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Re: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview CORRECTION

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  • eupraxis@aol.com
    Well, there are some, like Chomsky, who wonder if the US is heading towards being a failed state . If so, then the matter becomes very much more radicalized.
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 2, 2009
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      Well, there are some, like Chomsky, who wonder if the US is heading towards being a "failed state". If so, then the matter becomes very much more radicalized. But even then, and I would say especially then, I would advocate something far to the left.

      Wil




      -----Original Message-----
      From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 4:22 pm
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview CORRECTION

























      Wil,



      What is the best thing to do is usually a question that can't be answered authoritatizely and honestly. My point in listing the congressmen of both parties who have been convicted, indited, or investigated within the Bush years was to give some idea of the extent that legislation is slanted by bribery. I also make the point that for every one caught, there are many more that remain undetected. I'd guess the liklyhood of getting caught taking illegal gratuities is similar to getting caught speeding. If we have been popped for speeding 5 times in our life, we have probably got away with it thousands of times. You can then add in the various things that are legal but obviously unethical like congressmen, cabinet and subcabinet members, and even their aides and secretaries going directly from their government positions to lobbying jobs; and u begin to see how we have the best government money can buy.I did the math, and approximately 4 and 1/2% of congressmen have during the Bush administration been convicted, indited, or investigated.



      That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."

      - Thomas Jefferson



      The exact direction that should be followed is always uncertain;but the reality that corruption is so extremely prevalent in United States government at all levels is a very significant factor that might lend itself to being suspicious of any programs that tend to expand government. Jefferson, and many of his peers saw government as by nature likely to lend itself to corruption and tyrany. However, there was and is no question that some government is necesary to protect citizens from enemies, foreign and domestic. Interestingly, Jefferson did favor education being made available to all, so as I've said Jefferson like many of us was pulled between libertarian and liberal values. The northern European countries certainly appear to have much less a government corruption problem than us, so at this time it is practical for them to have a larger government than it is for us. The point has been made that the manner in which social security was operated for so long in this country isvery much like the Madof scandal, robbing Peter to pay Paul. As the baby boomers came into the work force in the 70s, it was politicallyopportunistic to give large increases to a relativelysmall number of retirees to get votes. These guys knew theyd be dead or at least retired before the chickens came home to roost. In the fall of 2005, I heard then Tennessee state senator Steve Cohen, now US representative, make a statement at a drug reform meeting that politicians tend to be short term opportunists.

      Tom

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: eupraxis@...

      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:04 AM

      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview CORRECTION



      You argument doesn't really make sense to me. Their are corrupt officials, therefore ... what? Do away with government programs to help the poor, to guarantee social security for those who retire or are incapacitated, etc.? Huh?



      Wil



      -----Original Message-----

      From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>

      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:51 am

      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview CORRECTION



      To me, the most significant part of this discussion is not so much the goodness or badness of Ron Paul, as it is the question as to whither it's really prudent to have so much money and so much power in the hands of people, who have been shown to be very prone to corruption Some references were made in the New Republic article about Ron Paul's distrust of much of the banking system. Recent developements tend to give credence to it.



      I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing ... Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802)



      Tom



      ----- Original Message -----



      From: eupraxis@...



      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com



      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 9:55 AM



      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview CORRECTION



      -----Original Message-----



      From: eupraxis@...



      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com



      Sent: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 9:54 am



      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview



      That should have read, "Like I said, I am NOT here to convince you."



      Tom,



      Well you can certainly cut and paste with the best of them! Like I said, I am here to convince you. If you are not on the left, fine. Its your conscience.



      Wil



      -----Original Message-----



      From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>



      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com



      Sent: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 9:44 am



      Subject: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview



      Distrust of government is not a position, it is a mood. Wil



      Distrust of government is awareness of reality. Aside from ideological leanings, do u really like having power in the hands of people like this? And crooked politicians are like insects in your house, for every one you see there are hundreds you dont see. There is also the factor that there are so many ways for politicians to be paid off, that are not illegal per se, like the fact that over half congressmen now become lobbyists after their tenure. Many spouses of congressmen are also lobbyist. I'd trust a crack whore walking the street as much as these people.



      Tom



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      Category:Members of Congress under investigation



      From SourceWatch



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      Editor's note: This article is an index of current and recent members of Congress currently under investigation by the congressional ethics committees, or under investigation, indictment, or conviction by law enforcement authorities, based on credible media reports. In cases where it is contested whether or not the member is being investigated, it is noted in that member's profile. All information here is taken from the members' personal profile pages. If you wish to edit or contribute to this article, please make sure to first add the information to those profiles (with a source).



