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Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

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  • bartleyoreg@aol.com
    Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point of view.? On a side note
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
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      Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that race is not that important.
      Michael


      -----Original Message-----
      From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
      Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief






      Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am
      making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
      that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal Jewish
      solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
      term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
      racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests. It
      seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
      themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a good
      deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
      is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
      free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on European
      peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
      history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
      Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
      understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
      reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
      >
      > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
      philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical issue
      or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie black,
      women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical issue
      or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a very
      strange statement.
      > Michael
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
      > Subject: [existlist] In brief
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
      concept,
      > frequently used as a political weapon.
      >
      > Louise
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • louise
      Rather depressing, Wil, that you seem to suppose my thought in this regard so crass. If racism is worth discussing, with, say, Socratic carefulness, we shall
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
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        Rather depressing, Wil, that you seem to suppose my thought in this
        regard so crass. If racism is worth discussing, with, say, Socratic
        carefulness, we shall surely find many complexities along the way.
        My own judgment and insight have proven so wayward of late that I am
        trying to proceed with caution, little by little. However, let it
        be said that I am an apologist for self-defence and self-
        determination, including national sovereignty, for instance, and
        that the controversy of racism for me only finds its true context in
        that regard. Racial kinship itself is a subjective feeling. Racism
        as a political stance is something further. The devil is in the
        detail. I am not intending to suggest that racism is a
        characteristic generally to be applied to Jews, only that their
        elites have exercised power and influence over their own communities
        and others by means of concepts borrowed from the cultures of those
        among whom they have settled. Naturally enough. It is part of the
        process of assimilation. There is still an element of war in it,
        though. War by legal means. Louise (feeling bruised both ways)

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > And let us not leave aside that remark that calling Jews racists
        would be bad because it would sully the true (and presumably 'good')
        racism of (white) Europeans.
        >
        > Wil
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 3:59 pm
        > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
        >
        > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
        European
        >
        > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
        >
        > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war
        >
        > Louise
        >
        > Louise,
        >
        > I do agree with you that using the concept of 'anti-Semitic' to
        inhibit free thought and impose self-censorship on anyone is bad. I
        am totally convinced that there was a holacoust. I have several
        friends whose fathers were part of the allied liberation of some of
        the concentration camps. However, I am also convinced the world is
        round, but would object to any law denying flat earthers their right
        to free speech.
        >
        >
        >
        > However, I believe anti -Semetism is based on resentments of Jews
        because of a combination of 3 things
        >
        > 1 They have often been shopkeepers, money lenders, lawyers etc,
        and for reasons justifiable in some cases and unjustifiable in
        others, this has often incurred working class resentment.
        >
        > 2 As a group, they tend to be more educated and intelligent,
        incurring resentment and envy, and making them more difficult to
        integrate with the national mass conciousness.
        >
        > 3 They tend to have more international sympathies, since their kin
        are more often spread out all over the world.
        >
        >
        >
        > Tom
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        > From: louise
        >
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 3:15 PM
        >
        > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
        >
        >
        >
        > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I
        am
        >
        > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
        >
        > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
        Jewish
        >
        > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
        >
        > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of
        other
        >
        > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
        It
        >
        > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
        >
        > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
        good
        >
        > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
        idea
        >
        > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to
        inhibit
        >
        > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
        European
        >
        > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
        >
        > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
        >
        > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is
        better
        >
        > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
        >
        > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
        >
        > >
        >
        > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
        >
        > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
        issue
        >
        > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
        black,
        >
        > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
        issue
        >
        > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
        very
        >
        > strange statement.
        >
        > > Michael
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        >
        > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
        >
        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
        >
        > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
        >
        > concept,
        >
        > > frequently used as a political weapon.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Louise
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • louise
        ... have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other people posting then
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
          >
          > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
          have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
          point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
          other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?
          Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
          would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
          present world that race is not that important.
          > Michael

          Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
          spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
          seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such
          an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
          members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the
          road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
          world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a
          few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
          all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society
          if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could
          flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of
          the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
          embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
          police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts
          of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
          soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
          > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I
          am
          > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
          > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
          Jewish
          > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
          > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
          > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
          It
          > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
          > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
          good
          > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
          > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
          > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
          European
          > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
          > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
          > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
          > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
          > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
          >
          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
          > >
          > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
          > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
          issue
          > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
          black,
          > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
          issue
          > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
          very
          > strange statement.
          > > Michael
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
          > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
          > concept,
          > > frequently used as a political weapon.
          > >
          > > Louise
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • tom
          Michael, I agree with you that understanding other people s point of view is more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the reality of
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Michael,

            I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in, their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person from another race.
            Tom

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: bartleyoreg@...
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief


            Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that race is not that important.
            Michael

            -----Original Message-----
            From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
            Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

            Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am
            making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
            that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal Jewish
            solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
            term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
            racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests. It
            seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
            themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a good
            deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
            is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
            free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on European
            peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
            history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
            Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
            understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
            reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
            >
            > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
            philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical issue
            or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie black,
            women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical issue
            or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a very
            strange statement.
            > Michael
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
            > Subject: [existlist] In brief
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
            concept,
            > frequently used as a political weapon.
            >
            > Louise
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • bartleyoreg@aol.com
            Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting anywhere close?
              Michael


              -----Original Message-----
              From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm
              Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief






              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
              >
              > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
              have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
              point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
              other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?
              Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
              would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
              present world that race is not that important.
              > Michael

              Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
              spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
              seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such
              an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
              members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the
              road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
              world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a
              few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
              all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society
              if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could
              flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of
              the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
              embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
              police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts
              of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
              soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I
              am
              > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
              > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
              Jewish
              > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
              > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
              > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
              It
              > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
              > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
              good
              > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
              > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
              > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
              European
              > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
              > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
              > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
              > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
              > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
              > >
              > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
              > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
              issue
              > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
              black,
              > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
              issue
              > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
              very
              > strange statement.
              > > Michael
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
              > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
              > concept,
              > > frequently used as a political weapon.
              > >
              > > Louise
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • eupraxis@aol.com
              At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person from another race.

                Tom,

                What race(s) would be dull-witted, lazy and felonious, pray tell? Shall we measure cranial widths and bumps as well?

                Wil







                -----Original Message-----
                From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 4:45 pm
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

























                Michael,



                I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in, their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person from another race.

                Tom



                ----- Original Message -----

                From: bartleyoreg@...

                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM

                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief



                Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that race is not that important.

                Michael



                -----Original Message-----

                From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

                Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief



                Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am

                making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

                that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal Jewish

                solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

                term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

                racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests. It

                seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

                themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a good

                deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

                is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit

                free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on European

                peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

                history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

                Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

                understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

                reveals the full meanings of history. Louise



                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:

                >

                > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

                philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical issue

                or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie black,

                women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical issue

                or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a very

                strange statement.

                > Michael

                >

                >

                > -----Original Message-----

                > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

                > Subject: [existlist] In brief

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

                concept,

                > frequently used as a political weapon.

