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Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

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  • bartleyoreg@aol.com
    Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting anywhere close?
      Michael


      -----Original Message-----
      From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm
      Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief






      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
      >
      > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
      have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
      point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
      other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?
      Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
      would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
      present world that race is not that important.
      > Michael

      Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
      spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
      seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such
      an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
      members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the
      road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
      world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a
      few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
      all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society
      if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could
      flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of
      the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
      embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
      police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts
      of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
      soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
      > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I
      am
      > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
      > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
      Jewish
      > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
      > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
      > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
      It
      > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
      > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
      good
      > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
      > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
      > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
      European
      > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
      > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
      > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
      > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
      > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
      >
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
      > >
      > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
      > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
      issue
      > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
      black,
      > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
      issue
      > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
      very
      > strange statement.
      > > Michael
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
      > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
      > concept,
      > > frequently used as a political weapon.
      > >
      > > Louise
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • bhvwd
      ... person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person from another race. ... Shall we measure cranial
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a
        person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or
        more prone to crime than a person from another race.
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > What race(s) would be dull-witted, lazy and felonious, pray tell?
        Shall we measure cranial widths and bumps as well?
        >
        > Wil
        > Ah Phrenology. I kept a head on my desk for several years. When I
        was tempted to digress from rational treatment I could always look
        at that perfect head. It was all wrong but it looked good. Bill
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 4:45 pm
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Michael,
        >
        >
        >
        > I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is
        more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the
        reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people
        have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in,
        their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the
        diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental
        characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but
        there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an
        individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a
        greater probability of a person of a given race being more
        intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person
        from another race.
        >
        > Tom
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        > From: bartleyoreg@...
        >
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM
        >
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
        >
        >
        >
        > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
        have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point
        of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other
        people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway,
        while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of
        interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that
        race is not that important.
        >
        > Michael
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        >
        > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
        >
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
        >
        > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
        >
        >
        >
        > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am
        >
        > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
        >
        > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
        Jewish
        >
        > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
        >
        > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
        >
        > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
        It
        >
        > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
        >
        > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
        good
        >
        > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
        idea
        >
        > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
        >
        > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
        European
        >
        > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
        >
        > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
        >
        > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
        >
        > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
        >
        > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
        >
        > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
        issue
        >
        > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
        black,
        >
        > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
        issue
        >
        > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
        very
        >
        > strange statement.
        >
        > > Michael
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        >
        > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
        >
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
        >
        > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
        >
        > concept,
        >
        > > frequently used as a political weapon.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Louise
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
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        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • eupraxis@aol.com
        Delectation of Independence Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time. Wil ... From: bartleyoreg@aol.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 5 Dec
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Delectation of Independence




          Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time.

          Wil




          -----Original Message-----
          From: bartleyoreg@...
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

























          Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting anywhere close?

          Michael



          -----Original Message-----

          From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm

          Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief



          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:

          >

          > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you

          have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your

          point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding

          other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?

          Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,

          would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our

          present world that race is not that important.

          > Michael



          Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good

          spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist

          seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such

          an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new

          members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the

          road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present

          world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a

          few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way

          all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society

          if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could

          flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of

          the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate

          embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the

          police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts

          of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would

          soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise



          >

          >

          > -----Original Message-----

          > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

          > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

          > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I

          am

          > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

          > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal

          Jewish

          > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

          > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

          > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.

          It

          > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

          > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a

          good

          > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

          > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit

          > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on

          European

          > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

          > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

          > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

          > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

          > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

          >

          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:

          > >

          > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

          > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical

          issue

          > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie

          black,

          > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical

          issue

          > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a

          very

          > strange statement.

          > > Michael

          > >

          > >

          > > -----Original Message-----

          > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

          > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

          > > Subject: [existlist] In brief

          > >

          > >

          > >

          > >

          > >

          > >

          > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

          > concept,

          > > frequently used as a political weapon.

          > >

          > > Louise

          > >

          > >

          > >

          > >

          > >

          > >

          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          > >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • tom
          What I said was that there were greater probabilities of certain strenghths and weaknesses appearing among races, but that many individuals will very much
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            What I said was that there were greater probabilities of certain strenghths and weaknesses appearing among races, but that many individuals will very much overlap. Its like saying that as a group, men are taller than women. However, there are numerous women over 6 feet, and some guys around 5 feet. Jewish and oriental students are more likely to be on the honor roll. Blacks are more likely to be the winners in track and field competition, and us white guys have the highest % of serial killers.Certain diseases are more prevalent among certain races.
            Tom
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: bhvwd
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:31 PM
            Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief


            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a
            person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or
            more prone to crime than a person from another race.
            >
            > Tom,
            >
            > What race(s) would be dull-witted, lazy and felonious, pray tell?
            Shall we measure cranial widths and bumps as well?
            >
            > Wil
            > Ah Phrenology. I kept a head on my desk for several years. When I
            was tempted to digress from rational treatment I could always look
            at that perfect head. It was all wrong but it looked good. Bill
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 4:45 pm
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Michael,
            >
            >
            >
            > I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is
            more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the
            reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people
            have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in,
            their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the
            diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental
            characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but
            there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an
            individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a
            greater probability of a person of a given race being more
            intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person
            from another race.
            >
            > Tom
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            >
            > From: bartleyoreg@...
            >
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM
            >
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
            >
            >
            >
            > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
            have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point
            of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other
            people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway,
            while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of
            interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that
            race is not that important.
            >
            > Michael
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            >
            > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
            >
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
            >
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
            >
            >
            >
            > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am
            >
            > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
            >
            > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
            Jewish
            >
            > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
            >
            > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
            >
            > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
            It
            >
            > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
            >
            > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
            good
            >
            > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
            idea
            >
            > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
            >
            > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
            European
            >
            > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
            >
            > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
            >
            > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
            >
            > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
            >
            > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
            >
            > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
            issue
            >
            > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
            black,
            >
            > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
            issue
            >
            > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
            very
            >
            > strange statement.
            >
            > > Michael
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            >
            > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
            >
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
            >
            > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
            >
            > concept,
            >
            > > frequently used as a political weapon.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Louise
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • tom
            I m very much a fan of the Declaration of Independance also. Of course, the point of newspeak George Orwell made was how beautiful words can still be
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              I'm very much a fan of the Declaration of Independance also. Of course, the point of 'newspeak' George Orwell made was how beautiful words can still be admired, while the practical aplication of such statement can gradually be changed. The very Americans who talk the most about our heritage, freedom etc are very often the ones that in reality promote agendas like getting in fights around the world and building a massive police state at home; and these were the things that guys like Washington and Jefferson saw as totally opposed to the new vision on which the US was founded. Shaun Hannity starts his radio show with "Let Freedom Ring" and has "Freedom Concerts", but his idea of freedom goes no further than going to the Judeochristian church of your choice, and investing in the 401k of your choice. Yesterday, Hannity had Bill Bennett as 1 of his guests, and Bennett was Drug Czar under Bush1. Freedom is used by these guys as another excuse for imperialistic aggression.

              Tom



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: bartleyoreg@...
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:03 PM
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief


              Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting anywhere close?
              Michael

              -----Original Message-----
              From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm
              Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
              >
              > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
              have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
              point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
              other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?
              Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
              would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
              present world that race is not that important.
              > Michael

              Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
              spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
              seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such
              an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
              members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the
              road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
              world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a
              few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
              all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society
              if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could
              flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of
              the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
              embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
              police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts
              of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
              soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I
              am
              > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
              > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
              Jewish
              > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
              > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
              > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
              It
              > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
              > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
              good
              > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
              > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
              > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
              European
              > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
              > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
              > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
              > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
              > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
              > >
              > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
              > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
              issue
              > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
              black,
              > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
              issue
              > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
              very
              > strange statement.
              > > Michael
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
              > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
              > concept,
              > > frequently used as a political weapon.
              > >
              > > Louise
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • bartleyoreg@aol.com
              opps! I knew I should have used the dictionary! In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:43:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eupraxis@aol.com writes: Delectation of
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                opps! I knew I should have used the dictionary!


                In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:43:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                eupraxis@... writes:







                Delectation of Independence

                Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time.

                Wil

                -----Original Message-----
                From: _bartleyoreg@bartley_ (mailto:bartleyoreg@...)
                To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)
                Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

                Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old,
                anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the
                Delectation of Independence.Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school,
                there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we
                are studying the Delectation of Independence.<WBR>? I get very excited about
                this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be
                agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the
                last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those
                values, while

                Michael

                -----Original Message-----

                From: louise <_hecubatoher@hecubatohhe_ (mailto:hecubatoher@...) >

                To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm

                Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                bartleyoreg@, bart

                >

                > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you

                have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your

                point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding

                other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?

                Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,

                would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our

                present world that race is not that important.

                > Michael

                Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good

                spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at

                seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such

                an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new

                members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the

                road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present

                world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a

                few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way

                all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society

                if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could

                flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of

                the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate

                embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the

                police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts

                of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would

                soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

                >

                >

                > -----Original Message-----

                > From: louise <hecubatoher@hec>

                > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

                > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I

                am

                > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

                > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal

                Jewish

                > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

                > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

                > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.

                It

                > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

                > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a

                good

                > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

                > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic' is religious. Th

                > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on

                European

                > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

                > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

                > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

                > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

                > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

                >

                > --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                bartleyoreg@ wrote:

                > >

                > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

                > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical

                issue

                > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie

                black,

                > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical

                issue

                > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a

                very

                > strange statement.

                > > Michael

                > >

                > >

                > > -----Original Message-----

                > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                > > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

                > > Subject: [existlist] In brief

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

                > concept,

                > > frequently used as a political weapon.

                > >

                > > Louise

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > >

                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                > >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
                favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
                (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • eupraxis@aol.com
                Tom, Well, I understand the save, but this is all still prejudice, in my opinion, if you are explaining such differences (even if they were accurate) as caused
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tom,

                  Well, I understand the save, but this is all still prejudice, in my opinion,
                  if you are explaining such differences (even if they were accurate) as caused
                  by a "race" factor. Second and third generation Asians do not show any marked
                  difference with the student population as a whole, leading one to assume that
                  there is a cultural/'nurture' factor at work here. 'Blacks', qua Black, "are
                  not likely to be the winners in track and field competition"; tall, long-legged
                  people are. See Aristotle on attribution of cause.

                  Mutatis mutandis.

                  In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately being
                  difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is with the actual
                  concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the delicate matter of the 'ism' of
                  race. Using race as a thing-unto-itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural
                  difference in the great chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist
                  act, regardless of whether this is done as it were benignly.

                  Let us not forget, this topic has been broached here alongside such other
                  questions as racial identity as patriotism, ethnic cleansing, forced mono-ethnic
                  societies, and the so forth. The 'bad others', so far, seem to have been South
                  Asians and Near Asians. What talents/stigmata do they have? Good at school,
                  but bad fashion sense?

                  I do not attribute any of this to you, of course. I try not to attribute any
                  of this to Louise, either, since I believe that she is mistaken and not
                  malevolent. I live in the deep South, USA. My patience for these has long ago been
                  tapped out.

