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Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

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  • tom
    Michael, I agree with you that understanding other people s point of view is more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the reality of
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
      Michael,

      I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in, their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person from another race.
      Tom

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: bartleyoreg@...
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief


      Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that race is not that important.
      Michael

      -----Original Message-----
      From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
      Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

      Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am
      making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
      that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal Jewish
      solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
      term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
      racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests. It
      seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
      themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a good
      deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
      is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
      free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on European
      peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
      history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
      Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
      understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
      reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
      >
      > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
      philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical issue
      or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie black,
      women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical issue
      or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a very
      strange statement.
      > Michael
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
      > Subject: [existlist] In brief
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
      concept,
      > frequently used as a political weapon.
      >
      > Louise
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • bartleyoreg@aol.com
      Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
        Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting anywhere close?
        Michael


        -----Original Message-----
        From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm
        Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief






        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
        >
        > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
        have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
        point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
        other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?
        Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
        would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
        present world that race is not that important.
        > Michael

        Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
        spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
        seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such
        an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
        members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the
        road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
        world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a
        few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
        all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society
        if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could
        flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of
        the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
        embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
        police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts
        of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
        soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
        > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I
        am
        > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
        > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
        Jewish
        > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
        > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
        > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
        It
        > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
        > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
        good
        > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
        > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
        > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
        European
        > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
        > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
        > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
        > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
        > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
        > >
        > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
        > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
        issue
        > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
        black,
        > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
        issue
        > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
        very
        > strange statement.
        > > Michael
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
        > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
        > concept,
        > > frequently used as a political weapon.
        > >
        > > Louise
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • eupraxis@aol.com
        At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
          At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person from another race.

          Tom,

          What race(s) would be dull-witted, lazy and felonious, pray tell? Shall we measure cranial widths and bumps as well?

          Wil







          -----Original Message-----
          From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 4:45 pm
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

























          Michael,



          I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in, their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person from another race.

          Tom



          ----- Original Message -----

          From: bartleyoreg@...

          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM

          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief



          Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that race is not that important.

          Michael



          -----Original Message-----

          From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

          Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief



          Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am

          making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

          that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal Jewish

          solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

          term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

          racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests. It

          seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

          themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a good

          deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

          is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit

          free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on European

          peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

          history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

          Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

          understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

          reveals the full meanings of history. Louise



          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:

          >

          > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

          philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical issue

          or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie black,

          women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical issue

          or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a very

          strange statement.

          > Michael

          >

          >

          > -----Original Message-----

          > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

          > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

          > Subject: [existlist] In brief

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

          concept,

          > frequently used as a political weapon.

          >

          > Louise

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • bhvwd
          ... person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person from another race. ... Shall we measure cranial
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a
            person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or
            more prone to crime than a person from another race.
            >
            > Tom,
            >
            > What race(s) would be dull-witted, lazy and felonious, pray tell?
            Shall we measure cranial widths and bumps as well?
            >
            > Wil
            > Ah Phrenology. I kept a head on my desk for several years. When I
            was tempted to digress from rational treatment I could always look
            at that perfect head. It was all wrong but it looked good. Bill
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 4:45 pm
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Michael,
            >
            >
            >
            > I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is
            more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the
            reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people
            have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in,
            their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the
            diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental
            characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but
            there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an
            individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a
            greater probability of a person of a given race being more
            intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person
            from another race.
            >
            > Tom
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            >
            > From: bartleyoreg@...
            >
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM
            >
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
            >
            >
            >
            > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
            have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point
            of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other
            people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway,
            while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of
            interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that
            race is not that important.
            >
            > Michael
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            >
            > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
            >
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
            >
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
            >
            >
            >
            > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am
            >
            > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
            >
            > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
            Jewish
            >
            > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
            >
            > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
            >
            > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
            It
            >
            > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
            >
            > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
            good
            >
            > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
            idea
            >
            > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
            >
            > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
            European
            >
            > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
            >
            > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
            >
            > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
            >
            > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
            >
            > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
            >
            > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
            issue
            >
            > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
            black,
            >
            > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
            issue
            >
            > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
            very
            >
            > strange statement.
            >
            > > Michael
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            >
            > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
            >
            > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
            >
            > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
            >
            > concept,
            >
            > > frequently used as a political weapon.
            >
            > >
            >
            > > Louise
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > >
            >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • eupraxis@aol.com
            Delectation of Independence Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time. Wil ... From: bartleyoreg@aol.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 5 Dec
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
              Delectation of Independence




              Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time.

              Wil




              -----Original Message-----
              From: bartleyoreg@...
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

























              Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting anywhere close?

              Michael



              -----Original Message-----

              From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

              Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm

              Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief



              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:

              >

              > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you

              have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your

              point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding

              other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?

              Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,

              would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our

              present world that race is not that important.

              > Michael



              Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good

              spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist

              seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such

              an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new

              members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the

              road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present

              world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a

              few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way

              all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society

              if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could

              flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of

              the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate

              embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the

              police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts

              of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would

              soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise



              >

              >

              > -----Original Message-----

              > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

              > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

              > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I

              am

              > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

              > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal

              Jewish

              > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

              > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

              > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.

              It

              > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

              > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a

              good

              > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

              > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit

              > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on

              European

              > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

              > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

              > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

              > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

              > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

              >

              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:

              > >

              > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

              > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical

              issue

              > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie

              black,

              > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical

              issue

              > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a

              very

              > strange statement.

              > > Michael

              > >

              > >

              > > -----Original Message-----

              > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

              > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

              > > Subject: [existlist] In brief

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

              > concept,

              > > frequently used as a political weapon.