      Contents



      [hide]



      a.. 1 Senators



      a.. 1.1 Sen. Bob Menendez (D-New Jersey)



      b.. 1.2 Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska)



      c.. 1.3 Note



      b.. 2 Representatives



      a.. 2.1 Rep. Charles Rangel (D-New York)



      b.. 2.2 Rep. John Doolittle (R-California) - Retiring



      c.. 2.3 Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Florida)



      d.. 2.4 Rep. Bob Filner (D-California)



      e.. 2.5 Rep. Jane Harman (D-California)



      f.. 2.6 Rep. William Jefferson (D-Louisiana) - Indicted



      g.. 2.7 Rep. Jerry Lewis (R-California)



      h.. 2.8 Rep. Gary Miller (R-California)



      i.. 2.9 Rep. Alan Mollohan (D-West Virginia)



      j.. 2.10 Rep. Tim Murphy (R-Pennsylvania)



      k.. 2.11 Rep. Rick Renzi (R-Arizona) - Indicted and Retiring



      l.. 2.12 Rep. Don Young (R-Alaska)



      c.. 3 Former members of Congress



      a.. 3.1 Former Rep. Bob Beauprez (R-Colorado)



      b.. 3.2 Former Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham (R-California) - Convicted



      c.. 3.3 Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) - Indicted



      d.. 3.4 Former Rep. Mark Foley (R-Florida)



      e.. 3.5 Former Rep. Jim Gibbons (R-Nevada)



      f.. 3.6 Former Rep. Katherine Harris (R-Florida)



      g.. 3.7 Former Rep. Dennis Hastert (R-Illinois)



      h.. 3.8 Former Rep. Bob Ney (R-Ohio) - Convicted



      i.. 3.9 Former Rep. Curt Weldon (R-Pennsylvania)



      d.. 4 Former investigations regarding members of Congress



      a.. 4.1 Sen. Pete Domenici (R-New Mexico) - Retiring



      e.. 5 Past investigations into members of Congress



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    • eupraxis@aol.com
      CSW, Your centrism has always struck me as way anti-left. Some center! Based on a kind of an oblique circle, I guess, like a large ellipse. Anyway, yes, I am
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 2, 2009
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        CSW,

        Your "centrism" has always struck me as way anti-left. Some center! Based on a kind of an oblique circle, I guess, like a large ellipse. Anyway, yes, I am aware of your position. It is one that I disagree with, in the main. And it is one that I interpret as egoistic and self-interested, as you have confirmed, but oddly apologetic and uncomfortable in its own skin.

        I guess you would also be for ending the billions we give to Israel?

        Wil




        -----Original Message-----
        From: C. S. Wyatt <existlist1@...>
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 4:32 pm
        Subject: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview

























        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

        > convince you. If you are not on the left, fine. Its your conscience.



        My problem with this is that "left/right" become black and white moral positions. Those of

        us who consider things more "centrist" recognize some ideas from each are needed and

        that both sides keep the other in check -- when things actually function.



        I admit, my conscience is based on what *I* do. Giving money to any group, even a charity,

        and hoping it does good deeds is not enough. Likewise, blindly paying taxes and hoping

        for the best is not acceptable. Every organization must be monitored and challenged.



        As we watch the free press decline, with newspapers and magazines failing, I'm not sure

        who will be around in 20 years to challenge authority. Creative writers used to turn to

        fiction, plays, and even poetry to expose social issues. But, bookstores are closing and the

        number one search on Google today is Jennifer Anniston.



        Who will the watchdogs be? Will anyone pay attention?



        The idea that I have a moral obligation to pay taxes is fine -- if those taxes actually do

        something. But, I'm in a state busy with three sports stadiums, subsidizing billionaire

        team owners and millionaire athletes. We're spending public money on mall expansions,

        with nearly $1B in aid proposed for the Mall of America. Our schools are crumbling,

        bridges falling, our water is literally brown, but we have $2.5 billion for entertainment and

        shopping venues? Right... I'm supposed to trust these idiots?



        Oh, and our legislature that is spending so wisely is overwhelmingly "DFL" (Democrat-

        Farm-Labor). Only the governor is a Republican. Every other state official claims to be a

        "progressive." I guess we are progressing to a retail only economy. Yippee.



        No, I don't trust government -- because I have a conscience. I cannot condone subsidies

        for the already-rich. I cannot condone giving public resources to entertainment venues.

        Eminent domain for high-rent condos on the river? Absurd.



        If you are skeptical of human nature, corporations, and most other human endeavors, you

        should be skeptical of government. Government is a business, but one with armed

        enforcers. Government can and does threaten people in ways private citizens cannot.



        I have no idea how to make government more "trustworthy" and more responsive to what I

        consider real needs and priorities. I vote for people who promise change... and change

        seldom happens.



        Maybe the next four years will be better. But, I wouldn't give government power just in

        case the next administration is incompetent. Our system's turnover means the changes we

        make for a "good" administration can come back to haunt us under a horrible

        administration.



        To claim trusting government signifies moral superiority is just not sufficient. You have to

        also want major, major reforms. These reforms are unlikely, of course. Not unless you find

        a way to change our entire electoral system and numerous Supreme Court rulings.



        Trust in government? Heck, I don't trust anything that large and powerful.






















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • C. S. Wyatt
        ... I am against most foreign aid that goes beyond medical, educational, and agricultural aid. I think selling weapons, be it F16s to Saudi Arabia or tanks to
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 2, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
          > I guess you would also be for ending the billions we give to Israel?

          I am against most foreign aid that goes beyond medical, educational, and agricultural aid.
          I think selling weapons, be it F16s to Saudi Arabia or tanks to India, makes the world a
          much worse place. While Israel has a right to defend itself, they are not entitled to any U.S.
          financial aid to buy weapons.

          And you seem to have quite the penchant for name calling and insulting people. It does
          not persuade anyone, certainly -- even when you are right you are abrasive and arrogant.
          I doubt you are so in person, so why be so online?