                  Wil

                  In a message dated 12/5/08 7:02:24 PM, tsmith17_midsouth1@... writes:

                  > What I said was that there were greater probabilities of certain strenghths
                  > and weaknesses appearing among races, but that many individuals will very
                  > much overlap. Its like saying that as a group, men are taller than women.
                  > However, there are numerous women over 6 feet, and some guys around 5 feet. Jewish
                  > and oriental students are more likely to be on the honor roll. Blacks are
                  > more likely to be the winners in track and field competition, and us white guys
                  > have the highest % of serial killers.Certain diseases are more prevalent
                  > among certain races.
                  > Tom
                  >
                  >
                  >




                  **************
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • bhvwd
                  ... course, the point of newspeak George Orwell made was how beautiful words can still be admired, while the practical aplication of such statement can
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I'm very much a fan of the Declaration of Independance also. Of
                    course, the point of 'newspeak' George Orwell made was how beautiful
                    words can still be admired, while the practical aplication of such
                    statement can gradually be changed. The very Americans who talk the
                    most about our heritage, freedom etc are very often the ones that in
                    reality promote agendas like getting in fights around the world and
                    building a massive police state at home; and these were the things
                    that guys like Washington and Jefferson saw as totally opposed to the
                    new vision on which the US was founded. Shaun Hannity starts his
                    radio show with "Let Freedom Ring" and has "Freedom Concerts", but
                    his idea of freedom goes no further than going to the Judeochristian
                    church of your choice, and investing in the 401k of your choice.
                    Yesterday, Hannity had Bill Bennett as 1 of his guests, and Bennett
                    was Drug Czar under Bush1. Freedom is used by these guys as another
                    excuse for imperialistic aggression.
                    > Tom I have hope for you , even if you lapse into self absorption
                    and putrid rhetoric. Please continue to expunge and we will happily
                    accomidate your demise. I write my sort of immersables and report
                    that the better men I have known have hung their butts out. Imagine
                    the courage of exclamination, get the point!Bill
                    > Tom
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: bartleyoreg@...
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:03 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
                    >
                    >
                    > Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14
                    years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we
                    are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited
                    about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe
                    it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any
                    other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an
                    American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to
                    them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That
                    part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting
                    anywhere close?
                    > Michael
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm
                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that
                    you
                    > have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
                    > point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
                    > other people posting then having or winning an agrument with
                    them.?
                    > Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
                    > would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
                    > present world that race is not that important.
                    > > Michael
                    >
                    > Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
                    > spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
                    > seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of
                    such
                    > an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
                    > members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating
                    the
                    > road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
                    > world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for
                    a
                    > few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
                    > all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of
                    society
                    > if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race
                    could
                    > flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention
                    of
                    > the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
                    > embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
                    > police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive
                    outbursts
                    > of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
                    > soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect.
                    Louise
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                    > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
                    > > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point
                    I
                    > am
                    > > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic,
                    and
                    > > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
                    > Jewish
                    > > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
                    > > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of
                    other
                    > > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their
                    interests.
                    > It
                    > > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
                    > > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
                    > good
                    > > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
                    idea
                    > > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to
                    inhibit
                    > > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
                    > European
                    > > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
                    > > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and
                    war.
                    > > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is
                    better
                    > > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
                    > > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
                    > >
                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part
                    of
                    > > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
                    > issue
                    > > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
                    > black,
                    > > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
                    > issue
                    > > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
                    > very
                    > > strange statement.
                    > > > Michael
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                    > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
                    > > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
                    > > concept,
                    > > > frequently used as a political weapon.
                    > > >
                    > > > Louise
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Paul Jacobson
                    Actually one could argue that the Declaration Of Independence was indeed Delectable ........ PJ ... From: bartleyoreg@aol.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Actually one could argue that the Declaration Of Independence was indeed "Delectable"........
                      PJ

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: bartleyoreg@...
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:30 PM
                      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief


                      opps! I knew I should have used the dictionary!


                      In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:43:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                      eupraxis@... writes:

                      Delectation of Independence

                      Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time.

                      Wil

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: _bartleyoreg@bartley_ (mailto:bartleyoreg@...)
                      To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)
                      Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
                      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

                      Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old,
                      anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the
                      Delectation of Independence.Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school,
                      there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we
                      are studying the Delectation of Independence.<WBR>? I get very excited about
                      this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be
                      agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the
                      last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those
                      values, while

                      Michael

                      -----Original Message-----

                      From: louise <_hecubatoher@hecubatohhe_ (mailto:hecubatoher@...) >

                      To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                      Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm

                      Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                      --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                      bartleyoreg@, bart

                      >

                      > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you

                      have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your

                      point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding

                      other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?

                      Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,

                      would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our

                      present world that race is not that important.

                      > Michael

                      Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good

                      spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at

                      seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such

                      an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new

                      members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the

                      road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present

                      world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a

                      few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way

                      all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society

                      if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could

                      flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of

                      the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate

                      embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the

                      police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts

                      of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would

                      soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

                      >

                      >

                      > -----Original Message-----

                      > From: louise <hecubatoher@hec>

                      > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                      > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I

                      am

                      > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

                      > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal

                      Jewish

                      > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

                      > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

                      > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.

                      It

                      > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

                      > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a

                      good

                      > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

                      > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic' is religious. Th

                      > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on

                      European

                      > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

                      > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

                      > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

                      > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

                      > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

                      >

                      > --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                      bartleyoreg@ wrote:

                      > >

                      > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

                      > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical

                      issue

                      > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie

                      black,

                      > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical

                      issue

                      > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a

                      very

                      > strange statement.