                >

                > Louise

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • bhvwd
                ... person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person from another race. ... Shall we measure cranial
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a
                  person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or
                  more prone to crime than a person from another race.
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > What race(s) would be dull-witted, lazy and felonious, pray tell?
                  Shall we measure cranial widths and bumps as well?
                  >
                  > Wil
                  > Ah Phrenology. I kept a head on my desk for several years. When I
                  was tempted to digress from rational treatment I could always look
                  at that perfect head. It was all wrong but it looked good. Bill
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 4:45 pm
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Michael,
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is
                  more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the
                  reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people
                  have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in,
                  their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the
                  diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental
                  characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but
                  there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an
                  individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a
                  greater probability of a person of a given race being more
                  intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person
                  from another race.
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  >
                  > From: bartleyoreg@...
                  >
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM
                  >
                  > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
                  have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point
                  of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other
                  people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway,
                  while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of
                  interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that
                  race is not that important.
                  >
                  > Michael
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  >
                  > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                  >
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
                  >
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am
                  >
                  > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
                  >
                  > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
                  Jewish
                  >
                  > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
                  >
                  > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
                  >
                  > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
                  It
                  >
                  > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
                  >
                  > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
                  good
                  >
                  > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
                  idea
                  >
                  > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
                  >
                  > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
                  European
                  >
                  > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
                  >
                  > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
                  >
                  > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
                  >
                  > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
                  >
                  > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
                  >
                  > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
                  issue
                  >
                  > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
                  black,
                  >
                  > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
                  issue
                  >
                  > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
                  very
                  >
                  > strange statement.
                  >
                  > > Michael
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  >
                  > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                  >
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
                  >
                  > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
                  >
                  > concept,
                  >
                  > > frequently used as a political weapon.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Louise
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • eupraxis@aol.com
                  Delectation of Independence Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time. Wil ... From: bartleyoreg@aol.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 5 Dec
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Delectation of Independence




                    Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time.

                    Wil




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: bartleyoreg@...
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

























                    Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting anywhere close?

                    Michael



                    -----Original Message-----

                    From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                    Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm

                    Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief



                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:

                    >

                    > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you

                    have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your

                    point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding

                    other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?

                    Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,

                    would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our

                    present world that race is not that important.

                    > Michael



                    Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good

                    spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist

                    seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such

                    an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new

                    members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the

                    road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present

                    world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a

                    few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way

                    all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society

                    if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could

                    flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of

                    the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate

                    embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the

                    police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts

                    of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would

                    soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise



                    >

                    >

                    > -----Original Message-----

                    > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                    > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I

                    am

                    > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

                    > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal

                    Jewish

                    > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

                    > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

                    > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.

                    It

                    > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

                    > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a

                    good

                    > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

                    > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit

                    > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on

                    European

                    > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

                    > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

                    > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

                    > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

                    > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

                    >

                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:

                    > >

                    > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

                    > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical

                    issue

                    > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie

                    black,

                    > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical

                    issue

                    > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a

                    very

                    > strange statement.

                    > > Michael

                    > >

                    > >

                    > > -----Original Message-----

                    > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                    > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                    > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

                    > > Subject: [existlist] In brief

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

                    > concept,

                    > > frequently used as a political weapon.

                    > >

                    > > Louise

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > >

                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    > >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • tom
                    What I said was that there were greater probabilities of certain strenghths and weaknesses appearing among races, but that many individuals will very much
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      What I said was that there were greater probabilities of certain strenghths and weaknesses appearing among races, but that many individuals will very much overlap. Its like saying that as a group, men are taller than women. However, there are numerous women over 6 feet, and some guys around 5 feet. Jewish and oriental students are more likely to be on the honor roll. Blacks are more likely to be the winners in track and field competition, and us white guys have the highest % of serial killers.Certain diseases are more prevalent among certain races.
                      Tom
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: bhvwd
                      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:31 PM
                      Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief


                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > At most, we could say that there is a greater probability of a
                      person of a given race being more intelligent, more industrious, or
                      more prone to crime than a person from another race.
                      >
                      > Tom,
                      >
                      > What race(s) would be dull-witted, lazy and felonious, pray tell?
                      Shall we measure cranial widths and bumps as well?
                      >
                      > Wil
                      > Ah Phrenology. I kept a head on my desk for several years. When I
                      was tempted to digress from rational treatment I could always look
                      at that perfect head. It was all wrong but it looked good. Bill
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: tom <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 4:45 pm
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Michael,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I agree with you that understanding other people's point of view is
                      more important than winning an argument with them. To understand the
                      reality of the world, it's very helpful to understand that people
                      have various opinions. Some may be due to the nation they live in,
                      their family, various complexers they have etc;but in any case the
                      diversity of views is the reality. Certainly some physical and mental
                      characteristics are more dominant in some races than others; but
                      there is so much overlap that its impossible to characterize an
                      individual by his or her race. At most, we could say that there is a
                      greater probability of a person of a given race being more
                      intelligent, more industrious, or more prone to crime than a person
                      from another race.
                      >
                      > Tom
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      >
                      > From: bartleyoreg@...
                      >
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:23 PM
                      >
                      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
                      have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your point
                      of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding other
                      people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.? Anyway,
                      while I can see the concept of race, what is race even, would be of
                      interest to scholars besides that it seems in our present world that
                      race is not that important.
                      >
                      > Michael
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      >
                      > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                      >
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
                      >
                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I am
                      >
                      > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
                      >
                      > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
                      Jewish
                      >
                      > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
                      >
                      > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
                      >
                      > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
                      It
                      >
                      > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
                      >
                      > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
                      good
                      >
                      > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
                      idea
                      >
                      > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
                      >
                      > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
                      European
                      >
                      > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
                      >
                      > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
                      >
                      > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
                      >
                      > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
                      >
                      > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
                      >
                      > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
                      issue
                      >
                      > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
                      black,
                      >
                      > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
                      issue
                      >
                      > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
                      very
                      >
                      > strange statement.
                      >
                      > > Michael
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      >
                      > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                      >
                      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
                      >
                      > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
                      >
                      > concept,
                      >
                      > > frequently used as a political weapon.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Louise
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • tom
                      I m very much a fan of the Declaration of Independance also. Of course, the point of newspeak George Orwell made was how beautiful words can still be
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I'm very much a fan of the Declaration of Independance also. Of course, the point of 'newspeak' George Orwell made was how beautiful words can still be admired, while the practical aplication of such statement can gradually be changed. The very Americans who talk the most about our heritage, freedom etc are very often the ones that in reality promote agendas like getting in fights around the world and building a massive police state at home; and these were the things that guys like Washington and Jefferson saw as totally opposed to the new vision on which the US was founded. Shaun Hannity starts his radio show with "Let Freedom Ring" and has "Freedom Concerts", but his idea of freedom goes no further than going to the Judeochristian church of your choice, and investing in the 401k of your choice. Yesterday, Hannity had Bill Bennett as 1 of his guests, and Bennett was Drug Czar under Bush1. Freedom is used by these guys as another excuse for imperialistic aggression.