          I am quite comfortable with my views. Never trust people in power. It's a simply guideline,
          but one I find is constantly supported by experience.

          What I don't understand is how so many people unhappy and critical of the current U.S.
          system can bear to remain if it is so foul. Canada isn't far away, and many European
          nations would welcome educated immigrants.

          Personally, I don't think any system is great, any system is worthy of trust. I know I'd be
          just as critical of people in power in any nation/state. People who want power, by
          definition must want the power for some reason. The few "good" (honest, true to ideals)
          politicians struggle against the currents.

          I do want to be left alone... that seems pretty reasonable to me and many others. It's a
          simple, normal desire to have "ownership" over myself.

          For those willing to let committees and centralized authorities decide what individuals
          must be compelled to do, that's also a choice. You're always free to be part of a collective
          somewhere. The problem is that even collectives end up with leaders, and those leaders
          start to love power.

          (Now, if I thought better of humanity, I'd probably lean towards anarchy, but that's an
          absurd ideal in modern society. Anarchy would be a disaster due to -- of course --
          human nature.)

          Back to rest and the nonsense that is life.
        • eupraxis@aol.com
          CSW: And you seem to have quite the penchant for name calling and insulting people. It does not persuade anyone, certainly -- even when you are right you are
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 2, 2009
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            CSW: "And you seem to have quite the penchant for name calling and insulting people. It does


            not persuade anyone, certainly -- even when you are right you are abrasive and arrogant.


            I doubt you are so in person, so why be so online?"




            I can be very abrasive at times, but I didn't think my last post was particularly so: I will parse my post line by line with commentary...



            1) "Your "centrism" has always struck me as way anti-left." -- I mean, center compared to what? Maybe I do understand what passes as center. That is possible, since I laugh whenever I hear about the left-wing press.



            2) "Some center!
            Based on a kind of an oblique circle, I guess, like a large ellipse."
            -- Okay, a tad dismissive, but hardly insulting. My point, though, is that if the gradation is already skewed way past what I take as 'center', how can I take seriously any claims of centrism?



            3) "Anyway, yes, I am aware of your position. It is one that I disagree
            with, in the main." -- Well, true enough, no?



            4) "And it is one that I interpret as egoistic and
            self-interested, as you have confirmed, but oddly apologetic and
            uncomfortable in its own skin." -- You had just championed your position as self-interested, had you not? You had just written, "I admit, my conscience is based on what *I* do." But you often append your positions with anecdotes that show your support for issues that one might consider to be liberal. That is what I was pointing to, at any rate. I meant no insult, but I was nevertheless registering my discomfort with those gestures.

            Perhaps I we are also channeling past arguments, interpreting present comments in light of old wounds. I have not really gotten over the Katrina comments, maybe. Maybe you have a few soar points as well.

            Wil














            -----Original Message-----

            From: C. S. Wyatt <existlist1@...>

            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

            Sent: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 5:15 pm

            Subject: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview
































            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:


            > I guess you would also be for ending the billions we give to Israel?





            I am against most foreign aid that goes beyond medical, educational, and agricultural aid.


            I think selling weapons, be it F16s to Saudi Arabia or tanks to India, makes the world a


            much worse place. While Israel has a right to defend itself, they are not entitled to any U.S.


            financial aid to buy weapons.





            And you seem to have quite the penchant for name calling and insulting people. It does


            not persuade anyone, certainly -- even when you are right you are abrasive and arrogant.


            I doubt you are so in person, so why be so online?





            I am quite comfortable with my views. Never trust people in power. It's a simply guideline,


            but one I find is constantly supported by experience.





            What I don't understand is how so many people unhappy and critical of the current U.S.


            system can bear to remain if it is so foul. Canada isn't far away, and many European


            nations would welcome educated immigrants.





            Personally, I don't think any system is great, any system is worthy of trust. I know I'd be


            just as critical of people in power in any nation/state. People who want power, by


            definition must want the power for some reason. The few "good" (honest, true to ideals)


            politicians struggle against the currents.





            I do want to be left alone... that seems pretty reasonable to me and many others. It's a


            simple, normal desire to have "ownership" over myself.





            For those willing to let committees and centralized authorities decide what individuals


            must be compelled to do, that's also a choice. You're always free to be part of a collective


            somewhere. The problem is that even collectives end up with leaders, and those leaders


            start to love power.





            (Now, if I thought better of humanity, I'd probably lean towards anarchy, but that's an


            absurd ideal in modern society. Anarchy would be a disaster due to -- of course --


            human nature.)





            Back to rest and the nonsense that is life.



























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • tom
            Dear C.S., I agree very much with you.Government does have such strong tendencies to perpetuate corruption and inefficiency, and it s so difficult to change,
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 2, 2009
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              Dear C.S.,

              I agree very much with you.Government does have such strong tendencies to perpetuate corruption and inefficiency, and it's so difficult to change, because the very ones profiting from the schemes are the people whose cooperation would have to be obtained to bring about reform.I certainly agree with you that both sides need to be kept in some type of balance. And until the leaders of the executive, legislative, and judicial branches achieve a higher ethical standard than streetwalking crack whores, the most beautiful theories will remain rhetoric and never be translated into reality. At the present time, the northern European countries from most accounts seem to have honest enough leaders, so that larger government structures can be feasible. The greatest ideas without honest people to impliment them are like a great song being played by a tone deaf garage band.
              Tom
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: C. S. Wyatt
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 5:15 PM
              Subject: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview


              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
              > I guess you would also be for ending the billions we give to Israel?