              > >

              > > Louise

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              >

              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • tom
              What I said was that there were greater probabilities of certain strenghths and weaknesses appearing among races, but that many individuals will very much
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                What I said was that there were greater probabilities of certain strenghths and weaknesses appearing among races, but that many individuals will very much overlap. Its like saying that as a group, men are taller than women. However, there are numerous women over 6 feet, and some guys around 5 feet. Jewish and oriental students are more likely to be on the honor roll. Blacks are more likely to be the winners in track and field competition, and us white guys have the highest % of serial killers.Certain diseases are more prevalent among certain races.
                Tom
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: bhvwd
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:31 PM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief


                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a
                person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or
                more prone to crime than a person from another race.
                >
                > Tom,
                >
                > What race(s) would be dull-witted, lazy and felonious, pray tell?
                Shall we measure cranial widths and bumps as well?
                >
                > Wil
                > Ah Phrenology. I kept a head on my desk for several years. When I
                was tempted to digress from rational treatment I could always look
                at that perfect head. It was all wrong but it looked good. Bill
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 4:45 pm
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Michael,
                >
                >
                >
                > I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is
                more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the
                reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people
                have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in,
                their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the
                diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental
                characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but
                there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an
                individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a
                greater probability of a person of a given race being more
                intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person
                from another race.
                >
                > Tom
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                >
                > From: bartleyoreg@...
                >
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM
                >
                > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
                >
                >
                >
                > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
                have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point
                of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other
                people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway,
                while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of
                interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that
                race is not that important.
                >
                > Michael
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                >
                > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                >
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
                >
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                >
                >
                >
                > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am
                >
                > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
                >
                > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
                Jewish
                >
                > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
                >
                > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
                >
                > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
                It
                >
                > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
                >
                > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
                good
                >
                > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
                idea
                >
                > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
                >
                > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
                European
                >
                > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
                >
                > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
                >
                > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
                >
                > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
                >
                > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
                >
                > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
                issue
                >
                > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
                black,
                >
                > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
                issue
                >
                > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
                very
                >
                > strange statement.
                >
                > > Michael
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                >
                > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                >
                > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
                >
                > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
                >
                > concept,
                >
                > > frequently used as a political weapon.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Louise
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • tom
                I m very much a fan of the Declaration of Independance also. Of course, the point of newspeak George Orwell made was how beautiful words can still be
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                  I'm very much a fan of the Declaration of Independance also. Of course, the point of 'newspeak' George Orwell made was how beautiful words can still be admired, while the practical aplication of such statement can gradually be changed. The very Americans who talk the most about our heritage, freedom etc are very often the ones that in reality promote agendas like getting in fights around the world and building a massive police state at home; and these were the things that guys like Washington and Jefferson saw as totally opposed to the new vision on which the US was founded. Shaun Hannity starts his radio show with "Let Freedom Ring" and has "Freedom Concerts", but his idea of freedom goes no further than going to the Judeochristian church of your choice, and investing in the 401k of your choice. Yesterday, Hannity had Bill Bennett as 1 of his guests, and Bennett was Drug Czar under Bush1. Freedom is used by these guys as another excuse for imperialistic aggression.

                  Tom



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: bartleyoreg@...
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:03 PM
                  Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief


                  Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting anywhere close?
                  Michael

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
                  have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
                  point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
                  other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?
                  Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
                  would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
                  present world that race is not that important.
                  > Michael

                  Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
                  spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
                  seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such
                  an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
                  members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the
                  road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
                  world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a
                  few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
                  all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society
                  if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could
                  flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of
                  the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
                  embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
                  police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts
                  of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
                  soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I
                  am
                  > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
                  > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
                  Jewish
                  > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
                  > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
                  > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
                  It
                  > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
                  > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
                  good
                  > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
                  > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
                  > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
                  European
                  > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
                  > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
                  > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
                  > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
                  > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
                  > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
                  issue
                  > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
                  black,
                  > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
                  issue
                  > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
                  very
                  > strange statement.
                  > > Michael
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
                  > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
                  > concept,
                  > > frequently used as a political weapon.
                  > >
                  > > Louise
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • bartleyoreg@aol.com
                  opps! I knew I should have used the dictionary! In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:43:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eupraxis@aol.com writes: Delectation of
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                    opps! I knew I should have used the dictionary!


                    In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:43:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                    eupraxis@... writes:







                    Delectation of Independence

                    Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time.

                    Wil

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: _bartleyoreg@bartley_ (mailto:bartleyoreg@...)
                    To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)
                    Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

                    Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old,
                    anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the
                    Delectation of Independence.Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school,
                    there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we
                    are studying the Delectation of Independence.<WBR>? I get very excited about
                    this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be
                    agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the
                    last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those
                    values, while

                    Michael

                    -----Original Message-----

                    From: louise <_hecubatoher@hecubatohhe_ (mailto:hecubatoher@...) >

                    To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                    Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm

                    Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                    --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                    bartleyoreg@, bart

                    >

                    > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you

                    have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your

                    point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding

                    other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?

                    Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,

                    would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our

                    present world that race is not that important.

                    > Michael

                    Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good

                    spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at

                    seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such

                    an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new

                    members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the

                    road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present

                    world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a

                    few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way

                    all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society

                    if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could

                    flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of

                    the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate

                    embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the

                    police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts

                    of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would

                    soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

                    >

                    >

                    > -----Original Message-----

                    > From: louise <hecubatoher@hec>

                    > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                    > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I

                    am

                    > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

                    > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal

                    Jewish

                    > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

                    > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

                    > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.

                    It

                    > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

                    > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a

                    good

                    > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

                    > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic' is religious. Th

                    > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on

                    European

                    > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

                    > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

                    > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

                    > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

                    > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

                    >

                    > --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                    bartleyoreg@ wrote:

                    > >

                    > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

                    > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical

                    issue

                    > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie

                    black,

                    > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical

                    issue

                    > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a

                    very

                    > strange statement.

                    > > Michael

                    > >

                    > >

                    > > -----Original Message-----

                    > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                    > > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                    > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

                    > > Subject: [existlist] In brief

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

                    > concept,

                    > > frequently used as a political weapon.

