. Points that
                                              Husserl, as Cartesian as Husserl claims to be, apparently totally
                                              missed. But I am withholding judgment on that, for now. At least, until
                                              after I get to Husserl's Crisis. Maybe longer. I see some of the major
                                              gaps in my reading now. I need to go back and pick up Locke, Berkeley,
                                              Hume. But the Crisis will be my next reading task. It is Husserl's
                                              ostensive answer to the existentialist movement. I want to see what
                                              Husserl had to say about it. And...Sartre takes Heidegger to task for
                                              sidestepping the cogito, the fact of subjectivity, entirely. Now there
                                              is a point to consider. Obviously, when Heidegger says "Dasein" he
                                              means human being. But without consciousness taken explicitly into
                                              account, can that formulation really be to the point? Is that, perhaps,
                                              what Wil was driving at a while back when he took Heidegger to task for
                                              losing subjectivity in a negative theology? Anyway, there really is a
                                              sense in which, when it comes right down to it, we are ALL Cartesians
                                              in this day and age. Our subjectivity, and what that is all about, has
                                              become our central philosophical issue. We should not ignore that or
                                              try to explain it away. It seems to me that a Cartesianism and an
                                              Existentialism would go hand in hand. What do you all think about that?

                                              Hb3g

                                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling. Discussions
                                              > seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just
                                              a
                                              > discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to
                                              get
                                              > emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
                                              > unless is directly relates to philosophy.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > - Susan
                                              >
                                            • bhvwd
                                              ... Discussions ... a ... get ... reductions in the stimulus package. There seems bipartisan rejection of higher spending on education. People do not like the
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 7, 2009
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                                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling.
                                                Discussions
                                                > seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just
                                                a
                                                > discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to
                                                get
                                                > emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
                                                > unless is directly relates to philosophy.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > - Susan
                                                >Philosophy of education. It appears education is a prime target for
                                                reductions in the stimulus package. There seems bipartisan rejection
                                                of higher spending on education. People do not like the orientation
                                                of educational philosophy. They come from all over the political
                                                spectrum and dislike education for multiple reasons.
                                                This trite phiolophy stuff may not seem important to an educator who
                                                just follows the lesson plans but some people see the glaring
                                                philosophical failure in education as part of the WWC. That is why
                                                you are being cut. Is that important to you? It is to me but
                                                probably for different reasons. The post modernist hocus pocus with
                                                correctness and deconstruction is not well accepted by a growing
                                                majority of tax payers. Any comments? Bill
                                              • chris lofting
                                                ... Our subjectivity, and what ... The cogito perspective covers the emergence of proactive mediation dynamics where self-referencing and
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Feb 7, 2009
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                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman B. Triplegood
                                                  > Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 9:43 AM
                                                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
                                                  >
                                                  <snip> Our subjectivity, and what
                                                  > that is all about, has become our central philosophical
                                                  > issue. We should not ignore that or try to explain it away.
                                                  > It seems to me that a Cartesianism and an Existentialism
                                                  > would go hand in hand. What do you all think about that?
                                                  >

                                                  The cogito perspective covers the emergence of proactive mediation dynamics
                                                  where self-referencing and self-organising systems develop. Physiologically
                                                  a sensory stimulus is met with an inappropriate, immediate, response and
                                                  mediation develops. In lesser life forms the mediation is 'mindless' and
                                                  covers a life form trying out its full repertoire of possible responses and
                                                  so 'out of context' behaviours in attempts to resolve the issue
                                                  (biochemically we get down to enzyme dynamics and the nature of catalysts).
                                                  With neural complexity comes emergence from mechanistic dynamics of a
                                                  teleological element in the form of pattern matching (analogy making) and
                                                  planning and on into language formation. As such the mediation involved in
                                                  resolving some issue is now communicatable to others and so speeds up
                                                  learning in a social context.

                                                  The essential feature of the cogito is DELAY in response and we can see this
                                                  at work in the laboratory where when learning there is a delay of at least
                                                  half a second in responses until the habit has formed at a level where
                                                  awareness is no longer needed and the delay disappears as we fall back on
                                                  stimulus/response. The initial discovery of this delay element in
                                                  experiments raised some issues about consciousness for those not willing to
                                                  accept that a lot of our behaviour is unconscious. See such as:

                                                  Pockett, S., Banks, W., & Gallagher, S., (eds)(2006)"Does Consciousness
                                                  Cause Behavior?" MITP