                      > > Michael

                      > >

                      > >

                      > > -----Original Message-----

                      > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                      > > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                      > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

                      > > Subject: [existlist] In brief

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

                      > concept,

                      > > frequently used as a political weapon.

                      > >

                      > > Louise

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > >

                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      > >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
                      favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
                      (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010)

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                    • jimstuart51
                      All, I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject matter. One central issue is
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        All,

                        I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and
                        constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject
                        matter.

                        One central issue is the question of whether to engage in a
                        philosophical discussion of racism, assuming the concept of race to
                        be a valid concept, is itself to fall into racist attitudes. Thus Wil
                        writes:

                        "In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately
                        being difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is
                        with the actual concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the
                        delicate matter of the 'ism' of race. Using race as a thing-unto-
                        itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural difference in the great
                        chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist act, regardless
                        of whether this is done as it were benignly." (45883)

                        As against this, Louise calls for philosophers to accept the concept
                        of race as valid and to address this matter more thoroughly than
                        before:

                        "Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way all the
                        time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society if this
                        were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could flourish,
                        instead of the current situation, in which the mention of the topic
                        in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate embarrassment or
                        hostility. And may readily lead straight to the police cell, and the
                        courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts of those with little
                        to say that stands up to any scrutiny would soon be eclipsed, if
                        serious people were shown due respect." (45874)

                        I think both these view can be accommodated if the philosophical
                        discussion centres on the question whether or not the concept of race
                        is a valid concept.

                        On one side, the more scientifically-orientated philosophers may
                        argue that race is a `natural kind' term which can be used to pick
                        out, in an objective way, individuals who fall under one or other
                        racial category.

                        On the other side, the more subjectively-orientated philosophers may
                        argue that the whole idea of a natural-kind concept is dubious. They
                        would argue that the concepts we use answer to our interests, and if
                        we view a conceptual distinction as not being in our interests than
                        that distinction is to be rejected as invalid.

                        Nietzsche argued for this latter view when pouring score on those
                        ascetic individuals who put a disinterested `will to truth' above all
                        else. He views such individuals as weak and `anti-life'. Of course
                        the irony here is that the concept of race was one which featured in
                        Nietzsche's writings. Whilst I would not consider Nietzsche a racist,
                        he seems to come out as a `benign racist' according to Wil's
                        criterion, as he seems to accept the validity of the concept of race.

                        Another irony is that for Louise, she wishes the concept of race to
                        be discussed for cultural reasons. She is concerned that the British
                        white culture is not allowed to die out. Leftists and liberals are
                        often keen to defend the rights of minority cultures to survive
                        untainted by Western imperialism and capitalism. Western liberals
                        like myself feel that the native Indians of America and the
                        Aborigines of Australia have a right to protect their own culture
                        from extinction, but we feel uneasy when white British people argue
                        for the same right of protection.

                        I have some sympathy for those traditional cultures who do not wish
                        to be subsumed by Western capitalism. I don't want a MacDonalds in
                        every primitive village, or the top television companies beaming out
                        their lies from a television in every public meeting place.

                        On the other hand wishing to preserve one's own culture or race in
                        some sort of `pure' form makes me very uneasy as well.

                        Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                        people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                        Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                        another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                        of their opponent race as not fully human – not even human at all. In
                        fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                        brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                        just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                        2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                        well.)

                        The way forward, in my view, if for the philosopher to argue that all
                        human beings – whatever their racial or cultural background – are
                        fully human, and, as such, are equally valuable in themselves, and,
                        because of this, deserve to be treated with benevolence and respect,
                        as `ends in themselves, and never as means'. Kant argued for this
                        view in theory, but I gather that in practice he was not quite able
                        to see some foreigners as fully human.

                        Jim
                      • tom
                        Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal. Those cases where one
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                          people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                          Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                          another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                          of their opponent race as not fully human - not even human at all. In
                          fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                          brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                          just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                          2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                          well.)Jim

                          I read a Tolstoy quote once saying that as long as we have slaughter houses we'll have front lines. The hunting gatherring party, the first social group was bounded as to everything outside of us is game.Making a blood sacrafice to the tribal God. Tribal people r so much more closely connected with each other than we. Civiliozed people lack the same unity that tribals share. However, the very closeness with each other as compared to civilized cats is matched by the willingness to align wit the emerging value
                          Tom.

                          Tom
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: jimstuart51
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:07 AM
                          Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief


                          All,

                          I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and
                          constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject
                          matter.

                          One central issue is the question of whether to engage in a
                          philosophical discussion of racism, assuming the concept of race to
                          be a valid concept, is itself to fall into racist attitudes. Thus Wil
                          writes:

                          "In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately
                          being difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is
                          with the actual concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the
                          delicate matter of the 'ism' of race. Using race as a thing-unto-
                          itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural difference in the great
                          chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist act, regardless
                          of whether this is done as it were benignly." (45883)

                          As against this, Louise calls for philosophers to accept the concept
                          of race as valid and to address this matter more thoroughly than
                          before:

                          "Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way all the
                          time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society if this
                          were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could flourish,
                          instead of the current situation, in which the mention of the topic
                          in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate embarrassment or
                          hostility. And may readily lead straight to the police cell, and the
                          courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts of those with little
                          to say that stands up to any scrutiny would soon be eclipsed, if
                          serious people were shown due respect." (45874)

                          I think both these view can be accommodated if the philosophical
                          discussion centres on the question whether or not the concept of race
                          is a valid concept.

                          On one side, the more scientifically-orientated philosophers may
                          argue that race is a `natural kind' term which can be used to pick
                          out, in an objective way, individuals who fall under one or other
                          racial category.