                    > >

                    > > Louise

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    > >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
                    favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eupraxis@aol.com
                    Tom, Well, I understand the save, but this is all still prejudice, in my opinion, if you are explaining such differences (even if they were accurate) as caused
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                      Tom,

                      Well, I understand the save, but this is all still prejudice, in my opinion,
                      if you are explaining such differences (even if they were accurate) as caused
                      by a "race" factor. Second and third generation Asians do not show any marked
                      difference with the student population as a whole, leading one to assume that
                      there is a cultural/'nurture' factor at work here. 'Blacks', qua Black, "are
                      not likely to be the winners in track and field competition"; tall, long-legged
                      people are. See Aristotle on attribution of cause.

                      Mutatis mutandis.

                      In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately being
                      difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is with the actual
                      concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the delicate matter of the 'ism' of
                      race. Using race as a thing-unto-itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural
                      difference in the great chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist
                      act, regardless of whether this is done as it were benignly.

                      Let us not forget, this topic has been broached here alongside such other
                      questions as racial identity as patriotism, ethnic cleansing, forced mono-ethnic
                      societies, and the so forth. The 'bad others', so far, seem to have been South
                      Asians and Near Asians. What talents/stigmata do they have? Good at school,
                      but bad fashion sense?

                      I do not attribute any of this to you, of course. I try not to attribute any
                      of this to Louise, either, since I believe that she is mistaken and not
                      malevolent. I live in the deep South, USA. My patience for these has long ago been
                      tapped out.

                      Wil

                      In a message dated 12/5/08 7:02:24 PM, tsmith17_midsouth1@... writes:

                      > What I said was that there were greater probabilities of certain strenghths
                      > and weaknesses appearing among races, but that many individuals will very
                      > much overlap. Its like saying that as a group, men are taller than women.
                      > However, there are numerous women over 6 feet, and some guys around 5 feet. Jewish
                      > and oriental students are more likely to be on the honor roll. Blacks are
                      > more likely to be the winners in track and field competition, and us white guys
                      > have the highest % of serial killers.Certain diseases are more prevalent
                      > among certain races.
                      > Tom
                      >
                      >
                      >




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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • bhvwd
                      ... course, the point of newspeak George Orwell made was how beautiful words can still be admired, while the practical aplication of such statement can
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I'm very much a fan of the Declaration of Independance also. Of
                        course, the point of 'newspeak' George Orwell made was how beautiful
                        words can still be admired, while the practical aplication of such
                        statement can gradually be changed. The very Americans who talk the
                        most about our heritage, freedom etc are very often the ones that in
                        reality promote agendas like getting in fights around the world and
                        building a massive police state at home; and these were the things
                        that guys like Washington and Jefferson saw as totally opposed to the
                        new vision on which the US was founded. Shaun Hannity starts his
                        radio show with "Let Freedom Ring" and has "Freedom Concerts", but
                        his idea of freedom goes no further than going to the Judeochristian
                        church of your choice, and investing in the 401k of your choice.
                        Yesterday, Hannity had Bill Bennett as 1 of his guests, and Bennett
                        was Drug Czar under Bush1. Freedom is used by these guys as another
                        excuse for imperialistic aggression.
                        > Tom I have hope for you , even if you lapse into self absorption
                        and putrid rhetoric. Please continue to expunge and we will happily
                        accomidate your demise. I write my sort of immersables and report
                        that the better men I have known have hung their butts out. Imagine
                        the courage of exclamination, get the point!Bill
                        > Tom
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: bartleyoreg@...
                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:03 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
                        >
                        >
                        > Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14
                        years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we
                        are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited
                        about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe
                        it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any
                        other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an
                        American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to
                        them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That
                        part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting
                        anywhere close?
                        > Michael
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm
                        > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                        >
                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that
                        you
                        > have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
                        > point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
                        > other people posting then having or winning an agrument with
                        them.?
                        > Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
                        > would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
                        > present world that race is not that important.
                        > > Michael
                        >
                        > Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
                        > spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
                        > seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of
                        such
                        > an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
                        > members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating
                        the
                        > road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
                        > world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for
                        a
                        > few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
                        > all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of
                        society
                        > if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race
                        could
                        > flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention
                        of
                        > the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
                        > embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
                        > police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive
                        outbursts
                        > of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
                        > soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect.
                        Louise
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
                        > > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point
                        I
                        > am
                        > > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic,
                        and
                        > > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
                        > Jewish
                        > > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
                        > > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of
                        other
                        > > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their
                        interests.
                        > It
                        > > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
                        > > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
                        > good
                        > > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
                        idea
                        > > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to
                        inhibit
                        > > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
                        > European
                        > > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
                        > > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and
                        war.
                        > > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is
                        better
                        > > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
                        > > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
                        > >
                        > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part
                        of
                        > > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
                        > issue
                        > > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
                        > black,
                        > > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
                        > issue
                        > > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
                        > very
                        > > strange statement.
                        > > > Michael
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                        > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
                        > > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
                        > > concept,
                        > > > frequently used as a political weapon.
                        > > >
                        > > > Louise
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Paul Jacobson
                        Actually one could argue that the Declaration Of Independence was indeed Delectable ........ PJ ... From: bartleyoreg@aol.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                          Actually one could argue that the Declaration Of Independence was indeed "Delectable"........
                          PJ

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: bartleyoreg@...
                          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:30 PM
                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief


                          opps! I knew I should have used the dictionary!


                          In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:43:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                          eupraxis@... writes:

                          Delectation of Independence

                          Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time.

                          Wil

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: _bartleyoreg@bartley_ (mailto:bartleyoreg@...)
                          To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)
                          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

                          Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old,
                          anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the
                          Delectation of Independence.Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school,
                          there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we
                          are studying the Delectation of Independence.<WBR>? I get very excited about
                          this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be
                          agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the
                          last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those
                          values, while

                          Michael

                          -----Original Message-----

                          From: louise <_hecubatoher@hecubatohhe_ (mailto:hecubatoher@...) >

                          To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm

                          Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                          --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                          bartleyoreg@, bart

                          >

                          > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you

                          have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your

                          point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding

                          other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?