              I am against most foreign aid that goes beyond medical, educational, and agricultural aid.
              I think selling weapons, be it F16s to Saudi Arabia or tanks to India, makes the world a
              much worse place. While Israel has a right to defend itself, they are not entitled to any U.S.
              financial aid to buy weapons.

              And you seem to have quite the penchant for name calling and insulting people. It does
              not persuade anyone, certainly -- even when you are right you are abrasive and arrogant.
              I doubt you are so in person, so why be so online?

              I am quite comfortable with my views. Never trust people in power. It's a simply guideline,
              but one I find is constantly supported by experience.

              What I don't understand is how so many people unhappy and critical of the current U.S.
              system can bear to remain if it is so foul. Canada isn't far away, and many European
              nations would welcome educated immigrants.

              Personally, I don't think any system is great, any system is worthy of trust. I know I'd be
              just as critical of people in power in any nation/state. People who want power, by
              definition must want the power for some reason. The few "good" (honest, true to ideals)
              politicians struggle against the currents.

              I do want to be left alone... that seems pretty reasonable to me and many others. It's a
              simple, normal desire to have "ownership" over myself.

              For those willing to let committees and centralized authorities decide what individuals
              must be compelled to do, that's also a choice. You're always free to be part of a collective
              somewhere. The problem is that even collectives end up with leaders, and those leaders
              start to love power.

              (Now, if I thought better of humanity, I'd probably lean towards anarchy, but that's an
              absurd ideal in modern society. Anarchy would be a disaster due to -- of course --
              human nature.)

              Back to rest and the nonsense that is life.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • C. S. Wyatt
              ... light of old wounds. I have not really gotten over the Katrina comments, maybe. Maybe you have a few soar points as well. No idea what you mean by Katrina
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 2, 2009
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                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                > Perhaps I we are also channeling past arguments, interpreting present comments in
                light of old wounds. I have not really gotten over the Katrina comments, maybe. Maybe
                you have a few soar points as well.

                No idea what you mean by "Katrina comments." I think I'm not alone in suggesting FEMA
                was a complete, total, horrendous disaster during various emergencies. I can't think of
                much the central government did right -- but I give a lot of credit to some brave Coast
                Guard, National Guard, and volunteer rescuers.

                If anything, private individuals and organizations did much, much more for the Gulf Coast
                than the feds did.

                And the anecdotes are because you imply not trusting government = not having a heart.
                Meant or not, it comes across that anyone not agreeing with your view of "left" must be
                mean-spirited and cruel. That's just a really horrible thing to imply about not merely me,
                but so many people I know from across the political and social spectrum.

                I still don't understand how anyone in the U.S. can trust this government. As I have said, if
                I were raised in a social-democratic nation, with a stable civil service... maybe a different
                view. Our central system? No way I'm trusting it with anything important. The list of even
                recent failures is too long, too disgusting to ponder.

                You also don't have a general view of the United States "Center." Your view of "center" is
                not based on the American electorate, of which I am in the middle. I don't consider myself
                "center" in any international sense. I'd put the U.S. "Democrats" (whatever that party
                means) in the European center... and center-left here.

                Being "center" in the U.S. is "to the right" when compared to elsewhere. I don't live
                elsewhere. However, I am not a nationalistic, social conservative with religious beliefs --
                which is how I view the "far right" in America.
              • mary.josie59
                You know? If I read only this posting from the recent discussion, I d say it makes sense. Political debate is too much about grudges and assumptions and
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
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                  You know? If I read only this posting from the recent discussion, I'd say it makes sense.
                  Political debate is too much about grudges and assumptions and ideology. Existentialism
                  culminates with the absurd. The individual fights for what he needs within the tribe or
                  civilized society. Philosophy tries to make it more palatable. Mary

