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Fw: Honesty is the only virtue

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  • rtherriault@live.com
    From: rtherriault@live.com Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:47 AM To: existlist Subject: Honesty is the only virtue Is it possible to be honest when
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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      From: rtherriault@...
      Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:47 AM
      To: existlist
      Subject: Honesty is the only virtue


      Is it possible to be honest when evaluating oneself? Is personal reflection open to honest evaluations?


      Your Friendly Philosopher,

      Bob T

      http://www.anecdotalstories.blogspot.com
      http://www.stairwaytoparadise.blogspot.com
      http://www.jazzmoods.blogspot.com
      http://www.holism4us.blogspot.com
      http://www.jennyandi.blogspot.com
      http://www.ethicswithoutwalls.blogspot.com

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    • eupraxis@aol.com
      ... I defer to Nietzsche s insight: Even the most courageous among us only rarely has the courage to face what he already knows. (TI, Max 2) Wil **************
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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        In a message dated 11/7/08 7:57:45 AM, rtherriault@... writes:
        > Is it possible to be honest when evaluating oneself? Is personal reflection
        > open to honest evaluations?
        >
        I defer to Nietzsche's insight: Even the most courageous among us only rarely
        has the courage to face what he already knows. (TI, Max 2)

        Wil


        **************
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tom
        Probably honesty in evaluating oneself is like most thing relative. Some are generally better than others; and probably everyone will have some blind spots
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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          Probably honesty in evaluating oneself is like most thing relative. Some are generally better than others; and probably everyone will have some blind spots hidden from view. Various introspective modalities be they meditation or psychanalysis tend to enable a person to become more concious of things to which they were unconcious. Freud said most of our mental processes are hidden from us, both the unconcious impulses, the id, and the unconcious judgements, the superego.

          Tom
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: eupraxis@...
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:18 AM
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Fw: Honesty is the only virtue


          In a message dated 11/7/08 7:57:45 AM, rtherriault@... writes:
          > Is it possible to be honest when evaluating oneself? Is personal reflection
          > open to honest evaluations?
          >
          I defer to Nietzsche's insight: Even the most courageous among us only rarely
          has the courage to face what he already knows. (TI, Max 2)

          Wil

          **************
          AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all
          other Holiday needs. Search Now.
          (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-f
          rom-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

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        • nitaisundara
          ... reflection open to honest evaluations? ... Only if one has cultivated and achieved detachment, which skews perception and inference.
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, <rtherriault@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: rtherriault@...
            > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:47 AM
            > To: existlist
            > Subject: Honesty is the only virtue
            >
            >
            > Is it possible to be honest when evaluating oneself? Is personal
            reflection open to honest evaluations?
            >
            >
            > Your Friendly Philosopher,
            >
            > Bob T


            Only if one has cultivated and achieved detachment, which skews
            perception and inference.
          • louise
            ... Do you mean that detachment frees one from attachment, which skews perception and inference? If so, I rather feel such a view is racist in the pejorative
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "nitaisundara" <nitaisundara@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, <rtherriault@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: rtherriault@
              > > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:47 AM
              > > To: existlist
              > > Subject: Honesty is the only virtue
              > >
              > >
              > > Is it possible to be honest when evaluating oneself? Is personal
              > reflection open to honest evaluations?
              > >
              > >
              > > Your Friendly Philosopher,
              > >
              > > Bob T
              >
              >
              > Only if one has cultivated and achieved detachment, which skews
              > perception and inference.
              >

              Do you mean that detachment frees one from attachment, which skews
              perception and inference? If so, I rather feel such a view is racist
              in the pejorative sense of the word. My instinct is that we are in
              territory that could be elucidated by careful readings of Kierkegaard
              and Heidegger. Honesty is in my experience extremely strenuous and
              stressful to achieve, but then I do not go by the way of detachment.

              Louise
            • nitaisundara
              ... Response: Precisely. Objectivity is compromised by being pre-invested in something. The pre-desired outcome skews the interpretation of the data. Along
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "nitaisundara" <nitaisundara@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, <rtherriault@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > From: rtherriault@
                > > > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:47 AM
                > > > To: existlist
                > > > Subject: Honesty is the only virtue
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Is it possible to be honest when evaluating oneself? Is personal
                > > reflection open to honest evaluations?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your Friendly Philosopher,
                > > >
                > > > Bob T
                > >
                > >
                > > Only if one has cultivated and achieved detachment, which skews
                > > perception and inference.
                > >
                >
                > Do you mean that detachment frees one from attachment, which skews
                > perception and inference?