                          Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,

                          would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our

                          present world that race is not that important.

                          > Michael

                          Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good

                          spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at

                          seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such

                          an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new

                          members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the

                          road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present

                          world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a

                          few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way

                          all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society

                          if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could

                          flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of

                          the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate

                          embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the

                          police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts

                          of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would

                          soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

                          >

                          >

                          > -----Original Message-----

                          > From: louise <hecubatoher@hec>

                          > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                          > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

                          > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I

                          am

                          > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

                          > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal

                          Jewish

                          > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

                          > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

                          > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.

                          It

                          > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

                          > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a

                          good

                          > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

                          > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic' is religious. Th

                          > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on

                          European

                          > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

                          > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

                          > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

                          > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

                          > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

                          >

                          > --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                          bartleyoreg@ wrote:

                          > >

                          > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

                          > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical

                          issue

                          > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie

                          black,

                          > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical

                          issue

                          > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a

                          very

                          > strange statement.

                          > > Michael

                          > >

                          > >

                          > > -----Original Message-----

                          > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                          > > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                          > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

                          > > Subject: [existlist] In brief

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

                          > concept,

                          > > frequently used as a political weapon.

                          > >

                          > > Louise

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          > >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                        • jimstuart51
                          All, I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject matter. One central issue is
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                            All,

                            I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and
                            constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject
                            matter.

                            One central issue is the question of whether to engage in a
                            philosophical discussion of racism, assuming the concept of race to
                            be a valid concept, is itself to fall into racist attitudes. Thus Wil
                            writes:

                            "In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately
                            being difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is
                            with the actual concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the
                            delicate matter of the 'ism' of race. Using race as a thing-unto-
                            itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural difference in the great
                            chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist act, regardless
                            of whether this is done as it were benignly." (45883)

                            As against this, Louise calls for philosophers to accept the concept
                            of race as valid and to address this matter more thoroughly than
                            before:

                            "Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way all the
                            time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society if this
                            were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could flourish,
                            instead of the current situation, in which the mention of the topic
                            in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate embarrassment or
                            hostility. And may readily lead straight to the police cell, and the
                            courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts of those with little
                            to say that stands up to any scrutiny would soon be eclipsed, if
                            serious people were shown due respect." (45874)

                            I think both these view can be accommodated if the philosophical
                            discussion centres on the question whether or not the concept of race
                            is a valid concept.

                            On one side, the more scientifically-orientated philosophers may
                            argue that race is a `natural kind' term which can be used to pick
                            out, in an objective way, individuals who fall under one or other
                            racial category.

                            On the other side, the more subjectively-orientated philosophers may
                            argue that the whole idea of a natural-kind concept is dubious. They
                            would argue that the concepts we use answer to our interests, and if
                            we view a conceptual distinction as not being in our interests than
                            that distinction is to be rejected as invalid.

                            Nietzsche argued for this latter view when pouring score on those
                            ascetic individuals who put a disinterested `will to truth' above all
                            else. He views such individuals as weak and `anti-life'. Of course
                            the irony here is that the concept of race was one which featured in
                            Nietzsche's writings. Whilst I would not consider Nietzsche a racist,
                            he seems to come out as a `benign racist' according to Wil's
                            criterion, as he seems to accept the validity of the concept of race.

                            Another irony is that for Louise, she wishes the concept of race to
                            be discussed for cultural reasons. She is concerned that the British
                            white culture is not allowed to die out. Leftists and liberals are
                            often keen to defend the rights of minority cultures to survive
                            untainted by Western imperialism and capitalism. Western liberals
                            like myself feel that the native Indians of America and the
                            Aborigines of Australia have a right to protect their own culture
                            from extinction, but we feel uneasy when white British people argue
                            for the same right of protection.

                            I have some sympathy for those traditional cultures who do not wish
                            to be subsumed by Western capitalism. I don't want a MacDonalds in
                            every primitive village, or the top television companies beaming out
                            their lies from a television in every public meeting place.

                            On the other hand wishing to preserve one's own culture or race in
                            some sort of `pure' form makes me very uneasy as well.

                            Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                            people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                            Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                            another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                            of their opponent race as not fully human – not even human at all. In
                            fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                            brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                            just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                            2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                            well.)

                            The way forward, in my view, if for the philosopher to argue that all
                            human beings – whatever their racial or cultural background – are
                            fully human, and, as such, are equally valuable in themselves, and,
                            because of this, deserve to be treated with benevolence and respect,
                            as `ends in themselves, and never as means'. Kant argued for this
                            view in theory, but I gather that in practice he was not quite able
                            to see some foreigners as fully human.

                            Jim
                          • tom
                            Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal. Those cases where one
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                              Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                              people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                              Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                              another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                              of their opponent race as not fully human - not even human at all. In
                              fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                              brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                              just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                              2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                              well.)Jim

                              I read a Tolstoy quote once saying that as long as we have slaughter houses we'll have front lines. The hunting gatherring party, the first social group was bounded as to everything outside of us is game.Making a blood sacrafice to the tribal God. Tribal people r so much more closely connected with each other than we. Civiliozed people lack the same unity that tribals share. However, the very closeness with each other as compared to civilized cats is matched by the willingness to align wit the emerging value
                              Tom.

                              Tom
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: jimstuart51
                              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:07 AM
                              Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief


                              All,

                              I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and
                              constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject
                              matter.