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "C. S. Wyatt" <existlist1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                  > > convince you. If you are not on the left, fine. Its your conscience.
                  >
                  > My problem with this is that "left/right" become black and white moral positions. Those
                  of
                  > us who consider things more "centrist" recognize some ideas from each are needed and
                  > that both sides keep the other in check -- when things actually function.
                  >
                  > I admit, my conscience is based on what *I* do. Giving money to any group, even a
                  charity,
                  > and hoping it does good deeds is not enough. Likewise, blindly paying taxes and hoping
                  > for the best is not acceptable. Every organization must be monitored and challenged.
                  >
                  > As we watch the free press decline, with newspapers and magazines failing, I'm not sure
                  > who will be around in 20 years to challenge authority. Creative writers used to turn to
                  > fiction, plays, and even poetry to expose social issues. But, bookstores are closing and
                  the
                  > number one search on Google today is Jennifer Anniston.
                  >
                  > Who will the watchdogs be? Will anyone pay attention?
                  >
                  > The idea that I have a moral obligation to pay taxes is fine -- if those taxes actually do
                  > something. But, I'm in a state busy with three sports stadiums, subsidizing billionaire
                  > team owners and millionaire athletes. We're spending public money on mall expansions,
                  > with nearly $1B in aid proposed for the Mall of America. Our schools are crumbling,
                  > bridges falling, our water is literally brown, but we have $2.5 billion for entertainment
                  and
                  > shopping venues? Right... I'm supposed to trust these idiots?
                  >
                  > Oh, and our legislature that is spending so wisely is overwhelmingly "DFL" (Democrat-
                  > Farm-Labor). Only the governor is a Republican. Every other state official claims to be a
                  > "progressive." I guess we are progressing to a retail only economy. Yippee.
                  >
                  > No, I don't trust government -- because I have a conscience. I cannot condone
                  subsidies
                  > for the already-rich. I cannot condone giving public resources to entertainment venues.
                  > Eminent domain for high-rent condos on the river? Absurd.
                  >
                  > If you are skeptical of human nature, corporations, and most other human endeavors,
                  you
                  > should be skeptical of government. Government is a business, but one with armed
                  > enforcers. Government can and does threaten people in ways private citizens cannot.
                  >
                  > I have no idea how to make government more "trustworthy" and more responsive to
                  what I
                  > consider real needs and priorities. I vote for people who promise change... and change
                  > seldom happens.
                  >
                  > Maybe the next four years will be better. But, I wouldn't give government power just in
                  > case the next administration is incompetent. Our system's turnover means the changes
                  we
                  > make for a "good" administration can come back to haunt us under a horrible
                  > administration.
                  >
                  > To claim trusting government signifies moral superiority is just not sufficient. You have
                  to
                  > also want major, major reforms. These reforms are unlikely, of course. Not unless you
                  find
                  > a way to change our entire electoral system and numerous Supreme Court rulings.
                  >
                  > Trust in government? Heck, I don't trust anything that large and powerful.
                  >
                • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                  The individual fights for what he needs within the tribe or ... not the only polar options, nor does tribe have to be used as in polar opposition to
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
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                    The individual fights for what he needs within the tribe or
                    > civilized society. Mary

                    not the only polar options, nor does "tribe" have to be used as in polar
                    opposition to "civilized society."

                    sorry to pick your post, since others generalized similarly earlier...

                    the smaller and more sustainable social forms of organization in which
                    humans lived for most of their existence (clans, hamlets, villages,
                    tribes in the sense of kinship) can not be lumped into one type. rather,
                    as in nature, they would be more diverse (adapting to circumstances)than
                    the higher and more normalized forms of social organization.

                    tribal warfare, military specialization, strong forms of patriarchy, and
                    a worldview where violence predominates and men rule over women is
                    particularly characteristic of specialized pastoralists of the metal
                    (esp. Iron) ages, such as metal-period Indo-Europeans (in the sense of
                    language), rather than that of sustainable social organizations where
                    populations stabilize with resource availability and the cost of clash
                    is greater than the benefits of exchange or simply passing each other by.

                    raids and piracy and war aside, in normal times violence against one's
                    neighbor (not necessarily kin), has been more likely in the civilized
                    city where people may not form neighborhoods to look out for each other
                    and many are left isolated on their own, than in the country where
                    neighbors, nosy as they might be, have been expected to help neighbors
                    (not necessarily kin).

                    aija
                  • mary.josie59
                    aija, I agree, but got weary of using enclosed quotes to convey such. The need for a conjunction (or/and) betrays my own social conditioning. Since you haven t
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
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                      aija,

                      I agree, but got weary of using enclosed quotes to convey such. The need for a conjunction
                      (or/and) betrays my own social conditioning. Since you haven't much time to read our
                      proliferation of postings, I'm hereby assuring you my recent interest in "primitive" self-
                      sustaining cultures is well...interesting. Of course for these people, it's merely their life :)

                      Mary

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@...> wrote:

                      not the only polar options, nor does "tribe" have to be used as in polar
                      opposition to "civilized society."
                    • tom
                      aija, I agree with you. raids and piracy and war aside, in normal times violence against one s neighbor (not necessarily kin), has been more likely in the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
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                        aija,
                        I agree with you.
                        raids and piracy and war aside, in normal times violence against one's
                        neighbor (not necessarily kin), has been more likely in the civilized
                        city where people may not form neighborhoods to look out for each other
                        and many are left isolated on their own, than in the country where
                        neighbors, nosy as they might be, have been expected to help neighbors
                        (not necessarily kin).

                        aija

                        I have a friend who moved up to Vermont from here in Memphis sometime around the late 80s when he got married. He came back here after he got divorced 7 or 8 years ago for a year or two, then went back. He said that when anyone has disasters of various kinds, neighbors will come and without charge help rebuild. I've heard the idea that once a social group expands beyond the point where everybody knows everyone, something is dramatically changed for the worse. I suspect that the lumping together of huge numbers of people into the nation state has primarily military value. Once the nation state and the acompanying military industrial complex emerged, tribes either voluntarily allied themselves with nation states, or else were killed, occupied, or enslaved by nation states. I guess the question is to what extent it might be possible for the world to ever move away from predatory patterns, once they are established.
                        Tom

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Aija Veldre Beldavs
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:16 AM
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview


                        The individual fights for what he needs within the tribe or
                        > civilized society. Mary

                        not the only polar options, nor does "tribe" have to be used as in polar
                        opposition to "civilized society."

                        sorry to pick your post, since others generalized similarly earlier...