                                                  The emergence of a sense of self takes about two years to develop post
                                                  birth. This sense has been identified in humans, monkeys, dolphins, birds,
                                                  elephants etc where the common test is the 'mirror' test - getting the life
                                                  form to recognise itself in a mirror. The DIFFERENCES are in the huge mass
                                                  of neurons and their rich connectivities that we have as humans compared to
                                                  other neuron-dependent life forms. The rich connectivities are essential and
                                                  our long development time (upto early 20s for frontal lobe development
                                                  completion) gives us a huge advantage in developing proactive mediation
                                                  skills. The dynamics of our symmetric nature as a determined species (and so
                                                  a closed system) is extended to cover local context interactions (open
                                                  system dynamics), positive feedback (and so high levels of discretisation
                                                  and amplification), high sample rates (differentiating with high precision),
                                                  where such contribute to the development of self-organising systems - we
                                                  take on unique identity that can contribute to the species as a whole.

                                                  Environmental pressures bring out a demand for more and more
                                                  distinction-making and so more and more border creations (positive feedback
                                                  at work). What THIS does is let loose what lives on borders -
                                                  complexity/chaos dynamics. As such a social whole will start to fragment and
                                                  life in general 'speeds up' and become less determined, more competitive,
                                                  and we move into probabilistic thinking over deductive thinking.

                                                  The movement into probabilistic thinking introduces us to a realm of
                                                  uncertainty/doubt and THAT realm is the ground from which mediation dynamics
                                                  is born. This realm is useful in that it aids in 'refining' the deductive
                                                  thinking of symmetry, we refine our instincts/habits and so benefit from
                                                  energy conservation as we age. HOWEVER, we also note that the fragmenting of
                                                  a whole into parts or 'lesser wholes' also leads to emergence of new wholes
                                                  (gets into economic dynamics, corporation formations, monopoly capitalism
                                                  etc); we see the dynamics of self-organisation at work where a dynamic
                                                  context demands change to keep up with development, and that includes
                                                  fragmentation/re-configuration; symmetry without direction becomes sterile,
                                                  decadence, 'post modern' ;-) Overall there is a movement from the
                                                  cooperative to the competitive to the cooperative etc - in a sociological
                                                  sense this is a movement from the egalitarian to the aristocratic to the
                                                  egalitarian etc and is covered in recent work on small world networks etc.

                                                  The development of consciousness as language covers the emergence of
                                                  mediation dynamics in dealing with local contexts and as such grounds
                                                  language/consciousness in uncertainty. This ground is discoverable when we
                                                  move to meta-level analysis of specialist languages - such as Gödel's focus
                                                  on mathematics or Heisenberg's focus on basic physics. NOT understanding the
                                                  dynamics of the neurology has led to a perspective of uncertainty being the
                                                  ground of the universe when in fact it is only the ground of mediation.
                                                  Certainty is in the realm of the UNCONSCIOUS in the form of
                                                  instincts/habits/memories. What is implicit in this is that to maintain the
                                                  precision possible in mediation we have to (a) store the mediation processes
                                                  and (b) never stop mediating since to do so is to surrender to symmetry and
                                                  so live off instincts/habits and so fall back on approximations, on generals
                                                  and so lose local context sensitivity (and that includes the dynamics of
                                                  subjectivity).

                                                  The essential feature here in regard to consciousness is in its emergence
                                                  from relational space, mediation space, and so its dependence on movement,
                                                  on dynamics, to exist. If there is nothing to mediate we fall back on
                                                  instincts/habits aka auto-pilot. This focus presents us with the perspective
                                                  of the monadic of Leibnitz (symmetry bias, the 'one', a closed system) and
                                                  the dyadic perspective of Descartes (anti-symmetry/asymmetry where a parts
                                                  perspective can be transcended by emergence of a unique form out of
                                                  relational space - this can also elicit paradox).

                                                  Given the dynamics of existentialism, the lived perspective that demands
                                                  mediation at all times with local context, so its grounding is in the cogito
                                                  and with that comes the at time chronic sense of uncertainty.

                                                  Chris
                                                  http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html
                                                • chris lofting
                                                  ... The path to higher education is a path to de-socialisation (social fragmentation as individuals learn to fight for themselves). The core focus on
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Feb 7, 2009
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                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bhvwd
                                                    > Sent: Sunday, 8 February 2009 9:48 AM
                                                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: Against bad manners
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Susan Schnelbach <susan@...> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > All right, children. Play nice and no more name calling.
                                                    > Discussions
                                                    > > seem to be getting a little heated and rude. Remember, this is just
                                                    > a
                                                    > > discussion group about philosophy -- it isn't important enough to
                                                    > get
                                                    > > emotionally worked up about. Also, let's drop the political topics
                                                    > > unless is directly relates to philosophy.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > - Susan
                                                    > >Philosophy of education. It appears education is a prime target for
                                                    > reductions in the stimulus package. There seems bipartisan
                                                    > rejection of higher spending on education. People do not like
                                                    > the orientation of educational philosophy. They come from all
                                                    > over the political spectrum and dislike education for
                                                    > multiple reasons.