                              One central issue is the question of whether to engage in a
                              philosophical discussion of racism, assuming the concept of race to
                              be a valid concept, is itself to fall into racist attitudes. Thus Wil
                              writes:

                              "In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately
                              being difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is
                              with the actual concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the
                              delicate matter of the 'ism' of race. Using race as a thing-unto-
                              itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural difference in the great
                              chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist act, regardless
                              of whether this is done as it were benignly." (45883)

                              As against this, Louise calls for philosophers to accept the concept
                              of race as valid and to address this matter more thoroughly than
                              before:

                              "Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way all the
                              time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society if this
                              were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could flourish,
                              instead of the current situation, in which the mention of the topic
                              in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate embarrassment or
                              hostility. And may readily lead straight to the police cell, and the
                              courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts of those with little
                              to say that stands up to any scrutiny would soon be eclipsed, if
                              serious people were shown due respect." (45874)

                              I think both these view can be accommodated if the philosophical
                              discussion centres on the question whether or not the concept of race
                              is a valid concept.

                              On one side, the more scientifically-orientated philosophers may
                              argue that race is a `natural kind' term which can be used to pick
                              out, in an objective way, individuals who fall under one or other
                              racial category.

                              On the other side, the more subjectively-orientated philosophers may
                              argue that the whole idea of a natural-kind concept is dubious. They
                              would argue that the concepts we use answer to our interests, and if
                              we view a conceptual distinction as not being in our interests than
                              that distinction is to be rejected as invalid.

                              Nietzsche argued for this latter view when pouring score on those
                              ascetic individuals who put a disinterested `will to truth' above all
                              else. He views such individuals as weak and `anti-life'. Of course
                              the irony here is that the concept of race was one which featured in
                              Nietzsche's writings. Whilst I would not consider Nietzsche a racist,
                              he seems to come out as a `benign racist' according to Wil's
                              criterion, as he seems to accept the validity of the concept of race.

                              Another irony is that for Louise, she wishes the concept of race to
                              be discussed for cultural reasons. She is concerned that the British
                              white culture is not allowed to die out. Leftists and liberals are
                              often keen to defend the rights of minority cultures to survive
                              untainted by Western imperialism and capitalism. Western liberals
                              like myself feel that the native Indians of America and the
                              Aborigines of Australia have a right to protect their own culture
                              from extinction, but we feel uneasy when white British people argue
                              for the same right of protection.

                              I have some sympathy for those traditional cultures who do not wish
                              to be subsumed by Western capitalism. I don't want a MacDonalds in
                              every primitive village, or the top television companies beaming out
                              their lies from a television in every public meeting place.

                              On the other hand wishing to preserve one's own culture or race in
                              some sort of `pure' form makes me very uneasy as well.

                              Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                              people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                              Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                              another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                              of their opponent race as not fully human - not even human at all. In
                              fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                              brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                              just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                              2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                              well.)

                              The way forward, in my view, if for the philosopher to argue that all
                              human beings - whatever their racial or cultural background - are
                              fully human, and, as such, are equally valuable in themselves, and,
                              because of this, deserve to be treated with benevolence and respect,
                              as `ends in themselves, and never as means'. Kant argued for this
                              view in theory, but I gather that in practice he was not quite able
                              to see some foreigners as fully human.

                              Jim





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • eupraxis@aol.com
                              Jim, Thanks for the post. Many writers before the last Century, with all of its horrors and the hindsight gleaned from them, have used the concept of race in
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                                Jim,

                                Thanks for the post.

                                Many writers before the last Century, with all of its horrors and the
                                hindsight gleaned from them, have used the concept of race in one way or another.
                                Kant says some very terrible things about black Africans; Engels writes about the
                                small brains of American aboriginals; Nietzsche talks about the hot Latin
                                races, and so on. These statements are not part of a formal theory, but were
                                rather part and parcel of a naive prejudice held by the mainstream in the West
                                that were never examined thoroughly. Since the advent of Nazism and other overt
                                racist movements, the concept of race has been examined in all relevant fields,
                                including recently in the genetic sciences. The conclusion wrought from all
                                of these fields is that "race" is a street notion, an intellectual slang with
                                no formal veracity, a way to group family resemblances but not to associate
                                anything otherwise unusually innate to them vis-a-vis others, other than a
                                propensity to have gas after eating cheese or to develop a rare kind of anemia, etc.


                                Thus race is a term the importance of which is only to be gleaned from its
                                context, especially in writings since the 19th Century. I prefer never to use
                                it, except for phrases like "human race" and the like.

                                If we look at a writer like Spengler, whom I admire, we see how he developed
                                a very sophisticated way of understanding race as a trans-morphic secondary
                                characteristic of 'man'. If one takes a look at his monumental "Decline of the
                                West", you will see how he understands race as something that changes over
                                time. Humanity is thoroughly 'plastic' for Spengler. He contended against the
                                notion of racial superiority.

                                Even Nietzsche, whose remarks are nearly always more 'rhetorical' than
                                formal, anyway, associates the behavior of 'races' with their culinary practices and
                                weather, rather than with some virtually occult 'essence'. Perhaps those who
                                eat too many sausages have a different mood than those who eat a 'Continental
                                breakfast'? Dunno...

                                I have always found it remarkable how racists here in the US have warned
                                against the polluting of American culture by "blacks", when the obvious fact of
                                the matter is that American culture is totally infused with black culture, and
                                always has been since there was a discernible American culture in the first
                                place! While I understand the fear of a MacDonalds being on every street corner
                                of London, it is nevertheless the case that American culture (R&B, blues, rock
                                and roll, etc.) has already so affected British popular culture as to be, by
                                now, indissociable from it. For many years, there were more white Brit kids
                                from Liverpool listening to recordings of Albert King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy
                                Waters than kids from Long Island, where I grew up.

                                In any case, you offer us two basic alternatives: either to argue about race
                                from within its own controversy (what is race, is there race?), or to argue
                                about race from the oblique position of ethics and politics, if we assume, as a
                                prior condition, that all persons deserve respect. I, for one. would welcome
                                either, as I have no doubt that the conclusions of both would lead in a
                                parallel direction.