                          On the other side, the more subjectively-orientated philosophers may
                          argue that the whole idea of a natural-kind concept is dubious. They
                          would argue that the concepts we use answer to our interests, and if
                          we view a conceptual distinction as not being in our interests than
                          that distinction is to be rejected as invalid.

                          Nietzsche argued for this latter view when pouring score on those
                          ascetic individuals who put a disinterested `will to truth' above all
                          else. He views such individuals as weak and `anti-life'. Of course
                          the irony here is that the concept of race was one which featured in
                          Nietzsche's writings. Whilst I would not consider Nietzsche a racist,
                          he seems to come out as a `benign racist' according to Wil's
                          criterion, as he seems to accept the validity of the concept of race.

                          Another irony is that for Louise, she wishes the concept of race to
                          be discussed for cultural reasons. She is concerned that the British
                          white culture is not allowed to die out. Leftists and liberals are
                          often keen to defend the rights of minority cultures to survive
                          untainted by Western imperialism and capitalism. Western liberals
                          like myself feel that the native Indians of America and the
                          Aborigines of Australia have a right to protect their own culture
                          from extinction, but we feel uneasy when white British people argue
                          for the same right of protection.

                          I have some sympathy for those traditional cultures who do not wish
                          to be subsumed by Western capitalism. I don't want a MacDonalds in
                          every primitive village, or the top television companies beaming out
                          their lies from a television in every public meeting place.

                          On the other hand wishing to preserve one's own culture or race in
                          some sort of `pure' form makes me very uneasy as well.

                          Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                          people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                          Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                          another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                          of their opponent race as not fully human - not even human at all. In
                          fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                          brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                          just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                          2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                          well.)

                          The way forward, in my view, if for the philosopher to argue that all
                          human beings - whatever their racial or cultural background - are
                          fully human, and, as such, are equally valuable in themselves, and,
                          because of this, deserve to be treated with benevolence and respect,
                          as `ends in themselves, and never as means'. Kant argued for this
                          view in theory, but I gather that in practice he was not quite able
                          to see some foreigners as fully human.

                          Jim





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • eupraxis@aol.com
                          Jim, Thanks for the post. Many writers before the last Century, with all of its horrors and the hindsight gleaned from them, have used the concept of race in
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jim,

                            Thanks for the post.

                            Many writers before the last Century, with all of its horrors and the
                            hindsight gleaned from them, have used the concept of race in one way or another.
                            Kant says some very terrible things about black Africans; Engels writes about the
                            small brains of American aboriginals; Nietzsche talks about the hot Latin
                            races, and so on. These statements are not part of a formal theory, but were
                            rather part and parcel of a naive prejudice held by the mainstream in the West
                            that were never examined thoroughly. Since the advent of Nazism and other overt
                            racist movements, the concept of race has been examined in all relevant fields,
                            including recently in the genetic sciences. The conclusion wrought from all
                            of these fields is that "race" is a street notion, an intellectual slang with
                            no formal veracity, a way to group family resemblances but not to associate
                            anything otherwise unusually innate to them vis-a-vis others, other than a
                            propensity to have gas after eating cheese or to develop a rare kind of anemia, etc.


                            Thus race is a term the importance of which is only to be gleaned from its
                            context, especially in writings since the 19th Century. I prefer never to use
                            it, except for phrases like "human race" and the like.

                            If we look at a writer like Spengler, whom I admire, we see how he developed
                            a very sophisticated way of understanding race as a trans-morphic secondary
                            characteristic of 'man'. If one takes a look at his monumental "Decline of the
                            West", you will see how he understands race as something that changes over
                            time. Humanity is thoroughly 'plastic' for Spengler. He contended against the
                            notion of racial superiority.

                            Even Nietzsche, whose remarks are nearly always more 'rhetorical' than
                            formal, anyway, associates the behavior of 'races' with their culinary practices and
                            weather, rather than with some virtually occult 'essence'. Perhaps those who
                            eat too many sausages have a different mood than those who eat a 'Continental
                            breakfast'? Dunno...

                            I have always found it remarkable how racists here in the US have warned
                            against the polluting of American culture by "blacks", when the obvious fact of
                            the matter is that American culture is totally infused with black culture, and
                            always has been since there was a discernible American culture in the first
                            place! While I understand the fear of a MacDonalds being on every street corner
                            of London, it is nevertheless the case that American culture (R&B, blues, rock
                            and roll, etc.) has already so affected British popular culture as to be, by
                            now, indissociable from it. For many years, there were more white Brit kids
                            from Liverpool listening to recordings of Albert King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy
                            Waters than kids from Long Island, where I grew up.

                            In any case, you offer us two basic alternatives: either to argue about race
                            from within its own controversy (what is race, is there race?), or to argue
                            about race from the oblique position of ethics and politics, if we assume, as a
                            prior condition, that all persons deserve respect. I, for one. would welcome
                            either, as I have no doubt that the conclusions of both would lead in a
                            parallel direction.

                            Wil



                            In a message dated 12/7/08 8:09:36 AM, jjimstuart1@... writes:


                            > All,
                            >
                            > I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and
                            > constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject
                            > matter.
                            >
                            > One central issue is the question of whether to engage in a
                            > philosophical discussion of racism, assuming the concept of race to
                            > be a valid concept, is itself to fall into racist attitudes. Thus Wil
                            > writes:
                            >
                            > "In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately
                            > being difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is
                            > with the actual concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the
                            > delicate matter of the 'ism' of race. Using race as a thing-unto-
                            > itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural difference in the great
                            > chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist act, regardless
                            > of whether this is done as it were benignly." (45883)
                            >
                            > As against this, Louise calls for philosophers to accept the concept
                            > of race as valid and to address this matter more thoroughly than
                            > before:
                            >
                            > "Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way all the
                            > time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society if this
                            > were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could flourish,
                            > instead of the current situation, in which the mention of the topic
                            > in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate embarrassment or
                            > hostility. And may readily lead straight to the police cell, and the
                            > courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts of those with little
                            > to say that stands up to any scrutiny would soon be eclipsed, if
                            > serious people were shown due respect." (45874)
                            >
                            > I think both these view can be accommodated if the philosophical
                            > discussion centres on the question whether or not the concept of race
                            > is a valid concept.
                            >
                            > On one side, the more scientifically- On one side, the more scien
                            > argue that race is a `natural kind' term which can be used to pick
                            > out, in an objective way, individuals who fall under one or other
                            > racial category.
                            >
                            > On the other side, the more subjectively- On the other side, the more
                            > argue that the whole idea of a natural-kind concept is dubious. They
                            > would argue that the concepts we use answer to our interests, and if
                            > we view a conceptual distinction as not being in our interests than
                            > that distinction is to be rejected as invalid.
                            >
                            > Nietzsche argued for this latter view when pouring score on those
                            > ascetic individuals who put a disinterested `will to truth' above all
                            > else. He views such individuals as weak and `anti-life'. Of course
                            > the irony here is that the concept of race was one which featured in
                            > Nietzsche's writings. Whilst I would not consider Nietzsche a racist,
                            > he seems to come out as a `benign racist' according to Wil's
                            > criterion, as he seems to accept the validity of the concept of race.
                            >
                            > Another irony is that for Louise, she wishes the concept of race to
                            > be discussed for cultural reasons. She is concerned that the British
                            > white culture is not allowed to die out. Leftists and liberals are
                            > often keen to defend the rights of minority cultures to survive
                            > untainted by Western imperialism and capitalism. Western liberals
                            > like myself feel that the native Indians of America and the
                            > Aborigines of Australia have a right to protect their own culture
                            > from extinction, but we feel uneasy when white British people argue
                            > for the same right of protection.
                            >
                            > I have some sympathy for those traditional cultures who do not wish
                            > to be subsumed by Western capitalism. I don't want a MacDonalds in
                            > every primitive village, or the top television companies beaming out
                            > their lies from a television in every public meeting place.
                            >
                            > On the other hand wishing to preserve one's own culture or race in
                            > some sort of `pure' form makes me very uneasy as well.
                            >
                            > Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                            > people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                            > Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                            > another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                            > of their opponent race as not fully human – not even human at all. In
                            > fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                            > brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                            > just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                            > 2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                            > well.)
                            >
                            > The way forward, in my view, if for the philosopher to argue that all
                            > human beings – whatever their racial or cultural background – are
                            > fully human, and, as such, are equally valuable in themselves, and,
                            > because of this, deserve to be treated with benevolence and respect,
                            > as `ends in themselves, and never as means'. Kant argued for this
                            > view in theory, but I gather that in practice he was not quite able
                            > to see some foreigners as fully human.
                            >
                            > Jim
                            >
                            >
                            >




                            **************
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jimstuart51
                            Wil, Thanks for your post – I find myself in agreement with just about everything you have written on this subject. I ll just comment specifically on this
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                              Wil,

                              Thanks for your post – I find myself in agreement with just about
                              everything you have written on this subject.

                              I'll just comment specifically on this section from your post:

                              "While I understand the fear of a MacDonalds being on every street
                              corner of London, it is nevertheless the case that American culture
                              (R&B, blues, rock and roll, etc.) has already so affected British
                              popular culture as to be, by now, indissociable from it. For many
                              years, there were more white Brit kids from Liverpool listening to
                              recordings of Albert King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy Waters than kids
                              from Long Island, where I grew up."

                              I, myself, am not too concerned about American culture dominating
                              over here. I consider myself rather a `counter-culture' person
                              anyway, quite happy to embrace things which are often explicitly
                              reactions against the mainstream culture, whether British or American.

                              More than anything else, I consider myself to be a European rather
                              than English or British. I see myself as part of the intellectual
                              culture of Europe which started with the Ancient Greeks, then moved
                              to the Romans, and more than anything else I see myself as a product
                              of the Enlightenment.

                              I found myself feeling a sense of pride when I read Zizek writing:

                              "What makes modern Europe unique is that it is the first and only
                              civilisation in which atheism is a fully legitimate option, not an
                              obstacle to any public post. This is most emphatically a European
                              legacy worth fighting for. (Violence, p. 118)

                              I suppose I also feel myself to be a continuation of a tradition of
                              English radicalism which embraced such groups as the Quakers, the
                              Chartists and the early trade unionists.

                              Referring to myself as European tends to annoy British/English
                              nationalists and patriots. However they themselves seem to be on
                              tricky ground when asked if they are primarily English or British.

                              I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British' and
                              sometimes as `English'. This is only likely to annoy anybody who is
                              Scottish or Welsh. As you know, England has conquered both Wales and
                              Scotland at some time or other, and today there are many Welsh and
                              Scottish nationalists who wish to defend their Welsh and Scottish
                              culture from the English imperialists.

                              Sometimes these Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk of the English
                              as a different race!

                              Finally, moving from culture back to race, I can honestly say that to
                              me race is a total non-issue. I see people as human beings primarily
                              and hardly notice the colour of their skin. Just as I would be
                              perfectly happy for my children to be gay, I would be perfectly happy
                              for them to have loving relationships with individuals from different
                              racial and cultural backgrounds.

                              Perhaps it could be argued that I am so unconcerned about cultural
                              and racial only because I have never suffered at the hands of a
                              stronger cultural or racial aggressor. Certainly being male, white,
                              heterosexual, middle class and European, I acknowledge that I am
                              probably not the best person to talk on the subject of the oppression
                              of minorities.