                        Tom



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: bartleyoreg@...
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:03 PM
                        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief


                        Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting anywhere close?
                        Michael

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm
                        Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you
                        have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
                        point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
                        other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?
                        Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
                        would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
                        present world that race is not that important.
                        > Michael

                        Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
                        spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
                        seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such
                        an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
                        members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the
                        road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
                        world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a
                        few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
                        all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society
                        if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could
                        flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of
                        the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
                        embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
                        police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts
                        of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
                        soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

                        >
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
                        > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I
                        am
                        > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and
                        > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
                        Jewish
                        > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
                        > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other
                        > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.
                        It
                        > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
                        > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
                        good
                        > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea
                        > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to inhibit
                        > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
                        European
                        > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
                        > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.
                        > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better
                        > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
                        > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
                        >
                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of
                        > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
                        issue
                        > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
                        black,
                        > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
                        issue
                        > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
                        very
                        > strange statement.
                        > > Michael
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                        > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
                        > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
                        > concept,
                        > > frequently used as a political weapon.
                        > >
                        > > Louise
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • bartleyoreg@aol.com
                        opps! I knew I should have used the dictionary! In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:43:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eupraxis@aol.com writes: Delectation of
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          opps! I knew I should have used the dictionary!


                          In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:43:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                          eupraxis@... writes:







                          Delectation of Independence

                          Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time.

                          Wil

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: _bartleyoreg@bartley_ (mailto:bartleyoreg@...)
                          To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)
                          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
                          Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

                          Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old,
                          anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the
                          Delectation of Independence.Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school,
                          there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we
                          are studying the Delectation of Independence.<WBR>? I get very excited about
                          this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be
                          agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the
                          last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those
                          values, while

                          Michael

                          -----Original Message-----

                          From: louise <_hecubatoher@hecubatohhe_ (mailto:hecubatoher@...) >

                          To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                          Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm

                          Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                          --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                          bartleyoreg@, bart

                          >

                          > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you

                          have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your

                          point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding

                          other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?

                          Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,

                          would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our

                          present world that race is not that important.

                          > Michael

                          Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good

                          spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at

                          seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such

                          an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new

                          members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the

                          road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present

                          world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a

                          few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way

                          all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society

                          if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could

                          flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of

                          the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate

                          embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the

                          police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts

                          of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would

                          soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

                          >

                          >

                          > -----Original Message-----

                          > From: louise <hecubatoher@hec>

                          > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                          > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

                          > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I

                          am

                          > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

                          > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal

                          Jewish

                          > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

                          > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

                          > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.

                          It

                          > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

                          > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a

                          good

                          > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

                          > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic' is religious. Th

                          > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on

                          European

                          > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

                          > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

                          > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

                          > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

                          > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

                          >

                          > --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                          bartleyoreg@ wrote:

                          > >

                          > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

                          > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical

                          issue

                          > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie

                          black,

                          > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical

                          issue

                          > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a

                          very

                          > strange statement.

                          > > Michael

                          > >

                          > >

                          > > -----Original Message-----

                          > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                          > > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                          > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

                          > > Subject: [existlist] In brief

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

                          > concept,

                          > > frequently used as a political weapon.

                          > >

                          > > Louise

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > >

                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          > >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                        • eupraxis@aol.com
                          Tom, Well, I understand the save, but this is all still prejudice, in my opinion, if you are explaining such differences (even if they were accurate) as caused
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Tom,

                            Well, I understand the save, but this is all still prejudice, in my opinion,
                            if you are explaining such differences (even if they were accurate) as caused
                            by a "race" factor. Second and third generation Asians do not show any marked
                            difference with the student population as a whole, leading one to assume that
                            there is a cultural/'nurture' factor at work here. 'Blacks', qua Black, "are
                            not likely to be the winners in track and field competition"; tall, long-legged
                            people are. See Aristotle on attribution of cause.

                            Mutatis mutandis.

                            In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately being
                            difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is with the actual
                            concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the delicate matter of the 'ism' of
                            race. Using race as a thing-unto-itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural
                            difference in the great chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist
                            act, regardless of whether this is done as it were benignly.

                            Let us not forget, this topic has been broached here alongside such other
                            questions as racial identity as patriotism, ethnic cleansing, forced mono-ethnic
                            societies, and the so forth. The 'bad others', so far, seem to have been South
                            Asians and Near Asians. What talents/stigmata do they have? Good at school,
                            but bad fashion sense?

                            I do not attribute any of this to you, of course. I try not to attribute any
                            of this to Louise, either, since I believe that she is mistaken and not
                            malevolent. I live in the deep South, USA. My patience for these has long ago been
                            tapped out.

                            Wil

                            In a message dated 12/5/08 7:02:24 PM, tsmith17_midsouth1@... writes:

                            > What I said was that there were greater probabilities of certain strenghths
                            > and weaknesses appearing among races, but that many individuals will very
                            > much overlap. Its like saying that as a group, men are taller than women.
                            > However, there are numerous women over 6 feet, and some guys around 5 feet. Jewish
                            > and oriental students are more likely to be on the honor roll. Blacks are
                            > more likely to be the winners in track and field competition, and us white guys
                            > have the highest % of serial killers.Certain diseases are more prevalent
                            > among certain races.
                            > Tom
                            >
                            >
                            >




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                          • bhvwd
                            ... course, the point of newspeak George Orwell made was how beautiful words can still be admired, while the practical aplication of such statement can
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I'm very much a fan of the Declaration of Independance also. Of
                              course, the point of 'newspeak' George Orwell made was how beautiful
                              words can still be admired, while the practical aplication of such
                              statement can gradually be changed. The very Americans who talk the
                              most about our heritage, freedom etc are very often the ones that in
                              reality promote agendas like getting in fights around the world and
                              building a massive police state at home; and these were the things
                              that guys like Washington and Jefferson saw as totally opposed to the
                              new vision on which the US was founded. Shaun Hannity starts his
                              radio show with "Let Freedom Ring" and has "Freedom Concerts", but
                              his idea of freedom goes no further than going to the Judeochristian
                              church of your choice, and investing in the 401k of your choice.
                              Yesterday, Hannity had Bill Bennett as 1 of his guests, and Bennett
                              was Drug Czar under Bush1. Freedom is used by these guys as another
                              excuse for imperialistic aggression.
                              > Tom I have hope for you , even if you lapse into self absorption
                              and putrid rhetoric. Please continue to expunge and we will happily
                              accomidate your demise. I write my sort of immersables and report
                              that the better men I have known have hung their butts out. Imagine
                              the courage of exclamination, get the point!Bill
                              > Tom
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: bartleyoreg@...
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 5:03 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief
                              >
                              >
                              > Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14
                              years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we
                              are studying the Delectation of Independence.? I get very excited
                              about this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe
                              it could be agrued that this document changed history more then any
                              other document in the last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an
                              American, to see that those values, while we may have not lived up to
                              them, where the values we believed were important as a people.? That
                              part of being an American, is having that as our core.? I am getting
                              anywhere close?
                              > Michael
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm
                              > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                              >
                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that
                              you
                              > have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your
                              > point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding
                              > other people posting then having or winning an agrument with
                              them.?
                              > Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,
                              > would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our
                              > present world that race is not that important.
                              > > Michael
                              >
                              > Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good
                              > spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at existlist
                              > seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of
                              such
                              > an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new
                              > members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating
                              the
                              > road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present
                              > world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for
                              a
                              > few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way
                              > all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of
                              society
                              > if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race
                              could
                              > flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention
                              of
                              > the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate
                              > embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the
                              > police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive
                              outbursts
                              > of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would
                              > soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect.
                              Louise
                              >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                              > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm
                              > > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point
                              I
                              > am
                              > > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic,
                              and
                              > > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal
                              > Jewish
                              > > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial
                              > > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of
                              other
                              > > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their
                              interests.
                              > It
                              > > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people
                              > > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a
                              > good
                              > > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this
                              idea
                              > > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic', to
                              inhibit
                              > > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on
                              > European
                              > > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying
                              > > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and
                              war.
                              > > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is
                              better
                              > > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time
                              > > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise
                              > >
                              > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, bartleyoreg@ wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part
                              of
                              > > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical
                              > issue
                              > > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie
                              > black,
                              > > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical
                              > issue
                              > > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a
                              > very
                              > > strange statement.
                              > > > Michael
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                              > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm
                              > > > Subject: [existlist] In brief
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical
                              > > concept,
                              > > > frequently used as a political weapon.
                              > > >
                              > > > Louise
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Paul Jacobson
                              Actually one could argue that the Declaration Of Independence was indeed Delectable ........ PJ ... From: bartleyoreg@aol.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 5, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Actually one could argue that the Declaration Of Independence was indeed "Delectable"........
                                PJ