                Response: Precisely. Objectivity is compromised by being pre-invested
                in something. The pre-desired outcome skews the interpretation of the
                data. Along those lines.

                > If so, I rather feel such a view is racist
                > in the pejorative sense of the word.

                Response: Please do elaborate, I am not following this..

                My instinct is that we are in
                > territory that could be elucidated by careful readings of Kierkegaard
                > and Heidegger.

                Honesty is in my experience extremely strenuous and
                > stressful to achieve, but then I do not go by the way of detachment.

                Response: I agree completely, but I think honesty is extremely
                difficult to achieve because detachment is. If we have no ulterior
                motive or consideration, what is standing in the way of honesty?
                According to the degree of information honesty may not be correct, but
                the motivation is nonetheless faultless, and there should be no
                resistance to further data of any type.

                This works on two ends, with detachment we can perceive objectively in
                the first person, and we can hear truth from others (for example,
                flaws in our own character) and digest/assess them rather than
                outright dismissal.

                Nitai
              • tom
                I d agree that honesty is possible to the degree that we are detached. To the extent that maintaining a certain view of ourself, others, or life is essential
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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                  I'd agree that honesty is possible to the degree that we are detached. To the extent that maintaining a certain view of ourself, others, or life is essential to our happiness, it is very likely that our minds at least in the areas we are emotionally vested in will be used primarily to rationalize continual justification for the view, rather than being used to move toward truth.

                  Tom
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: nitaisundara
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 4:08 PM
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: Fw: Honesty is the only virtue


                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "nitaisundara" <nitaisundara@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, <rtherriault@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > From: rtherriault@
                  > > > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:47 AM
                  > > > To: existlist
                  > > > Subject: Honesty is the only virtue
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Is it possible to be honest when evaluating oneself? Is personal
                  > > reflection open to honest evaluations?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Your Friendly Philosopher,
                  > > >
                  > > > Bob T
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Only if one has cultivated and achieved detachment, which skews
                  > > perception and inference.
                  > >
                  >
                  > Do you mean that detachment frees one from attachment, which skews
                  > perception and inference?

                  Response: Precisely. Objectivity is compromised by being pre-invested
                  in something. The pre-desired outcome skews the interpretation of the
                  data. Along those lines.

                  > If so, I rather feel such a view is racist
                  > in the pejorative sense of the word.

                  Response: Please do elaborate, I am not following this..

                  My instinct is that we are in
                  > territory that could be elucidated by careful readings of Kierkegaard
                  > and Heidegger.

                  Honesty is in my experience extremely strenuous and
                  > stressful to achieve, but then I do not go by the way of detachment.

                  Response: I agree completely, but I think honesty is extremely
                  difficult to achieve because detachment is. If we have no ulterior
                  motive or consideration, what is standing in the way of honesty?
                  According to the degree of information honesty may not be correct, but
                  the motivation is nonetheless faultless, and there should be no
                  resistance to further data of any type.

                  This works on two ends, with detachment we can perceive objectively in
                  the first person, and we can hear truth from others (for example,
                  flaws in our own character) and digest/assess them rather than
                  outright dismissal.

                  Nitai





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • louise
                  ... racist ... Kierkegaard ... Nitai, Now that I have sketched out, however inadequately, my long-repressed thoughts about indirect communication, with
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "nitaisundara" <nitaisundara@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, <rtherriault@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > From: rtherriault@
                    > > > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 8:47 AM
                    > > > To: existlist
                    > > > Subject: Honesty is the only virtue
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Is it possible to be honest when evaluating oneself? Is personal
                    > > reflection open to honest evaluations?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Your Friendly Philosopher,
                    > > >
                    > > > Bob T
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Only if one has cultivated and achieved detachment, which skews
                    > > perception and inference.
                    > >
                    >
                    > Do you mean that detachment frees one from attachment, which skews
                    > perception and inference? If so, I rather feel such a view is
                    racist
                    > in the pejorative sense of the word. My instinct is that we are in
                    > territory that could be elucidated by careful readings of
                    Kierkegaard
                    > and Heidegger. Honesty is in my experience extremely strenuous and
                    > stressful to achieve, but then I do not go by the way of detachment.
                    >
                    > Louise
                    >