                        the smaller and more sustainable social forms of organization in which
                        humans lived for most of their existence (clans, hamlets, villages,
                        tribes in the sense of kinship) can not be lumped into one type. rather,
                        as in nature, they would be more diverse (adapting to circumstances)than
                        the higher and more normalized forms of social organization.

                        tribal warfare, military specialization, strong forms of patriarchy, and
                        a worldview where violence predominates and men rule over women is
                        particularly characteristic of specialized pastoralists of the metal
                        (esp. Iron) ages, such as metal-period Indo-Europeans (in the sense of
                        language), rather than that of sustainable social organizations where
                        populations stabilize with resource availability and the cost of clash
                        is greater than the benefits of exchange or simply passing each other by.

                        raids and piracy and war aside, in normal times violence against one's
                        neighbor (not necessarily kin), has been more likely in the civilized
                        city where people may not form neighborhoods to look out for each other
                        and many are left isolated on their own, than in the country where
                        neighbors, nosy as they might be, have been expected to help neighbors
                        (not necessarily kin).

                        aija




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                        I suspect that the lumping together of huge numbers of people into the nation state has primarily military value. Once the nation state and the acompanying
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
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                          I suspect that the lumping together of huge numbers of people into the
                          nation state has primarily military value. Once the nation state and the
                          acompanying military industrial complex emerged, tribes either
                          voluntarily allied themselves with nation states, or else were killed,
                          occupied, or enslaved by nation states.

                          all states are not imperialist or expansionist, nor do they equally
                          oppress certain segments of their population.

                          Norway today, in contrast to earlier policies of trying to assimilate
                          the indigenous Sami, now has policies that acknowledge the right of
                          indigenous peoples to exist, which in practice include those attending
                          school in Sami-land must learn Sami, even if they are not Sami. Finland
                          and the Baltic states emerged not for "primarily military value," but to
                          escape Empire, colonialism, and social, educational, cultural, and
                          economic discrimination against the indigenous peoples that had clung to
                          their languages and cultures against the odds. the people of these
                          countries felt their languages, music, oral and material culture were
                          worth keeping, rather than being replaced by a few dominant world
                          cultural hegemonies. that is not necessarily to be insular or
                          provincial, as the ordinary peoples of small countries tend to know more
                          languages out of necessity than those in world-dominant large countries.

                          but Empires do suppress their conquered peoples and others who are not
                          voluntary members. and corporations based on maximizing their profits
                          no matter the cost to humanity as a whole have a lot to do with
                          predatory patterns indifferent to the suffering they cause at large.

                          aija
                        • mary.josie59
                          Don t know that I agree with forcing languages upon others, though I might understand the intent. Here in the US we have difficulties with assimilation,
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
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                            Don't know that I agree with forcing languages upon others, though I might understand
                            the intent. Here in the US we have difficulties with assimilation, Spanish speaking vs.
                            English only, etc. There is also the problem of when well meaning nations try to build
                            schools in say Afghanistan, but the NGO's are more successful because grassroots
                            construction is more sensitive to gender disparity issues and funding doesn't disappear as
                            easily.

                            Mary

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@...> wrote:

                            Norway today, in contrast to earlier policies of trying to assimilate
                            the indigenous Sami, now has policies that acknowledge the right of
                            indigenous peoples to exist, which in practice include those attending
                            school in Sami-land must learn Sami, even if they are not Sami. Finland
                            and the Baltic states emerged not for "primarily military value," but to
                            escape Empire, colonialism, and social, educational, cultural, and
                            economic discrimination against the indigenous peoples that had clung to
                            their languages and cultures against the odds. the people of these
                            countries felt their languages, music, oral and material culture were
                            worth keeping, rather than being replaced by a few dominant world
                            cultural hegemonies. that is not necessarily to be insular or
                            provincial, as the ordinary peoples of small countries tend to know more
                            languages out of necessity than those in world-dominant large countries.
                          • tom
                            aija My point was not that all states are imperialist or expansionist, but rather that historically smaller states that were not imperialist were often forced
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
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                              aija

                              My point was not that all states are imperialist or expansionist, but rather that historically smaller states that were not imperialist were often forced to choose between aligning themselves with larger groups or being overran by ones that were. I certainly respect the fact that the Swiss have not been involved in a war in many years. It seems apparent to me that if Switzerland, a small country in the midst of Europe, which was the center of 2 world wars can avoid war, the US certainly could if they desired. I dont think the US has been involved in a war since the War of 1812, that they couldn't have avoided.

                              As for the different relations between people in small and big towns, my dad worked with a young guy in the 30s from a small town. He told my dad it was hard for him to get used to walking downtown by people without saying hi. In a small town,everybody knew one another, and if u saw someone u didnt know, it was customary to say in affect "Hi, I guess u r new here, I'm ----".
                              Tom
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Aija Veldre Beldavs
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:37 AM
                              Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview



                              I suspect that the lumping together of huge numbers of people into the
                              nation state has primarily military value. Once the nation state and the
                              acompanying military industrial complex emerged, tribes either
                              voluntarily allied themselves with nation states, or else were killed,
                              occupied, or enslaved by nation states.

                              all states are not imperialist or expansionist, nor do they equally
                              oppress certain segments of their population.