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: bartleyoreg@...
                                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:30 PM
                                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief


                                opps! I knew I should have used the dictionary!


                                In a message dated 12/5/2008 3:43:45 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                eupraxis@... writes:

                                Delectation of Independence

                                Gotta watch that spell check. Gets you every time.

                                Wil

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: _bartleyoreg@bartley_ (mailto:bartleyoreg@...)
                                To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)
                                Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 5:03 pm
                                Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: In brief

                                Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school, there 13-14 years old,
                                anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we are studying the
                                Delectation of Independence.Louise, I work as a volunteer in a middle school,
                                there 13-14 years old, anyway I help in the American history class.? Currently we
                                are studying the Delectation of Independence.<WBR>? I get very excited about
                                this document, sorry knowing you're British!, anyway I believe it could be
                                agrued that this document changed history more then any other document in the
                                last 230 years.? It makes me proud to be an American, to see that those
                                values, while

                                Michael

                                -----Original Message-----

                                From: louise <_hecubatoher@hecubatohhe_ (mailto:hecubatoher@...) >

                                To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                                Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 2:44 pm

                                Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                                --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                                bartleyoreg@, bart

                                >

                                > Thank you Louise for your thoughful response, I can see that you

                                have thought deeply about this and I do want to understand your

                                point of view.? On a side note I more interested in understanding

                                other people posting then having or winning an agrument with them.?

                                Anyway, while I can see the concept of race, what is race even,

                                would be of interest to scholars besides that it seems in our

                                present world that race is not that important.

                                > Michael

                                Michael, I have a love of argument, if it is conducted in good

                                spirit, and those of us who are regular contributors at

                                seem to my perception moving ever closer to the attainment of such

                                an ideal, whilst the list is also continueing to welcome new

                                members. So I even feel a little happier tonight, contemplating the

                                road ahead. With regard to the concept of race in our present

                                world, it is not important to the many, but is very important for a

                                few. Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way

                                all the time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society

                                if this were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could

                                flourish, instead of the current situation, in which the mention of

                                the topic in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate

                                embarrassment or hostility. And may readily lead straight to the

                                police cell, and the courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts

                                of those with little to say that stands up to any scrutiny would

                                soon be eclipsed, if serious people were shown due respect. Louise

                                >

                                >

                                > -----Original Message-----

                                > From: louise <hecubatoher@hec>

                                > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                                > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 1:15 pm

                                > Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > Yes, Michael, I agree, ethics is part of philosophy. The point I

                                am

                                > making is that the concept of race is European, not Semitic, and

                                > that this way of asserting racism, i.e., to express communal

                                Jewish

                                > solidarity by introducing the confusion of the racial

                                > term, 'Semitism', is potentially harmful to the attempts of other

                                > racial groups to practise legitimate defence of their interests.

                                It

                                > seems to me to prove prejudicial even to the Jewish people

                                > themselves. Their unique kind of community in diversity owes a

                                good

                                > deal to an idea of racial purity, but the foundation for this idea

                                > is religious. The power of the concept 'anti-Semitic' is religious. Th

                                > free thought and impose the tendency for self-censorship on

                                European

                                > peoples is part of the total battle, the undoubtedly horrifying

                                > history of bigotries, pogroms, recriminations, intrigue and war.

                                > Until the reality and importance of the concept of race is better

                                > understood, the argument here may easily be missed. Only time

                                > reveals the full meanings of history. Louise

                                >

                                > --- In _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com) ,
                                bartleyoreg@ wrote:

                                > >

                                > > What makes you say this, please explain!? Isn't ethics part of

                                > philosophy?? A view we have towards people that not an ethical

                                issue

                                > or concern.? How we treat people because of what they are, ie

                                black,

                                > women, English, only because that trait, that is not a ethical

                                issue

                                > or concern.? On the face of your posting it seems to be kind a

                                very

                                > strange statement.

                                > > Michael

                                > >

                                > >

                                > > -----Original Message-----

                                > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                                > > To: _existlist@yahoogrouexistl_ (mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com)

                                > > Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:35 pm

                                > > Subject: [existlist] In brief

                                > >

                                > >

                                > >

                                > >

                                > >

                                > >

                                > > From a philosophical viewpoint, anti-Semitism is a mythical

                                > concept,

                                > > frequently used as a political weapon.

                                > >

                                > > Louise

                                > >

                                > >

                                > >

                                > >

                                > >

                                > >

                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                > >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                              • jimstuart51
                                All, I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject matter. One central issue is
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  All,

                                  I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and
                                  constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject
                                  matter.

                                  One central issue is the question of whether to engage in a
                                  philosophical discussion of racism, assuming the concept of race to
                                  be a valid concept, is itself to fall into racist attitudes. Thus Wil
                                  writes:

                                  "In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately
                                  being difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is
                                  with the actual concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the
                                  delicate matter of the 'ism' of race. Using race as a thing-unto-
                                  itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural difference in the great
                                  chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist act, regardless
                                  of whether this is done as it were benignly." (45883)

                                  As against this, Louise calls for philosophers to accept the concept
                                  of race as valid and to address this matter more thoroughly than
                                  before:

                                  "Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way all the
                                  time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society if this
                                  were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could flourish,
                                  instead of the current situation, in which the mention of the topic
                                  in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate embarrassment or
                                  hostility. And may readily lead straight to the police cell, and the
                                  courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts of those with little
                                  to say that stands up to any scrutiny would soon be eclipsed, if
                                  serious people were shown due respect." (45874)

                                  I think both these view can be accommodated if the philosophical
                                  discussion centres on the question whether or not the concept of race
                                  is a valid concept.

                                  On one side, the more scientifically-orientated philosophers may
                                  argue that race is a `natural kind' term which can be used to pick
                                  out, in an objective way, individuals who fall under one or other
                                  racial category.