                              Jim
                            • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                              ... not really interested in race issues, as i don t see how anyone actually conversant with modern genetic DNA research can be a racist. racism is outdated
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > most
                                > people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                                > Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                                > another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                                > of their opponent race as not fully human – not even human at all.
                                > Jim

                                not really interested in race issues, as i don't see how anyone actually
                                conversant with modern genetic DNA research can be a racist. racism is
                                outdated bad science and the cumulative result of colonialist thought
                                (maybe also a specialized result of elitist or wanna-be ruling class
                                thinking).

                                i don't see racism as necessarily connected to nationalism at all.
                                nationalism, as most things, may be either destructive and hateful of
                                others or a positive unifying force which respects the positive
                                nationalism of others.

                                i don't think racism has been either a primary or universal frame of
                                reference in relation to the other, as there is ample evidence for
                                non-racist contact among archaic populations in low population density
                                areas.

                                first of all racism involves a belief in father-right and sexual purity,
                                but humans are just as related to the bonobo (whose society is not based
                                on "sexual selection") as to the larger chimpanzee. there are
                                populations, as in pre-Christian northern Eurasia, where sexual purity
                                was not necessarily demanded of females, and father right is not
                                necessarily primary. in low population density areas the primary
                                consideration is likely to be female fertility as a value rather than
                                virginity, and children are going to be valued as valuable additions to
                                the group as long as they contribute and support group norms. native
                                Americans for example kidnapped also white children when there were not
                                enough in the tribe.

                                here's an interesting article that speaks of current attitudes as
                                deriving from earlier pagan views:
                                http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/18/iceland

                                northeastern Europe is a good example of genetic diversity going back to
                                the aboriginal populations, which for the sake of simplicity may be seen
                                as for the first thousands of years as Finnic, Baltic, and Scandinavian
                                - each of them with complex timespace diverse subgroup developments.
                                there are graves of spouses of different genetic type backgrounds. even
                                in the 9th - 12th c. alliances were not made on the basis of race. thus
                                the (Baltic Finnic) Livs might ally themselves with a (Indo-Euroean
                                speaking) Balt tribe against an (Baltic Finnic) Estonian tribe or
                                another Balt tribe, but in the next round might find themselves
                                switching alliances.

                                organized military aggression in northeastern Europe is introduced by
                                Indo-European military raider bands, of whom the Scandinavian Vikings
                                are best known. the Sami of northern Europe, an archaic Europoid
                                population with both "western" and "eastern" genetics (true also of the
                                East Baltic), were unprepared for the aggression of the Iron Age on
                                warrior culture marauder raiders resulting in folklore about the
                                "Tchudes" as portrayed in the Sami Norvegian film "Pathfinder" (1987).
                                if sometimes the portrayal of Tchudes comes close to the portrayal of
                                cannibalistic ogres "stallu" that does not have to be taken as evidence
                                of innate racism. aggression, rather than race, is the primary reason
                                for characterizing the raiders as not human. friendly contacts with
                                anthropomorphically dissimilar groups does not seem to result in racism.

                                in short, i think even to modern times aggression against a particular
                                population is much more fundamentally political in the E. Baltic area,
                                rather than intrinsically racially motivated. both the Finnish and
                                Latvian peoples in particular had tragic civil war political types of
                                conflicts dividing primarily brother against brother as defender of
                                either the so-called "reds" or "whites." i think Finland is an
                                excellent example of a country that in recent times has fully come to
                                terms with its history (that is how it was, and those were the factors
                                from a systems point of view) and in research seems to welcome all new
                                evidence without feeling its core threatened, resulting in a much more
                                integrated population.

                                aija
                              • eupraxis@aol.com
                                Jim, Thanks. Again, I am in agreement with your basic enframing of the topic. Wil ... ************** Stay in touch with ALL of your friends: update your AIM,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                  Jim,

                                  Thanks. Again, I am in agreement with your basic enframing of the topic.

                                  Wil

                                  In a message dated 12/7/08 11:21:06 AM, jjimstuart1@... writes:


                                  > Wil,
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for your post – I find myself in agreement with just about
                                  > everything you have written on this subject.
                                  >
                                  > I'll just comment specifically on this section from your post:
                                  >
                                  > "While I understand the fear of a MacDonalds being on every street
                                  > corner of London, it is nevertheless the case that American culture
                                  > (R&B, blues, rock and roll, etc.) has already so affected British
                                  > popular culture as to be, by now, indissociable from it. For many
                                  > years, there were more white Brit kids from Liverpool listening to
                                  > recordings of Albert King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy Waters than kids
                                  > from Long Island, where I grew up."
                                  >
                                  > I, myself, am not too concerned about American culture dominating
                                  > over here. I consider myself rather a `counter-culture' person
                                  > anyway, quite happy to embrace things which are often explicitly
                                  > reactions against the mainstream culture, whether British or American.
                                  >
                                  > More than anything else, I consider myself to be a European rather
                                  > than English or British. I see myself as part of the intellectual
                                  > culture of Europe which started with the Ancient Greeks, then moved
                                  > to the Romans, and more than anything else I see myself as a product
                                  > of the Enlightenment.
                                  >
                                  > I found myself feeling a sense of pride when I read Zizek writing:
                                  >
                                  > "What makes modern Europe unique is that it is the first and only
                                  > civilisation in which atheism is a fully legitimate option, not an
                                  > obstacle to any public post. This is most emphatically a European
                                  > legacy worth fighting for. (Violence, p. 118)
                                  >
                                  > I suppose I also feel myself to be a continuation of a tradition of
                                  > English radicalism which embraced such groups as the Quakers, the
                                  > Chartists and the early trade unionists.
                                  >
                                  > Referring to myself as European tends to annoy British/English
                                  > nationalists and patriots. However they themselves seem to be on
                                  > tricky ground when asked if they are primarily English or British.
                                  >
                                  > I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British' and
                                  > sometimes as `English'. This is only likely to annoy anybody who is
                                  > Scottish or Welsh. As you know, England has conquered both Wales and
                                  > Scotland at some time or other, and today there are many Welsh and
                                  > Scottish nationalists who wish to defend their Welsh and Scottish
                                  > culture from the English imperialists.
                                  >
                                  > Sometimes these Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk of the English
                                  > as a different race!
                                  >
                                  > Finally, moving from culture back to race, I can honestly say that to
                                  > me race is a total non-issue. I see people as human beings primarily
                                  > and hardly notice the colour of their skin. Just as I would be
                                  > perfectly happy for my children to be gay, I would be perfectly happy
                                  > for them to have loving relationships with individuals from different
                                  > racial and cultural backgrounds.
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps it could be argued that I am so unconcerned about cultural
                                  > and racial only because I have never suffered at the hands of a
                                  > stronger cultural or racial aggressor. Certainly being male, white,
                                  > heterosexual, middle class and European, I acknowledge that I am
                                  > probably not the best person to talk on the subject of the oppression
                                  > of minorities.
                                  >
                                  > Jim
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >




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                                • louise
                                  ... Tom, No, actually, I am arguing that before one proceeds to question whether there are measurable differences between races, one should ascertain the
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                                    > people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.

                                    Tom,

                                    No, actually, I am arguing that before one proceeds to question whether
                                    there are measurable differences between races, one should ascertain
                                    the meaning of human equality. It is a spiritual or philosophical
                                    reality, not necessarily a scientific one. The divorce of science from
                                    a feeling for the sacredness of life is at the root of our modern
                                    malaise. A sweepingly general statement, but reasonable, I think.

                                    Louise
                                  • louise
                                    Jim: I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British and sometimes as `English . This is only likely to annoy anybody who is Scottish or Welsh. As
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                      Jim: "I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British' and
                                      sometimes as `English'. This is only likely to annoy anybody who is
                                      Scottish or Welsh. As you know, England has conquered both Wales and
                                      Scotland at some time or other, and today there are many Welsh and
                                      Scottish nationalists who wish to defend their Welsh and Scottish
                                      culture from the English imperialists.
                                      Sometimes these Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk of the English
                                      as a different race!"

                                      Welsh and Scottish nationalists who are annoyed by my description of
                                      myself as either British or English would be most untypical, surely,
                                      since I am obviously both, and legitimately so. Of course they are
                                      likely to be annoyed when Britain and England are named as though
                                      interchangeable, for this shows disrespect to the Scots and Welsh (as
                                      ignoring their existence) and to many Northern Irish folk who value
                                      their British nationality. There is a difference between a human
                                      being and a nation! I myself find it irritating or embarrassing when
                                      no distinction is made between the two. As for being different
                                      races, well, that might be an interesting discussion. The tribal
                                      origins of the various people who have inhabited the British isles
                                      both before and after the Norman conquest is a complex study. I am
                                      reading a book about the Vikings at the moment, and their impact on
                                      the Christian English. Fearful stuff. Louise
                                    • jimstuart51
                                      Aija, Thank you for your thoughtful and informative post. Let me comment on a couple of the sections from your post: Aija: not really interested in race
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                        Aija,

                                        Thank you for your thoughtful and informative post. Let me comment on
                                        a couple of the sections from your post:

                                        Aija: not really interested in race issues, as i don't see how anyone
                                        actually conversant with modern genetic DNA research can be a racist.
                                        racism is outdated bad science and the cumulative result of
                                        colonialist thought (maybe also a specialized result of elitist or
                                        wanna-be ruling class thinking).

                                        Jim: Racism may indeed be "outdated bad science," but there is still
                                        quite a lot of it about, particularly amongst those without a
                                        scientific education. I am only interested in racism to the extent
                                        that I think there is still work to be done, both intellectual and
                                        practical, to eliminate it.

                                        Aija: i don't see racism as necessarily connected to nationalism at
                                        all. nationalism, as most things, may be either destructive and
                                        hateful of others or a positive unifying force which respects the
                                        positive nationalism of others.

                                        Jim: It would be nice if nationalism were predominantly "a positive
                                        unifying force which respects the positive nationalism of others."
                                        However my own experience is that it is usually "destructive and
                                        hateful of others." Perhaps, if like the Finns, we can learn from
                                        history, then nationalism can be a force for good. Perhaps each of us
                                        can be proud of our nation's greatest achievements, whilst
                                        acknowledging our nation's worst behaviour (both past and present).
                                        Unfortunately the propaganda apparatus in most countries manages to
                                        portray the nation as always in the right. Further, individuals seem
                                        to have a strong subconscious desire to convince themselves that
                                        their social group (i.e. their nation) is the good guys. Also, in
                                        most countries at most times, it is considered unpatriotic to
                                        question the correctness of one's nation's foreign policy.


                                        What you write about "father right and sexual purity" is most
                                        interesting. I agree that those societies where pagan traditions
                                        dominated seem to have emerged in a more healthy state than those
                                        where Christian attitudes predominated. In Britain, Christian moral
                                        attitudes are the biggest hindrance to genuine ethical progress.


                                        Finally, the article on Iceland was interesting, although I wonder to
                                        what extent the recent catastrophic failure of the Icelandic banks
                                        will change things. Also, for a bleaker view of Iceland, I recommend
                                        the film "Jar City" (Iceland 2008 Dir Baltasar Kormakur).

                                        Jim
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