                              Norway today, in contrast to earlier policies of trying to assimilate
                              the indigenous Sami, now has policies that acknowledge the right of
                              indigenous peoples to exist, which in practice include those attending
                              school in Sami-land must learn Sami, even if they are not Sami. Finland
                              and the Baltic states emerged not for "primarily military value," but to
                              escape Empire, colonialism, and social, educational, cultural, and
                              economic discrimination against the indigenous peoples that had clung to
                              their languages and cultures against the odds. the people of these
                              countries felt their languages, music, oral and material culture were
                              worth keeping, rather than being replaced by a few dominant world
                              cultural hegemonies. that is not necessarily to be insular or
                              provincial, as the ordinary peoples of small countries tend to know more
                              languages out of necessity than those in world-dominant large countries.

                              but Empires do suppress their conquered peoples and others who are not
                              voluntary members. and corporations based on maximizing their profits
                              no matter the cost to humanity as a whole have a lot to do with
                              predatory patterns indifferent to the suffering they cause at large.

                              aija





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • mary.josie59
                              Someone can correct me if I m wrong, but I think this has been shown to be fallacious. The Swiss were bankers for the Nazis and just about anyone who launders
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
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                                Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this has been shown to be fallacious. The
                                Swiss were bankers for the Nazis and just about anyone who launders money. What is war
                                about if not money?

                                Mary

                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                                It seems apparent to me that if Switzerland, a smallcountry in the midst of Europe, which was
                                the center of 2 world wars can avoidwar, the US certainly could if they desired.
                              • tom
                                aija From everything Ive read the northern European countries have by far the most honest politicians of any place on earth. I know politiciand here in America
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
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                                  aija
                                  From everything Ive read the northern European countries have by far the most honest politicians of any place on earth. I know politiciand here in America are bought and paid for. I guess the ones ranked much lower must be places where u have to bribe officials to get a drivers licence or get your garbage picked up.
                                  Tom


                                  Country
                                  rank Country 2007
                                  CPI Score
                                  1. Finland 9.4
                                  Denmark 9.4
                                  New Zealand 9.4
                                  4. Sweden 9.3
                                  Singapore 9.3
                                  6. Iceland 9.2
                                  7. Switzerland 9.0
                                  Netherlands 9.0
                                  9. Canada 8.7
                                  Norway 8.7
                                  11. Australia 8.6
                                  12. Luxembourg 8.4
                                  United Kingdom 8.4
                                  14. Hong Kong 8.3
                                  15. Austria 8.1
                                  16. Germany 7.8
                                  17. Japan 7.5
                                  Ireland 7.5
                                  19. France 7.3
                                  20. USA 7.2
                                  21. Belgium 7.1
                                  22. Chile 7.0
                                  23. Barbados 6.9
                                  24. St. Lucia 6.8
                                  25. Spain 6.7
                                  Uruguay 6.7
                                  27. Slovenia 6.6
                                  28. Portugal 6.5
                                  Estonia 6.5
                                  30. Israel 6.1
                                  St. Vincent and the Grenadines 6.1
                                  32. Qatar 6.0
                                  33. Malta 5.8
                                  34. Macao 5.7
                                  Taiwan 5.7
                                  United Arab Emirates 5.7
                                  37. Dominica 5.6
                                  38. Botswana 5.4
                                  39. Cyprus 5.3
                                  Hungary 5.3
                                  41. Czech Republic 5.2
                                  Italy 5.2
                                  43. South Korea 5.1
                                  Malaysia 5.1
                                  South Africa 5.1
                                  46. Bahrain 5.0
                                  Bhutan 5.0
                                  Costa Rica 5.0
                                  49. Cape Verde 4.9
                                  Slovakia 4.9
                                  51. Latvia 4.8
                                  Lithuania 4.8
                                  53. Jordan 4.7
                                  Mauritius 4.7
                                  Oman 4.7
                                  56. Greece 4.6
                                  57. Namibia 4.5
                                  Samoa 4.5
                                  Seychelles 4.5
                                  60. Kuwait 4.3
                                  61. Cuba 4.2
                                  Poland 4.2
                                  Tunisia 4.2
                                  64. Bulgaria 4.1
                                  Croatia 4.1
                                  Turkey 4.1
                                  67. El Salvador 4.0
                                  68. Colombia 3.8
                                  69. Ghana 3.7
                                  Romania 3.7
                                  71. Senegal 3.6
                                  72. Brazil 3.5
                                  China 3.5
                                  India 3.5
                                  Mexico 3.5
                                  Peru 3.5
                                  Morocco 3.5
                                  Suriname 3.5
                                  79. Georgia 3.4
                                  Grenada 3.4
                                  Saudi Arabia 3.4
                                  Serbia 3.4
                                  Trinidad and Tobago 3.4
                                  84. Bosnia and Herzgegovina 3.3
                                  Gabon 3.3
                                  Jamaica 3.3
                                  Lesotho 3.3
                                  Kiribati 3.3
                                  FYR Macedonia 3.3
                                  Maldives 3.3
                                  Montenegro 3.3
                                  Swaziland 3.3
                                  Thailand 3.3
                                  94. Madagascar 3.2
                                  Panama 3.2
                                  Sri Lanka 3.2
                                  Tanzania 3.2
                                  98. Vanuatu 3.1
                                  99. Algeria 3.0
                                  Armenia 3.0
                                  Belize 3.0
                                  Dominican Republic 3.0
                                  Lebanon 3.0
                                  Mongolia 3.0
                                  105. Bolivia 2.9
                                  Albania Iran 2.9
                                  Argentina Libya 2.9
                                  Burkina Faso 2.9
                                  Djibouti 2.9
                                  Egypt 2.9
                                  111. Eritrea 2.8
                                  Guatemala 2.8
                                  Moldova 2.8
                                  Mozambique 2.8
                                  Rwanda 2.8
                                  Solomon Islands 2.8
                                  Uganda 2.8
                                  118. Benin 2.7
                                  Malawi 2.7
                                  Mali Zambia 2.7
                                  Sao Tome and Principe 2.7
                                  Ukraine 2.7
                                  123. Comoros 2.6
                                  Guyana 2.6
                                  Mauritania 2.6
                                  Nicaragua 2.6
                                  Niger 2.6
                                  Timor-Leste 2.6
                                  Viet Nam 2.6
                                  Zambia 2.6
                                  131. Burundi 2.5
                                  Honduras 2.5
                                  Iran 2.5
                                  Libya 2.5
                                  Nepal 2.5
                                  Phillipines 2.5
                                  Yemen 2.5
                                  138. Cameroon 2.4
                                  Ethiophia 2.4
                                  Pakistan 2.4
                                  Paraguay 2.4
                                  Syria 2.4
                                  143. Gambia 2.3
                                  Indonesia 2.3
                                  Russia 2.3
                                  Togo Nigeria 2.3
                                  147. Angola 2.2
                                  Guinea-Bissau 2.2
                                  Nigeria 2.2
                                  150. Azerbaijan 2.1
                                  Belarus 2.1
                                  Congo, Republic 2.1
                                  Côte d´Ivoire 2.1
                                  Ecuador 2.1
                                  Kazakhstan Uzbekistan 2.1
                                  Kenya Bangladesh 2.1
                                  Kyrgyzstan 2.1
                                  Liberia 2.1
                                  Sierra Leone 2.1
                                  Tajikistan 2.1
                                  Zimbabwe Iraq 2.1
                                  162. Bangladesh 2.0
                                  Cambodia 2.0
                                  Central African Republic 2.0
                                  Papua New Guinea 2.0
                                  Turkmenistan 2.0
                                  Venezuela 2.0
                                  168. Congo, Democratic Republic of 1.9
                                  Equatorial Guinea 1.9
                                  Guinea 1.9
                                  Laos 1.9
                                  172. Afghanistan 1.8
                                  Chad 1.8
                                  Sudan 1.8
                                  175. Tonga 1.7
                                  Uzbekistan 1.7
                                  177. Haiti 1.6
                                  178. Iraq 1.5
                                  179. Myanmar 2.0
                                  Somalia 2.0