                                  On the other side, the more subjectively-orientated philosophers may
                                  argue that the whole idea of a natural-kind concept is dubious. They
                                  would argue that the concepts we use answer to our interests, and if
                                  we view a conceptual distinction as not being in our interests than
                                  that distinction is to be rejected as invalid.

                                  Nietzsche argued for this latter view when pouring score on those
                                  ascetic individuals who put a disinterested `will to truth' above all
                                  else. He views such individuals as weak and `anti-life'. Of course
                                  the irony here is that the concept of race was one which featured in
                                  Nietzsche's writings. Whilst I would not consider Nietzsche a racist,
                                  he seems to come out as a `benign racist' according to Wil's
                                  criterion, as he seems to accept the validity of the concept of race.

                                  Another irony is that for Louise, she wishes the concept of race to
                                  be discussed for cultural reasons. She is concerned that the British
                                  white culture is not allowed to die out. Leftists and liberals are
                                  often keen to defend the rights of minority cultures to survive
                                  untainted by Western imperialism and capitalism. Western liberals
                                  like myself feel that the native Indians of America and the
                                  Aborigines of Australia have a right to protect their own culture
                                  from extinction, but we feel uneasy when white British people argue
                                  for the same right of protection.

                                  I have some sympathy for those traditional cultures who do not wish
                                  to be subsumed by Western capitalism. I don't want a MacDonalds in
                                  every primitive village, or the top television companies beaming out
                                  their lies from a television in every public meeting place.

                                  On the other hand wishing to preserve one's own culture or race in
                                  some sort of `pure' form makes me very uneasy as well.

                                  Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                                  people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                                  Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                                  another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                                  of their opponent race as not fully human – not even human at all. In
                                  fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                                  brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                                  just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                                  2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                                  well.)

                                  The way forward, in my view, if for the philosopher to argue that all
                                  human beings – whatever their racial or cultural background – are
                                  fully human, and, as such, are equally valuable in themselves, and,
                                  because of this, deserve to be treated with benevolence and respect,
                                  as `ends in themselves, and never as means'. Kant argued for this
                                  view in theory, but I gather that in practice he was not quite able
                                  to see some foreigners as fully human.

                                  Jim
                                • tom
                                  Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal. Those cases where one
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                                    people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                                    Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                                    another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                                    of their opponent race as not fully human - not even human at all. In
                                    fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                                    brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                                    just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                                    2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                                    well.)Jim

                                    I read a Tolstoy quote once saying that as long as we have slaughter houses we'll have front lines. The hunting gatherring party, the first social group was bounded as to everything outside of us is game.Making a blood sacrafice to the tribal God. Tribal people r so much more closely connected with each other than we. Civiliozed people lack the same unity that tribals share. However, the very closeness with each other as compared to civilized cats is matched by the willingness to align wit the emerging value
                                    Tom.

                                    Tom
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: jimstuart51
                                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:07 AM
                                    Subject: [existlist] Re: In brief


                                    All,

                                    I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and
                                    constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject
                                    matter.

                                    One central issue is the question of whether to engage in a
                                    philosophical discussion of racism, assuming the concept of race to
                                    be a valid concept, is itself to fall into racist attitudes. Thus Wil
                                    writes:

                                    "In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately
                                    being difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is
                                    with the actual concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the
                                    delicate matter of the 'ism' of race. Using race as a thing-unto-
                                    itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural difference in the great
                                    chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist act, regardless
                                    of whether this is done as it were benignly." (45883)

                                    As against this, Louise calls for philosophers to accept the concept
                                    of race as valid and to address this matter more thoroughly than
                                    before:

                                    "Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way all the
                                    time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society if this
                                    were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could flourish,
                                    instead of the current situation, in which the mention of the topic
                                    in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate embarrassment or
                                    hostility. And may readily lead straight to the police cell, and the
                                    courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts of those with little
                                    to say that stands up to any scrutiny would soon be eclipsed, if
                                    serious people were shown due respect." (45874)

                                    I think both these view can be accommodated if the philosophical
                                    discussion centres on the question whether or not the concept of race
                                    is a valid concept.

                                    On one side, the more scientifically-orientated philosophers may
                                    argue that race is a `natural kind' term which can be used to pick
                                    out, in an objective way, individuals who fall under one or other
                                    racial category.

                                    On the other side, the more subjectively-orientated philosophers may
                                    argue that the whole idea of a natural-kind concept is dubious. They
                                    would argue that the concepts we use answer to our interests, and if
                                    we view a conceptual distinction as not being in our interests than
                                    that distinction is to be rejected as invalid.

                                    Nietzsche argued for this latter view when pouring score on those
                                    ascetic individuals who put a disinterested `will to truth' above all
                                    else. He views such individuals as weak and `anti-life'. Of course
                                    the irony here is that the concept of race was one which featured in
                                    Nietzsche's writings. Whilst I would not consider Nietzsche a racist,
                                    he seems to come out as a `benign racist' according to Wil's
                                    criterion, as he seems to accept the validity of the concept of race.

                                    Another irony is that for Louise, she wishes the concept of race to
                                    be discussed for cultural reasons. She is concerned that the British
                                    white culture is not allowed to die out. Leftists and liberals are
                                    often keen to defend the rights of minority cultures to survive
                                    untainted by Western imperialism and capitalism. Western liberals
                                    like myself feel that the native Indians of America and the
                                    Aborigines of Australia have a right to protect their own culture
                                    from extinction, but we feel uneasy when white British people argue
                                    for the same right of protection.

                                    I have some sympathy for those traditional cultures who do not wish
                                    to be subsumed by Western capitalism. I don't want a MacDonalds in
                                    every primitive village, or the top television companies beaming out
                                    their lies from a television in every public meeting place.

                                    On the other hand wishing to preserve one's own culture or race in
                                    some sort of `pure' form makes me very uneasy as well.

                                    Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                                    people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                                    Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                                    another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                                    of their opponent race as not fully human - not even human at all. In
                                    fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                                    brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                                    just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                                    2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                                    well.)

                                    The way forward, in my view, if for the philosopher to argue that all
                                    human beings - whatever their racial or cultural background - are
                                    fully human, and, as such, are equally valuable in themselves, and,
                                    because of this, deserve to be treated with benevolence and respect,
                                    as `ends in themselves, and never as means'. Kant argued for this
                                    view in theory, but I gather that in practice he was not quite able
                                    to see some foreigners as fully human.

                                    Jim





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • eupraxis@aol.com
                                    Jim, Thanks for the post. Many writers before the last Century, with all of its horrors and the hindsight gleaned from them, have used the concept of race in
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                      Jim,

                                      Thanks for the post.

                                      Many writers before the last Century, with all of its horrors and the
                                      hindsight gleaned from them, have used the concept of race in one way or another.
                                      Kant says some very terrible things about black Africans; Engels writes about the
                                      small brains of American aboriginals; Nietzsche talks about the hot Latin
                                      races, and so on. These statements are not part of a formal theory, but were
                                      rather part and parcel of a naive prejudice held by the mainstream in the West
                                      that were never examined thoroughly. Since the advent of Nazism and other overt
                                      racist movements, the concept of race has been examined in all relevant fields,
                                      including recently in the genetic sciences. The conclusion wrought from all
                                      of these fields is that "race" is a street notion, an intellectual slang with
                                      no formal veracity, a way to group family resemblances but not to associate
                                      anything otherwise unusually innate to them vis-a-vis others, other than a
                                      propensity to have gas after eating cheese or to develop a rare kind of anemia, etc.