                                Wil



                                In a message dated 12/7/08 8:09:36 AM, jjimstuart1@... writes:


                                > All,
                                >
                                > I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and
                                > constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject
                                > matter.
                                >
                                > One central issue is the question of whether to engage in a
                                > philosophical discussion of racism, assuming the concept of race to
                                > be a valid concept, is itself to fall into racist attitudes. Thus Wil
                                > writes:
                                >
                                > "In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately
                                > being difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is
                                > with the actual concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the
                                > delicate matter of the 'ism' of race. Using race as a thing-unto-
                                > itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural difference in the great
                                > chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist act, regardless
                                > of whether this is done as it were benignly." (45883)
                                >
                                > As against this, Louise calls for philosophers to accept the concept
                                > of race as valid and to address this matter more thoroughly than
                                > before:
                                >
                                > "Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way all the
                                > time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society if this
                                > were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could flourish,
                                > instead of the current situation, in which the mention of the topic
                                > in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate embarrassment or
                                > hostility. And may readily lead straight to the police cell, and the
                                > courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts of those with little
                                > to say that stands up to any scrutiny would soon be eclipsed, if
                                > serious people were shown due respect." (45874)
                                >
                                > I think both these view can be accommodated if the philosophical
                                > discussion centres on the question whether or not the concept of race
                                > is a valid concept.
                                >
                                > On one side, the more scientifically- On one side, the more scien
                                > argue that race is a `natural kind' term which can be used to pick
                                > out, in an objective way, individuals who fall under one or other
                                > racial category.
                                >
                                > On the other side, the more subjectively- On the other side, the more
                                > argue that the whole idea of a natural-kind concept is dubious. They
                                > would argue that the concepts we use answer to our interests, and if
                                > we view a conceptual distinction as not being in our interests than
                                > that distinction is to be rejected as invalid.
                                >
                                > Nietzsche argued for this latter view when pouring score on those
                                > ascetic individuals who put a disinterested `will to truth' above all
                                > else. He views such individuals as weak and `anti-life'. Of course
                                > the irony here is that the concept of race was one which featured in
                                > Nietzsche's writings. Whilst I would not consider Nietzsche a racist,
                                > he seems to come out as a `benign racist' according to Wil's
                                > criterion, as he seems to accept the validity of the concept of race.
                                >
                                > Another irony is that for Louise, she wishes the concept of race to
                                > be discussed for cultural reasons. She is concerned that the British
                                > white culture is not allowed to die out. Leftists and liberals are
                                > often keen to defend the rights of minority cultures to survive
                                > untainted by Western imperialism and capitalism. Western liberals
                                > like myself feel that the native Indians of America and the
                                > Aborigines of Australia have a right to protect their own culture
                                > from extinction, but we feel uneasy when white British people argue
                                > for the same right of protection.
                                >
                                > I have some sympathy for those traditional cultures who do not wish
                                > to be subsumed by Western capitalism. I don't want a MacDonalds in
                                > every primitive village, or the top television companies beaming out
                                > their lies from a television in every public meeting place.
                                >
                                > On the other hand wishing to preserve one's own culture or race in
                                > some sort of `pure' form makes me very uneasy as well.
                                >
                                > Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                                > people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                                > Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                                > another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                                > of their opponent race as not fully human – not even human at all. In
                                > fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                                > brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                                > just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                                > 2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                                > well.)
                                >
                                > The way forward, in my view, if for the philosopher to argue that all
                                > human beings – whatever their racial or cultural background – are
                                > fully human, and, as such, are equally valuable in themselves, and,
                                > because of this, deserve to be treated with benevolence and respect,
                                > as `ends in themselves, and never as means'. Kant argued for this
                                > view in theory, but I gather that in practice he was not quite able
                                > to see some foreigners as fully human.
                                >
                                > Jim
                                >
                                >
                                >




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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • jimstuart51
                                Wil, Thanks for your post – I find myself in agreement with just about everything you have written on this subject. I ll just comment specifically on this
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                                  Wil,

                                  Thanks for your post – I find myself in agreement with just about
                                  everything you have written on this subject.

                                  I'll just comment specifically on this section from your post:

                                  "While I understand the fear of a MacDonalds being on every street
                                  corner of London, it is nevertheless the case that American culture
                                  (R&B, blues, rock and roll, etc.) has already so affected British
                                  popular culture as to be, by now, indissociable from it. For many
                                  years, there were more white Brit kids from Liverpool listening to
                                  recordings of Albert King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy Waters than kids
                                  from Long Island, where I grew up."

                                  I, myself, am not too concerned about American culture dominating
                                  over here. I consider myself rather a `counter-culture' person
                                  anyway, quite happy to embrace things which are often explicitly
                                  reactions against the mainstream culture, whether British or American.

                                  More than anything else, I consider myself to be a European rather
                                  than English or British. I see myself as part of the intellectual
                                  culture of Europe which started with the Ancient Greeks, then moved
                                  to the Romans, and more than anything else I see myself as a product
                                  of the Enlightenment.

                                  I found myself feeling a sense of pride when I read Zizek writing:

                                  "What makes modern Europe unique is that it is the first and only
                                  civilisation in which atheism is a fully legitimate option, not an
                                  obstacle to any public post. This is most emphatically a European
                                  legacy worth fighting for. (Violence, p. 118)

                                  I suppose I also feel myself to be a continuation of a tradition of
                                  English radicalism which embraced such groups as the Quakers, the
                                  Chartists and the early trade unionists.

                                  Referring to myself as European tends to annoy British/English
                                  nationalists and patriots. However they themselves seem to be on
                                  tricky ground when asked if they are primarily English or British.

                                  I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British' and
                                  sometimes as `English'. This is only likely to annoy anybody who is
                                  Scottish or Welsh. As you know, England has conquered both Wales and
                                  Scotland at some time or other, and today there are many Welsh and
                                  Scottish nationalists who wish to defend their Welsh and Scottish
                                  culture from the English imperialists.

                                  Sometimes these Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk of the English
                                  as a different race!

                                  Finally, moving from culture back to race, I can honestly say that to
                                  me race is a total non-issue. I see people as human beings primarily
                                  and hardly notice the colour of their skin. Just as I would be
                                  perfectly happy for my children to be gay, I would be perfectly happy
                                  for them to have loving relationships with individuals from different
                                  racial and cultural backgrounds.