                                                    The path to higher education is a path to de-socialisation (social
                                                    fragmentation as individuals learn to 'fight' for themselves). The core
                                                    focus on education is socialisation at the primary/secondary/cheap-tertiary
                                                    levels. The other form of education is education for understanding and that
                                                    can be considered 'dangerous' to the current crop of politicians etc. High
                                                    level tertiary education or extreme specialist master-apprentice education
                                                    can be interpreted as a waste of money - it does not maintain the capitalist
                                                    turn-over requirements of goods and services within a generation. The
                                                    standard sequence of PROCESS is defined by four categories - production,
                                                    distribution, filtration, exchange. These then break down into:

                                                    production: re-production, new production
                                                    distribution: external, internal (aka consumption)
                                                    filtration: unconditional, conditional
                                                    exchange: competitive, cooperative

                                                    re-production is less costly than new production.
                                                    unconditional filtration is less costly then conditional (the latter where
                                                    quality control is in the hands of subjectivity rather than imposed from
                                                    without).
                                                    competitive exchange is less costly than cooperative in that the latter sets
                                                    up dependencies that can 'block' extremes where it is in extremes that
                                                    capitalism makes money (the current crisis was predicated some time ago and
                                                    many 'in the know' got out then - mindful greed dominated mindless greed -
                                                    or else used the bail-out money 'inappropriately')

                                                    Extended education expands the 'filtration' realm and that is detrimental to
                                                    capitalism that prefers that area to be only dominated by 'market forces'.

                                                    The high end education is thus sold to capitalism to cover the R&D costs or
                                                    else are covered in joint university/corporate development. The latter is an
                                                    issue in that it can 'corrupt' 'education for understanding' in that the
                                                    understanding is copyrighted etc and access restricted and so if filtration
                                                    cannot be stopped other than for 'market forces' then it is managed by
                                                    capitalism itself - potential filtering rules etc are restricted/delayed in
                                                    publication/release or made too costly for the average person to acquire.

                                                    The attraction of higher education is for the more asymmetric thinkers
                                                    where, on the other hand, most are maintained at a symmetric level of
                                                    thinking, social/dream-like, repetition, reflection etc (all properties of
                                                    symmetry) dominate.

                                                    AN issue is with the selling of PhDs where the requirements have become
                                                    increasingly specialist (to a level of being potentially meaningless outside
                                                    of a very few) or commercially sponsored and/or dumbed down - symmetrised.
                                                    In a country where education is mostly free, public scrutiny of PhD work can
                                                    raise eyebrows from a social perspective (usually brought to attention by
                                                    the press) - 'why are we spending hundreds of thousands on some research PhD
                                                    into the life cycle of a specialist worm living in a 1/2 acre plot of grass
                                                    on the south side of a particular mountain when our schools and hospitals
                                                    are short staffed due to lack of funds?' etc etc etc

                                                    Note that these days, due to the past conservative government, public
                                                    university comes with fees in the form of a government loan that is then
                                                    paid off (automatically deducted from one's salary as part of tax) after one
                                                    has graduated and starts to earn an income beyond a certain amount. There
                                                    is also a second level of entry into university through paying upfront for
                                                    those who did not make it with high entry scores.

                                                    Most of that government got THEIR degrees for nix. The public universities
                                                    also had their funding cut and were encouraged to seek out funds from
                                                    corporations and so opened up issues of possible 'corruptions' - something
                                                    already present in selling degrees, dropping standards to attract overseas
                                                    students with money etc etc.

                                                    From a SPECIES perspective, the development path has been to the emergence
                                                    of reason from emotion and consciousness from reason. The DEMAND is to
                                                    educate the brain, more so our frontal lobes/pre-frontal cortex and so how
                                                    to use top-down regulation of our primate instincts; to use delay to refine
                                                    our instincts if not to suppress them. Without that level of education all
                                                    we have are 'smart apes' (as well as issues where our physiological
                                                    development is slower than the demands of a consciousness-dominated society
                                                    and we can be forced to 'grow up' prematurely).

                                                    Chris
                                                    http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/AbstractDomain.html
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