                                      Thus race is a term the importance of which is only to be gleaned from its
                                      context, especially in writings since the 19th Century. I prefer never to use
                                      it, except for phrases like "human race" and the like.

                                      If we look at a writer like Spengler, whom I admire, we see how he developed
                                      a very sophisticated way of understanding race as a trans-morphic secondary
                                      characteristic of 'man'. If one takes a look at his monumental "Decline of the
                                      West", you will see how he understands race as something that changes over
                                      time. Humanity is thoroughly 'plastic' for Spengler. He contended against the
                                      notion of racial superiority.

                                      Even Nietzsche, whose remarks are nearly always more 'rhetorical' than
                                      formal, anyway, associates the behavior of 'races' with their culinary practices and
                                      weather, rather than with some virtually occult 'essence'. Perhaps those who
                                      eat too many sausages have a different mood than those who eat a 'Continental
                                      breakfast'? Dunno...

                                      I have always found it remarkable how racists here in the US have warned
                                      against the polluting of American culture by "blacks", when the obvious fact of
                                      the matter is that American culture is totally infused with black culture, and
                                      always has been since there was a discernible American culture in the first
                                      place! While I understand the fear of a MacDonalds being on every street corner
                                      of London, it is nevertheless the case that American culture (R&B, blues, rock
                                      and roll, etc.) has already so affected British popular culture as to be, by
                                      now, indissociable from it. For many years, there were more white Brit kids
                                      from Liverpool listening to recordings of Albert King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy
                                      Waters than kids from Long Island, where I grew up.

                                      In any case, you offer us two basic alternatives: either to argue about race
                                      from within its own controversy (what is race, is there race?), or to argue
                                      about race from the oblique position of ethics and politics, if we assume, as a
                                      prior condition, that all persons deserve respect. I, for one. would welcome
                                      either, as I have no doubt that the conclusions of both would lead in a
                                      parallel direction.

                                      Wil



                                      In a message dated 12/7/08 8:09:36 AM, jjimstuart1@... writes:


                                      > All,
                                      >
                                      > I feel the posts in this thread have been thoughtful and
                                      > constructive, especially given the sensitive nature of the subject
                                      > matter.
                                      >
                                      > One central issue is the question of whether to engage in a
                                      > philosophical discussion of racism, assuming the concept of race to
                                      > be a valid concept, is itself to fall into racist attitudes. Thus Wil
                                      > writes:
                                      >
                                      > "In any case, one could roll one's eyes and accuse me of deliberately
                                      > being difficult, were it not of the fact that the problem here is
                                      > with the actual concept of RACISM ITSELF, and that includes the
                                      > delicate matter of the 'ism' of race. Using race as a thing-unto-
                                      > itself, as a virtual metaphysic, as a natural difference in the great
                                      > chain of being or the tree of life, etc., is a racist act, regardless
                                      > of whether this is done as it were benignly." (45883)
                                      >
                                      > As against this, Louise calls for philosophers to accept the concept
                                      > of race as valid and to address this matter more thoroughly than
                                      > before:
                                      >
                                      > "Racial instincts, though, manifest in a non-intellectual way all the
                                      > time. I think it would be greatly to the benefit of society if this
                                      > were acknowledged, and an interest in discussing race could flourish,
                                      > instead of the current situation, in which the mention of the topic
                                      > in mainstream quarters tends to evoke immediate embarrassment or
                                      > hostility. And may readily lead straight to the police cell, and the
                                      > courts. The hysterical and offensive outbursts of those with little
                                      > to say that stands up to any scrutiny would soon be eclipsed, if
                                      > serious people were shown due respect." (45874)
                                      >
                                      > I think both these view can be accommodated if the philosophical
                                      > discussion centres on the question whether or not the concept of race
                                      > is a valid concept.
                                      >
                                      > On one side, the more scientifically- On one side, the more scien
                                      > argue that race is a `natural kind' term which can be used to pick
                                      > out, in an objective way, individuals who fall under one or other
                                      > racial category.
                                      >
                                      > On the other side, the more subjectively- On the other side, the more
                                      > argue that the whole idea of a natural-kind concept is dubious. They
                                      > would argue that the concepts we use answer to our interests, and if
                                      > we view a conceptual distinction as not being in our interests than
                                      > that distinction is to be rejected as invalid.
                                      >
                                      > Nietzsche argued for this latter view when pouring score on those
                                      > ascetic individuals who put a disinterested `will to truth' above all
                                      > else. He views such individuals as weak and `anti-life'. Of course
                                      > the irony here is that the concept of race was one which featured in
                                      > Nietzsche's writings. Whilst I would not consider Nietzsche a racist,
                                      > he seems to come out as a `benign racist' according to Wil's
                                      > criterion, as he seems to accept the validity of the concept of race.
                                      >
                                      > Another irony is that for Louise, she wishes the concept of race to
                                      > be discussed for cultural reasons. She is concerned that the British
                                      > white culture is not allowed to die out. Leftists and liberals are
                                      > often keen to defend the rights of minority cultures to survive
                                      > untainted by Western imperialism and capitalism. Western liberals
                                      > like myself feel that the native Indians of America and the
                                      > Aborigines of Australia have a right to protect their own culture
                                      > from extinction, but we feel uneasy when white British people argue
                                      > for the same right of protection.
                                      >
                                      > I have some sympathy for those traditional cultures who do not wish
                                      > to be subsumed by Western capitalism. I don't want a MacDonalds in
                                      > every primitive village, or the top television companies beaming out
                                      > their lies from a television in every public meeting place.
                                      >
                                      > On the other hand wishing to preserve one's own culture or race in
                                      > some sort of `pure' form makes me very uneasy as well.
                                      >
                                      > Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                                      > people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                                      > Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                                      > another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                                      > of their opponent race as not fully human – not even human at all. In
                                      > fact all war and killing seems to involve the combatants as being
                                      > brain-washed to see their enemies as lacking in humanity. (I have
                                      > just seen the excellent film "The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas" (USA
                                      > 2008, director Mark Herman) which illustrates such attitudes very
                                      > well.)
                                      >
                                      > The way forward, in my view, if for the philosopher to argue that all
                                      > human beings – whatever their racial or cultural background – are
                                      > fully human, and, as such, are equally valuable in themselves, and,
                                      > because of this, deserve to be treated with benevolence and respect,
                                      > as `ends in themselves, and never as means'. Kant argued for this
                                      > view in theory, but I gather that in practice he was not quite able
                                      > to see some foreigners as fully human.
                                      >
                                      > Jim
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >




                                      **************
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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • jimstuart51
                                      Wil, Thanks for your post – I find myself in agreement with just about everything you have written on this subject. I ll just comment specifically on this
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                        Wil,

                                        Thanks for your post – I find myself in agreement with just about
                                        everything you have written on this subject.

                                        I'll just comment specifically on this section from your post:

                                        "While I understand the fear of a MacDonalds being on every street
                                        corner of London, it is nevertheless the case that American culture
                                        (R&B, blues, rock and roll, etc.) has already so affected British
                                        popular culture as to be, by now, indissociable from it. For many
                                        years, there were more white Brit kids from Liverpool listening to
                                        recordings of Albert King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy Waters than kids
                                        from Long Island, where I grew up."

