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Re: Socrates

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  • louise
    Tom, I know that I need to re-think some of my beliefs, before presenting argument. My impression is simply that when politics is so resolutely excluded from
    Message 1 of 109 , Nov 30, 2008

      I know that I need to re-think some of my beliefs, before presenting
      argument. My impression is simply that when politics is so
      resolutely excluded from an account of religious history, the
      explanations are rather abstract. Just what is to be included in
      politics? This is a most urgent question for me. Bill has often
      provided us with most insightful analyses of the current situations
      in various parts of the world. What we seem to lack at the list is
      a sense of how we got here, so to speak.

      ... continuing non-political

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "tom" <tsmith17_midsouth1@...>
      > I think the change from polytheistic paganism to monotheistic
      Judeochristianity was largely determined and supported by the fact
      that Judeochristianity was more conductive to supporting the
      patriarchal family structure than paganism. I believe the growth of
      the patriarchal family structure gave advantages in military,
      agricultural and commercial activities that by natural selection
      forced less efficient methods to be overrun by the family oriented
      leadership. The fact that a man could look forward for several
      generations encouraged longer term planning which gave advantages.
      As Christianity replaced paganism, sex was transformed from an
      expression of the divine to an expression of the diabolical, the
      pagan gods and goddesses were either converted to Christian saints
      or to devils in the case of Pan, and pagan days of festivities were
      changed to holy days. Interestingly, when pagans or witches
      celebrated their feasts on the same day as the Christian holy day,
      they were accused of blasphemy for celebrating their day of evil on
      a Christian holy day[of course the reality was that Christianity had
      taken their day, not vice versa].Constantine converting to
      Christianity and making it the state religion created the Holy Roman
      Empire and the dark ages.
      > Tom
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: louise
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 5:58 PM
      > Subject: [existlist] Re: Socrates
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Louise,
      > >
      > > Thanks.
      > >
      > > The derivation of the term is in some dispute.
      > Yes, as you point out, the ancients themselves disagreed about
      > origin. Personally, I trust the expertise of Walter Skeat, and
      > it implausible, that 're-ligare' could give rise to the
      > form 'religio'. Cicero's derivation from 'relegere', yielding
      > participle 'relegens', revering the gods, does appear in the
      > dictionary. From an existential viewpoint, I wonder how such
      > revering is possible today. Where is the expression of religious
      > feeling, in our modern world? There is plenty of worship, and
      > good works. The sense of the sacred seems to me unacknowledged
      > most satire. Its possibility is simply passed by. The function
      > satire properly has a corrective element to it. We live in a
      > of such overwhelming timidity, about offending others, that
      > avoidance, distraction, or brutal attack, has been replacing the
      > spirit of enquiry and rebellion. L.
      > What I said was what my old
      > > Latin instructor held to be the case, following the dictionary
      > used at that
      > > time, which I can no longer remember. But the following is
      > Wikopedia,
      > > which is close to what I had said:
      > >
      > > "The ultimate origins of Latin religio are obscure. It is
      > accepted to
      > > derive from ligare "bind, connect"; likely from a prefixed re-
      > ligare, i.e. re
      > > (again) + ligare or "to reconnect." This interpretation is
      > favoured by modern
      > > scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell, but was made
      > prominent by
      > > St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius.
      > possibility
      > > is derivation from a reduplicated *le-ligare. A historical
      > interpretation due
      > > to Cicero on the other hand connects lego "read", i.e. re
      > + lego in the
      > > sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully".[5]
      > may also be
      > > from Latin religi_, religi_n-, perhaps from relig_re, to tie
      > >
      > > Wil,
      > >
      > >
      > > In a message dated 11/29/08 5:01:05 PM, hecubatoher@ writes:
      > >
      > >
      > > > Wil,
      > > >
      > > > Your Latin etymology is awry. 'Legio' is the word for a body
      > > > soldiers, whence we derive our word 'legion'. The
      verb 'relegio'
      > > > does not appear in the dictionary. According to Skeat, the
      > > > derivation of 'religio', meaning piety, is not 'religare',
      > bind,
      > > > as sometimes claimed. The word is allied to 'religens',
      > the
      > > > gods, and the opposed meaning is 'negligens', negligent; it
      > also
      > > > allied to 'diligens', diligent. Thus 'religion'
      and 'neglect' are
      > > > from the same root LEG, which appears also in
      Greek, 'alego', to
      > > > have a care for, to heed, which appears in the Iliad, in
      > relation to
      > > > care, or neglect, of what is due to the gods. Your assertion
      > > > pagan thought is more about care of the self according to the
      > > > science of ethics sounds like a restricting of the meaning
      to the
      > > > later development of Greek culture. Later, that is, than the
      > > > primitivity of Homeric epic, which nevertheless is evidence
      of an
      > > > extremely high civilisation.
      > > >
      > > > Louise
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > **************
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      > > favorite sites. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?
      > optin=new-dp&
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      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • tom
      Aija, The term pagan means rural person, and I ve heard during the middle ages that Christianity was the religion of the big cities, and centers of politics;
      Message 109 of 109 , Nov 30, 2008
        The term pagan means rural person, and I've heard during the middle ages that Christianity was the religion of the big cities, and centers of politics; but the rural areas still followed nature based paganism,although often through discretion was used to avoid persecutions by the powers of the state.Often on the surface, rural churches were Christian, but in reality pagan. I've heard the same situation has existed in South America and the Caribean.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Aija Veldre Beldavs
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:43 AM
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Re: Socrates

        whither it be Christianity or Communism, it is one thing when its an
        underground cult, but becomes quite another when it becomes the dogma of
        the state.
        > Tom

        there's also a difference in level between folk religion and
        centralizing state religion when state religion is normalized and
        enforced with frozen texts and laws with a universalizing power level in
        contrast to the limiting power of what is only locally enforceable for a

        too often the grounds-up, self-organizing, oral nature of fluid creative
        folk phenomena resulting in a total effect of ongoing local community
        and individual versions and variants is ignored.

        recalling the moment in the film "Lord of the Rings" where Galadriel
        refuses the ring. Frodo, recognizing his own smallness in contrast to
        the task, is willing to give her the ring as he was not willing to give
        it to others. Galadriel shows Frodo how anything, even what is seen as
        good and light, raised to absolute power becomes terrifying and changed.
        but having passed the test, she gives the Fellowship the gift of light
        when other lights die out. this suggests other collective myths, such
        as the one about hope when all else is gone.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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