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Aija Veldre Beldavs
                                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:37 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview



                                  I suspect that the lumping together of huge numbers of people into the
                                  nation state has primarily military value. Once the nation state and the
                                  acompanying military industrial complex emerged, tribes either
                                  voluntarily allied themselves with nation states, or else were killed,
                                  occupied, or enslaved by nation states.

                                  all states are not imperialist or expansionist, nor do they equally
                                  oppress certain segments of their population.

                                  Norway today, in contrast to earlier policies of trying to assimilate
                                  the indigenous Sami, now has policies that acknowledge the right of
                                  indigenous peoples to exist, which in practice include those attending
                                  school in Sami-land must learn Sami, even if they are not Sami. Finland
                                  and the Baltic states emerged not for "primarily military value," but to
                                  escape Empire, colonialism, and social, educational, cultural, and
                                  economic discrimination against the indigenous peoples that had clung to
                                  their languages and cultures against the odds. the people of these
                                  countries felt their languages, music, oral and material culture were
                                  worth keeping, rather than being replaced by a few dominant world
                                  cultural hegemonies. that is not necessarily to be insular or
                                  provincial, as the ordinary peoples of small countries tend to know more
                                  languages out of necessity than those in world-dominant large countries.

                                  but Empires do suppress their conquered peoples and others who are not
                                  voluntary members. and corporations based on maximizing their profits
                                  no matter the cost to humanity as a whole have a lot to do with
                                  predatory patterns indifferent to the suffering they cause at large.

                                  aija





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • tom
                                  Mary, The Swiss have ironically followed the words of Thomas Jefferson, the writer of the US constitution, much better than the US. Peace, commerce and honest
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 3, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Mary,

                                    The Swiss have ironically followed the words of Thomas Jefferson, the writer of the US constitution, much better than the US.
                                    Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations--entangling alliances with none,
                                    I think the Swiss have been bankers for all sides, and also provided a neutral meeting ground for treaties etc., The US spends hundreds of billions on the military. It might be wise to spend a billion or so getting help from Swiss in staying out of wars.
                                    Tom
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: mary.josie59
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:05 PM
                                    Subject: [existlist] Re:[exist]Re:What is the left?A short overview


                                    Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this has been shown to be fallacious. The
                                    Swiss were bankers for the Nazis and just about anyone who launders money. What is war
                                    about if not money?

                                    Mary

                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                                    It seems apparent to me that if Switzerland, a smallcountry in the midst of Europe, which was
                                    the center of 2 world wars can avoidwar, the US certainly could if they desired.





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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