                                        I, myself, am not too concerned about American culture dominating
                                        over here. I consider myself rather a `counter-culture' person
                                        anyway, quite happy to embrace things which are often explicitly
                                        reactions against the mainstream culture, whether British or American.

                                        More than anything else, I consider myself to be a European rather
                                        than English or British. I see myself as part of the intellectual
                                        culture of Europe which started with the Ancient Greeks, then moved
                                        to the Romans, and more than anything else I see myself as a product
                                        of the Enlightenment.

                                        I found myself feeling a sense of pride when I read Zizek writing:

                                        "What makes modern Europe unique is that it is the first and only
                                        civilisation in which atheism is a fully legitimate option, not an
                                        obstacle to any public post. This is most emphatically a European
                                        legacy worth fighting for. (Violence, p. 118)

                                        I suppose I also feel myself to be a continuation of a tradition of
                                        English radicalism which embraced such groups as the Quakers, the
                                        Chartists and the early trade unionists.

                                        Referring to myself as European tends to annoy British/English
                                        nationalists and patriots. However they themselves seem to be on
                                        tricky ground when asked if they are primarily English or British.

                                        I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British' and
                                        sometimes as `English'. This is only likely to annoy anybody who is
                                        Scottish or Welsh. As you know, England has conquered both Wales and
                                        Scotland at some time or other, and today there are many Welsh and
                                        Scottish nationalists who wish to defend their Welsh and Scottish
                                        culture from the English imperialists.

                                        Sometimes these Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk of the English
                                        as a different race!

                                        Finally, moving from culture back to race, I can honestly say that to
                                        me race is a total non-issue. I see people as human beings primarily
                                        and hardly notice the colour of their skin. Just as I would be
                                        perfectly happy for my children to be gay, I would be perfectly happy
                                        for them to have loving relationships with individuals from different
                                        racial and cultural backgrounds.

                                        Perhaps it could be argued that I am so unconcerned about cultural
                                        and racial only because I have never suffered at the hands of a
                                        stronger cultural or racial aggressor. Certainly being male, white,
                                        heterosexual, middle class and European, I acknowledge that I am
                                        probably not the best person to talk on the subject of the oppression
                                        of minorities.

                                        Jim
                                      • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                                        ... not really interested in race issues, as i don t see how anyone actually conversant with modern genetic DNA research can be a racist. racism is outdated
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                          > most
                                          > people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.
                                          > Those cases where one race has aggressively attempted to destroy
                                          > another race are often case where the aggressor views the individuals
                                          > of their opponent race as not fully human – not even human at all.
                                          > Jim

                                          not really interested in race issues, as i don't see how anyone actually
                                          conversant with modern genetic DNA research can be a racist. racism is
                                          outdated bad science and the cumulative result of colonialist thought
                                          (maybe also a specialized result of elitist or wanna-be ruling class
                                          thinking).

                                          i don't see racism as necessarily connected to nationalism at all.
                                          nationalism, as most things, may be either destructive and hateful of
                                          others or a positive unifying force which respects the positive
                                          nationalism of others.

                                          i don't think racism has been either a primary or universal frame of
                                          reference in relation to the other, as there is ample evidence for
                                          non-racist contact among archaic populations in low population density
                                          areas.

                                          first of all racism involves a belief in father-right and sexual purity,
                                          but humans are just as related to the bonobo (whose society is not based
                                          on "sexual selection") as to the larger chimpanzee. there are
                                          populations, as in pre-Christian northern Eurasia, where sexual purity
                                          was not necessarily demanded of females, and father right is not
                                          necessarily primary. in low population density areas the primary
                                          consideration is likely to be female fertility as a value rather than
                                          virginity, and children are going to be valued as valuable additions to
                                          the group as long as they contribute and support group norms. native
                                          Americans for example kidnapped also white children when there were not
                                          enough in the tribe.

                                          here's an interesting article that speaks of current attitudes as
                                          deriving from earlier pagan views:
                                          http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/18/iceland

                                          northeastern Europe is a good example of genetic diversity going back to
                                          the aboriginal populations, which for the sake of simplicity may be seen
                                          as for the first thousands of years as Finnic, Baltic, and Scandinavian
                                          - each of them with complex timespace diverse subgroup developments.
                                          there are graves of spouses of different genetic type backgrounds. even
                                          in the 9th - 12th c. alliances were not made on the basis of race. thus
                                          the (Baltic Finnic) Livs might ally themselves with a (Indo-Euroean
                                          speaking) Balt tribe against an (Baltic Finnic) Estonian tribe or
                                          another Balt tribe, but in the next round might find themselves
                                          switching alliances.

                                          organized military aggression in northeastern Europe is introduced by
                                          Indo-European military raider bands, of whom the Scandinavian Vikings
                                          are best known. the Sami of northern Europe, an archaic Europoid
                                          population with both "western" and "eastern" genetics (true also of the
                                          East Baltic), were unprepared for the aggression of the Iron Age on
                                          warrior culture marauder raiders resulting in folklore about the
                                          "Tchudes" as portrayed in the Sami Norvegian film "Pathfinder" (1987).
                                          if sometimes the portrayal of Tchudes comes close to the portrayal of
                                          cannibalistic ogres "stallu" that does not have to be taken as evidence
                                          of innate racism. aggression, rather than race, is the primary reason
                                          for characterizing the raiders as not human. friendly contacts with
                                          anthropomorphically dissimilar groups does not seem to result in racism.

                                          in short, i think even to modern times aggression against a particular
                                          population is much more fundamentally political in the E. Baltic area,
                                          rather than intrinsically racially motivated. both the Finnish and
                                          Latvian peoples in particular had tragic civil war political types of
                                          conflicts dividing primarily brother against brother as defender of
                                          either the so-called "reds" or "whites." i think Finland is an
                                          excellent example of a country that in recent times has fully come to
                                          terms with its history (that is how it was, and those were the factors
                                          from a systems point of view) and in research seems to welcome all new
                                          evidence without feeling its core threatened, resulting in a much more
                                          integrated population.

                                          aija
                                        • eupraxis@aol.com
                                          Jim, Thanks. Again, I am in agreement with your basic enframing of the topic. Wil ... ************** Stay in touch with ALL of your friends: update your AIM,
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                            Jim,

                                            Thanks. Again, I am in agreement with your basic enframing of the topic.