                    Nitai,

                    Now that I have sketched out, however inadequately, my long-repressed
                    thoughts about indirect communication, with reference to what I find
                    in the work of Heidegger, a controversial thinker at this list as
                    elsewhere, I find myself guilty of just such an attribution as is
                    personally distressing to me. The fact that I could use a word like
                    racist, which is fairly brutally ontical, at least in its customary
                    meaning, when touching on matters ontological, is an indication of
                    how far I have drifted from the clarity I struggled so long to
                    retain. The fact is, my own difficulty with the binary thinking
                    which apparently prevails in the sophisticated worlds of academia and
                    the mass media, and possibly of the 'common people' also, who
                    assuredly have their own sophistications, might owe something to the
                    multiplicity of perspective which so readily crowds my consciousness,
                    and which in a less chaotic phase of my own life, drew me to the
                    spiritual traditions of the East. Once I began reading Nietzsche,
                    however, the spiritual link was broken, though the cultural
                    attraction remains. I very much wish to discuss race, in relation to
                    philosophical enquiry, but this does not seem in retrospect a very
                    intelligent way of re-opening the question.
                    I suppose that what I intended, was to challenge your apparent
                    exclusivism, in stating that one may achieve honesty of evaluation
                    only by practising detachment.

                    Louise
                  • louise
                    Honesty is in my experience extremely strenuous and stressful to achieve, but then I do not go by the way of detachment. [Louise] I agree completely, but I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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                      "Honesty is in my experience extremely strenuous and stressful to
                      achieve, but then I do not go by the way of detachment." [Louise]

                      "I agree completely, but I think honesty is extremely difficult to
                      achieve because detachment is. If we have no ulterior
                      motive or consideration, what is standing in the way of honesty?
                      According to the degree of information honesty may not be correct, but
                      the motivation is nonetheless faultless, and there should be no
                      resistance to further data of any type." [Nitai]

                      First of all, someone else may have the ulterior motive, to starve
                      you of the information you need, to make an honest appraisal. This
                      concerns the influence of what comes to us all by the channels of
                      communication, whether professional or private. Secondly, the
                      question is framed as though it were taken for granted that self-
                      interest may be taken to be of an invariable form. What Nietzsche
                      calls the intellectual conscience, or indeed what a traditional
                      religious believer may experience, of fear and trembling before the
                      law or person of his god, mediates the perception of honesty. That
                      is, there may be willingness to embrace what to those without an
                      equivalent passion would be merely pain, or a delusory masochistic
                      virtue. Thirdly, emotional trauma can interfere with perception in
                      such a way that a phrase like 'ulterior motive' is not adequate to
                      describe the complexity of self-deception. And the phrase self-
                      deception is not really adequate either. Fourthly, there is the
                      question of social integration, and its relationship to bad faith, a
                      form of dishonesty, which in different circumstances is treated very
                      differently by surrounding society. Sometimes such bad faith is
                      expected and rewarded, sometimes loathed and punished. Louise
                    • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                      ... detachment and involvement can be related to different types of receptive and expressive truth. one can also be in both states simultaneously - alert and
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 7, 2008
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                        > I'd agree that honesty is possible to the degree that we are detached. To the extent that maintaining a certain view of ourself, others, or life is essential to our happiness, it is very likely that our minds at least in the areas we are emotionally vested in will be used primarily to rationalize continual justification for the view, rather than being used to move toward truth.
                        > Tom

                        detachment and involvement can be related to different types of
                        receptive and expressive truth. one can also be in both states
                        simultaneously - alert and processing information as it presents itself,
                        while also caring.

                        once one senses the limits of communication, even when strongly
                        motivated, communicating truth to another not necessarily similarly
                        receiving and processing, may be difficult, even if it is body language
                        with a universal base. one doesn't need theory to have a sense of
                        having opened oneself to another and shared a meaningful experience or
                        to experience an aha insight. but if strongly meaningful experience
                        turns out to be false, it may be life-shattering, requiring major
                        cognitive and psychological restructuring.

                        animals have a proto-sense of fairness/ truth, even as they also have
                        the capacity to deceive. animals are also curious and deception gets in
                        the way of discovering. curiosity and a thirst for knowledge can cause
                        one to be annoyed at lies and deception that get in the way of
                        understanding: life is already too short with so much to discover
                        without wasting time being sidetracked in unproductive unsatisfying
                        games of deceit.

                        aija
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