                                  Perhaps it could be argued that I am so unconcerned about cultural
                                  and racial only because I have never suffered at the hands of a
                                  stronger cultural or racial aggressor. Certainly being male, white,
                                  heterosexual, middle class and European, I acknowledge that I am
                                  probably not the best person to talk on the subject of the oppression
                                  of minorities.

                                  Jim
                                • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                                  ... not really interested in race issues, as i don t see how anyone actually conversant with modern genetic DNA research can be a racist. racism is outdated
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                                    > most
                                    > people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                                    > Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                                    > another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                                    > of their opponent race as not fully human – not even human at all.
                                    > Jim

                                    not really interested in race issues, as i don't see how anyone actually
                                    conversant with modern genetic DNA research can be a racist. racism is
                                    outdated bad science and the cumulative result of colonialist thought
                                    (maybe also a specialized result of elitist or wanna-be ruling class
                                    thinking).

                                    i don't see racism as necessarily connected to nationalism at all.
                                    nationalism, as most things, may be either destructive and hateful of
                                    others or a positive unifying force which respects the positive
                                    nationalism of others.

                                    i don't think racism has been either a primary or universal frame of
                                    reference in relation to the other, as there is ample evidence for
                                    non-racist contact among archaic populations in low population density
                                    areas.

                                    first of all racism involves a belief in father-right and sexual purity,
                                    but humans are just as related to the bonobo (whose society is not based
                                    on "sexual selection") as to the larger chimpanzee. there are
                                    populations, as in pre-Christian northern Eurasia, where sexual purity
                                    was not necessarily demanded of females, and father right is not
                                    necessarily primary. in low population density areas the primary
                                    consideration is likely to be female fertility as a value rather than
                                    virginity, and children are going to be valued as valuable additions to
                                    the group as long as they contribute and support group norms. native
                                    Americans for example kidnapped also white children when there were not
                                    enough in the tribe.

                                    here's an interesting article that speaks of current attitudes as
                                    deriving from earlier pagan views:
                                    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/18/iceland

                                    northeastern Europe is a good example of genetic diversity going back to
                                    the aboriginal populations, which for the sake of simplicity may be seen
                                    as for the first thousands of years as Finnic, Baltic, and Scandinavian
                                    - each of them with complex timespace diverse subgroup developments.
                                    there are graves of spouses of different genetic type backgrounds. even
                                    in the 9th - 12th c. alliances were not made on the basis of race. thus
                                    the (Baltic Finnic) Livs might ally themselves with a (Indo-Euroean
                                    speaking) Balt tribe against an (Baltic Finnic) Estonian tribe or
                                    another Balt tribe, but in the next round might find themselves
                                    switching alliances.

                                    organized military aggression in northeastern Europe is introduced by
                                    Indo-European military raider bands, of whom the Scandinavian Vikings
                                    are best known. the Sami of northern Europe, an archaic Europoid
                                    population with both "western" and "eastern" genetics (true also of the
                                    East Baltic), were unprepared for the aggression of the Iron Age on
                                    warrior culture marauder raiders resulting in folklore about the
                                    "Tchudes" as portrayed in the Sami Norvegian film "Pathfinder" (1987).
                                    if sometimes the portrayal of Tchudes comes close to the portrayal of
                                    cannibalistic ogres "stallu" that does not have to be taken as evidence
                                    of innate racism. aggression, rather than race, is the primary reason
                                    for characterizing the raiders as not human. friendly contacts with
                                    anthropomorphically dissimilar groups does not seem to result in racism.

                                    in short, i think even to modern times aggression against a particular
                                    population is much more fundamentally political in the E. Baltic area,
                                    rather than intrinsically racially motivated. both the Finnish and
                                    Latvian peoples in particular had tragic civil war political types of
                                    conflicts dividing primarily brother against brother as defender of
                                    either the so-called "reds" or "whites." i think Finland is an
                                    excellent example of a country that in recent times has fully come to
                                    terms with its history (that is how it was, and those were the factors
                                    from a systems point of view) and in research seems to welcome all new
                                    evidence without feeling its core threatened, resulting in a much more
                                    integrated population.

                                    aija
                                  • eupraxis@aol.com
                                    Jim, Thanks. Again, I am in agreement with your basic enframing of the topic. Wil ... ************** Stay in touch with ALL of your friends: update your AIM,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                                      Jim,

                                      Thanks. Again, I am in agreement with your basic enframing of the topic.

                                      Wil

                                      In a message dated 12/7/08 11:21:06 AM, jjimstuart1@... writes:


                                      > Wil,
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for your post – I find myself in agreement with just about
                                      > everything you have written on this subject.
                                      >
                                      > I'll just comment specifically on this section from your post:
                                      >
                                      > "While I understand the fear of a MacDonalds being on every street
                                      > corner of London, it is nevertheless the case that American culture
                                      > (R&B, blues, rock and roll, etc.) has already so affected British
                                      > popular culture as to be, by now, indissociable from it. For many
                                      > years, there were more white Brit kids from Liverpool listening to
                                      > recordings of Albert King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy Waters than kids
                                      > from Long Island, where I grew up."
                                      >
                                      > I, myself, am not too concerned about American culture dominating
                                      > over here. I consider myself rather a `counter-culture' person
                                      > anyway, quite happy to embrace things which are often explicitly
                                      > reactions against the mainstream culture, whether British or American.
                                      >
                                      > More than anything else, I consider myself to be a European rather
                                      > than English or British. I see myself as part of the intellectual
                                      > culture of Europe which started with the Ancient Greeks, then moved
                                      > to the Romans, and more than anything else I see myself as a product
                                      > of the Enlightenment.
                                      >
                                      > I found myself feeling a sense of pride when I read Zizek writing:
                                      >
                                      > "What makes modern Europe unique is that it is the first and only
                                      > civilisation in which atheism is a fully legitimate option, not an
                                      > obstacle to any public post. This is most emphatically a European
                                      > legacy worth fighting for. (Violence, p. 118)
                                      >
                                      > I suppose I also feel myself to be a continuation of a tradition of
                                      > English radicalism which embraced such groups as the Quakers, the
                                      > Chartists and the early trade unionists.
                                      >
                                      > Referring to myself as European tends to annoy British/English
                                      > nationalists and patriots. However they themselves seem to be on
                                      > tricky ground when asked if they are primarily English or British.
                                      >
                                      > I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British' and
                                      > sometimes as `English'. This is only likely to annoy anybody who is
                                      > Scottish or Welsh. As you know, England has conquered both Wales and
                                      > Scotland at some time or other, and today there are many Welsh and
                                      > Scottish nationalists who wish to defend their Welsh and Scottish
                                      > culture from the English imperialists.
                                      >
                                      > Sometimes these Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk of the English
                                      > as a different race!
                                      >
                                      > Finally, moving from culture back to race, I can honestly say that to
                                      > me race is a total non-issue. I see people as human beings primarily
                                      > and hardly notice the colour of their skin. Just as I would be
                                      > perfectly happy for my children to be gay, I would be perfectly happy
                                      > for them to have loving relationships with individuals from different
                                      > racial and cultural backgrounds.
                                      >
                                      > Perhaps it could be argued that I am so unconcerned about cultural
                                      > and racial only because I have never suffered at the hands of a
                                      > stronger cultural or racial aggressor. Certainly being male, white,
                                      > heterosexual, middle class and European, I acknowledge that I am
                                      > probably not the best person to talk on the subject of the oppression
                                      > of minorities.
                                      >
                                      > Jim
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >




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                                    • louise
                                      ... Tom, No, actually, I am arguing that before one proceeds to question whether there are measurable differences between races, one should ascertain the
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                                        > people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.

                                        Tom,

                                        No, actually, I am arguing that before one proceeds to question whether
                                        there are measurable differences between races, one should ascertain
                                        the meaning of human equality. It is a spiritual or philosophical
                                        reality, not necessarily a scientific one. The divorce of science from
                                        a feeling for the sacredness of life is at the root of our modern
                                        malaise. A sweepingly general statement, but reasonable, I think.

                                        Louise
                                      • louise
                                        Jim: I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British and sometimes as `English . This is only likely to annoy anybody who is Scottish or Welsh. As
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                                          Jim: "I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British' and
                                          sometimes as `English'. This is only likely to annoy anybody who is
                                          Scottish or Welsh. As you know, England has conquered both Wales and
                                          Scotland at some time or other, and today there are many Welsh and
                                          Scottish nationalists who wish to defend their Welsh and Scottish
                                          culture from the English imperialists.
                                          Sometimes these Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk of the English
                                          as a different race!"

                                          Welsh and Scottish nationalists who are annoyed by my description of
                                          myself as either British or English would be most untypical, surely,
                                          since I am obviously both, and legitimately so. Of course they are
                                          likely to be annoyed when Britain and England are named as though
                                          interchangeable, for this shows disrespect to the Scots and Welsh (as
                                          ignoring their existence) and to many Northern Irish folk who value
                                          their British nationality. There is a difference between a human
                                          being and a nation! I myself find it irritating or embarrassing when
                                          no distinction is made between the two. As for being different
                                          races, well, that might be an interesting discussion. The tribal
                                          origins of the various people who have inhabited the British isles
                                          both before and after the Norman conquest is a complex study. I am
                                          reading a book about the Vikings at the moment, and their impact on
                                          the Christian English. Fearful stuff. Louise
                                        • jimstuart51
                                          Aija, Thank you for your thoughtful and informative post. Let me comment on a couple of the sections from your post: Aija: not really interested in race
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 8, 2008
                                            Aija,

                                            Thank you for your thoughtful and informative post. Let me comment on
                                            a couple of the sections from your post:

                                            Aija: not really interested in race issues, as i don't see how anyone
                                            actually conversant with modern genetic DNA research can be a racist.
                                            racism is outdated bad science and the cumulative result of
                                            colonialist thought (maybe also a specialized result of elitist or
                                            wanna-be ruling class thinking).

                                            Jim: Racism may indeed be "outdated bad science," but there is still
                                            quite a lot of it about, particularly amongst those without a
                                            scientific education. I am only interested in racism to the extent
                                            that I think there is still work to be done, both intellectual and
                                            practical, to eliminate it.

                                            Aija: i don't see racism as necessarily connected to nationalism at
                                            all. nationalism, as most things, may be either destructive and
                                            hateful of others or a positive unifying force which respects the
                                            positive nationalism of others.

                                            Jim: It would be nice if nationalism were predominantly "a positive
                                            unifying force which respects the positive nationalism of others."
                                            However my own experience is that it is usually "destructive and
                                            hateful of others." Perhaps, if like the Finns, we can learn from
                                            history, then nationalism can be a force for good. Perhaps each of us
                                            can be proud of our nation's greatest achievements, whilst
                                            acknowledging our nation's worst behaviour (both past and present).
                                            Unfortunately the propaganda apparatus in most countries manages to
                                            portray the nation as always in the right. Further, individuals seem
                                            to have a strong subconscious desire to convince themselves that
                                            their social group (i.e. their nation) is the good guys. Also, in
                                            most countries at most times, it is considered unpatriotic to
                                            question the correctness of one's nation's foreign policy.


                                            What you write about "father right and sexual purity" is most
                                            interesting. I agree that those societies where pagan traditions
                                            dominated seem to have emerged in a more healthy state than those
                                            where Christian attitudes predominated. In Britain, Christian moral
                                            attitudes are the biggest hindrance to genuine ethical progress.


                                            Finally, the article on Iceland was interesting, although I wonder to
                                            what extent the recent catastrophic failure of the Icelandic banks
                                            will change things. Also, for a bleaker view of Iceland, I recommend
                                            the film "Jar City" (Iceland 2008 Dir Baltasar Kormakur).

                                            Jim
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