                                            Wil

                                            In a message dated 12/7/08 11:21:06 AM, jjimstuart1@... writes:


                                            > Wil,
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for your post – I find myself in agreement with just about
                                            > everything you have written on this subject.
                                            >
                                            > I'll just comment specifically on this section from your post:
                                            >
                                            > "While I understand the fear of a MacDonalds being on every street
                                            > corner of London, it is nevertheless the case that American culture
                                            > (R&B, blues, rock and roll, etc.) has already so affected British
                                            > popular culture as to be, by now, indissociable from it. For many
                                            > years, there were more white Brit kids from Liverpool listening to
                                            > recordings of Albert King, T-Bone Walker or Muddy Waters than kids
                                            > from Long Island, where I grew up."
                                            >
                                            > I, myself, am not too concerned about American culture dominating
                                            > over here. I consider myself rather a `counter-culture' person
                                            > anyway, quite happy to embrace things which are often explicitly
                                            > reactions against the mainstream culture, whether British or American.
                                            >
                                            > More than anything else, I consider myself to be a European rather
                                            > than English or British. I see myself as part of the intellectual
                                            > culture of Europe which started with the Ancient Greeks, then moved
                                            > to the Romans, and more than anything else I see myself as a product
                                            > of the Enlightenment.
                                            >
                                            > I found myself feeling a sense of pride when I read Zizek writing:
                                            >
                                            > "What makes modern Europe unique is that it is the first and only
                                            > civilisation in which atheism is a fully legitimate option, not an
                                            > obstacle to any public post. This is most emphatically a European
                                            > legacy worth fighting for. (Violence, p. 118)
                                            >
                                            > I suppose I also feel myself to be a continuation of a tradition of
                                            > English radicalism which embraced such groups as the Quakers, the
                                            > Chartists and the early trade unionists.
                                            >
                                            > Referring to myself as European tends to annoy British/English
                                            > nationalists and patriots. However they themselves seem to be on
                                            > tricky ground when asked if they are primarily English or British.
                                            >
                                            > I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British' and
                                            > sometimes as `English'. This is only likely to annoy anybody who is
                                            > Scottish or Welsh. As you know, England has conquered both Wales and
                                            > Scotland at some time or other, and today there are many Welsh and
                                            > Scottish nationalists who wish to defend their Welsh and Scottish
                                            > culture from the English imperialists.
                                            >
                                            > Sometimes these Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk of the English
                                            > as a different race!
                                            >
                                            > Finally, moving from culture back to race, I can honestly say that to
                                            > me race is a total non-issue. I see people as human beings primarily
                                            > and hardly notice the colour of their skin. Just as I would be
                                            > perfectly happy for my children to be gay, I would be perfectly happy
                                            > for them to have loving relationships with individuals from different
                                            > racial and cultural backgrounds.
                                            >
                                            > Perhaps it could be argued that I am so unconcerned about cultural
                                            > and racial only because I have never suffered at the hands of a
                                            > stronger cultural or racial aggressor. Certainly being male, white,
                                            > heterosexual, middle class and European, I acknowledge that I am
                                            > probably not the best person to talk on the subject of the oppression
                                            > of minorities.
                                            >
                                            > Jim
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >




                                            **************
                                            Stay in touch with ALL of your friends: update your AIM, Bebo,
                                            Facebook, and MySpace pages with just one click. The NEW AOL.com.
                                            (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000012)


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • louise
                                            ... Tom, No, actually, I am arguing that before one proceeds to question whether there are measurable differences between races, one should ascertain the
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Louise may say that all races are different but equal, however most
                                              > people who argue that races are different also view them as unequal.

                                              Tom,

                                              No, actually, I am arguing that before one proceeds to question whether
                                              there are measurable differences between races, one should ascertain
                                              the meaning of human equality. It is a spiritual or philosophical
                                              reality, not necessarily a scientific one. The divorce of science from
                                              a feeling for the sacredness of life is at the root of our modern
                                              malaise. A sweepingly general statement, but reasonable, I think.

                                              Louise
                                            • louise
                                              Jim: I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British and sometimes as `English . This is only likely to annoy anybody who is Scottish or Welsh. As
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 7, 2008
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                                                Jim: "I note that Louise sometimes refers to herself as `British' and
                                                sometimes as `English'. This is only likely to annoy anybody who is
                                                Scottish or Welsh. As you know, England has conquered both Wales and
                                                Scotland at some time or other, and today there are many Welsh and
                                                Scottish nationalists who wish to defend their Welsh and Scottish
                                                culture from the English imperialists.
                                                Sometimes these Welsh and Scottish nationalists talk of the English
                                                as a different race!"

                                                Welsh and Scottish nationalists who are annoyed by my description of
                                                myself as either British or English would be most untypical, surely,
                                                since I am obviously both, and legitimately so. Of course they are
                                                likely to be annoyed when Britain and England are named as though
                                                interchangeable, for this shows disrespect to the Scots and Welsh (as
                                                ignoring their existence) and to many Northern Irish folk who value
                                                their British nationality. There is a difference between a human
                                                being and a nation! I myself find it irritating or embarrassing when
                                                no distinction is made between the two. As for being different
                                                races, well, that might be an interesting discussion. The tribal
                                                origins of the various people who have inhabited the British isles
                                                both before and after the Norman conquest is a complex study. I am
                                                reading a book about the Vikings at the moment, and their impact on
                                                the Christian English. Fearful stuff. Louise
                                              • jimstuart51
                                                Aija, Thank you for your thoughtful and informative post. Let me comment on a couple of the sections from your post: Aija: not really interested in race
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Dec 8, 2008
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                                                  Aija,

                                                  Thank you for your thoughtful and informative post. Let me comment on
                                                  a couple of the sections from your post:

                                                  Aija: not really interested in race issues, as i don't see how anyone
                                                  actually conversant with modern genetic DNA research can be a racist.
                                                  racism is outdated bad science and the cumulative result of
                                                  colonialist thought (maybe also a specialized result of elitist or
                                                  wanna-be ruling class thinking).

                                                  Jim: Racism may indeed be "outdated bad science," but there is still
                                                  quite a lot of it about, particularly amongst those without a
                                                  scientific education. I am only interested in racism to the extent
                                                  that I think there is still work to be done, both intellectual and
                                                  practical, to eliminate it.

                                                  Aija: i don't see racism as necessarily connected to nationalism at
                                                  all. nationalism, as most things, may be either destructive and
                                                  hateful of others or a positive unifying force which respects the
                                                  positive nationalism of others.

                                                  Jim: It would be nice if nationalism were predominantly "a positive
                                                  unifying force which respects the positive nationalism of others."
                                                  However my own experience is that it is usually "destructive and
                                                  hateful of others." Perhaps, if like the Finns, we can learn from
                                                  history, then nationalism can be a force for good. Perhaps each of us
                                                  can be proud of our nation's greatest achievements, whilst
                                                  acknowledging our nation's worst behaviour (both past and present).
                                                  Unfortunately the propaganda apparatus in most countries manages to
                                                  portray the nation as always in the right. Further, individuals seem
                                                  to have a strong subconscious desire to convince themselves that
                                                  their social group (i.e. their nation) is the good guys. Also, in
                                                  most countries at most times, it is considered unpatriotic to
                                                  question the correctness of one's nation's foreign policy.


                                                  What you write about "father right and sexual purity" is most
                                                  interesting. I agree that those societies where pagan traditions
                                                  dominated seem to have emerged in a more healthy state than those
                                                  where Christian attitudes predominated. In Britain, Christian moral
                                                  attitudes are the biggest hindrance to genuine ethical progress.


                                                  Finally, the article on Iceland was interesting, although I wonder to
                                                  what extent the recent catastrophic failure of the Icelandic banks
                                                  will change things. Also, for a bleaker view of Iceland, I recommend
                                                  the film "Jar City" (Iceland 2008 Dir Baltasar Kormakur).

                                                  Jim
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