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Ancient themes

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  • louise
    Serious attention to the cultures of the classical world, and in particular to the glory that was Greece, offers some kind of respite, at least for myself,
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 8, 2008
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      Serious attention to the cultures of the classical world, and in
      particular to the glory that was Greece, offers some kind of respite,
      at least for myself, from the ghastly misunderstandings that have
      recently haunted the list. Of course, I have been branded insane
      before now, if my interpretation does not mislead me. So for the
      present I favour quotation from that great book by E.R.Dodds, "The
      Greeks and the Irrational". The third chapter is titled, 'The
      Blessings of Madness'.

      ~ "Our greatest blessings," says Socrates in the *Phaedrus*, "come to
      us by way of madness": *ta megista ton agathon hemin gignetai dia
      manias*. That is, of course, a conscious paradox. No doubt it
      startled the fourth-century Athenian reader hardly less than it
      startles us; for it is implied a little further on that most people
      in Plato's time regarded madness as something discreditable, an
      *oneidos*. But the father of Western rationalism is not represented
      as maintaining the general proposition that it is better to be mad
      than sane, sick than sound. He qualifies his paradox with the words
      *theia mentoi dosei didomenes*, "provided the madness is given us by
      divine gift." And he proceeds to distinguish four types of
      this "divine madness", which are produced, he says, "by a divinely
      wrought change in our customary social norms" (*upo theias exallages
      ton eiothoton nomimon*). The four types are:
      1) Prophetic madness, whose patron god is Apollo.
      2) Telestic or ritual madness, whose patron is Dionysus.
      3) Poetic madness, inspired by the Muses.
      4) Erotic madness, inspired by Aphrodite and Eros. ~

      Dodds goes on to explain that he wishes to concentrate on evidence
      which may help us to find answers to two specific questions.

      ~ One is the historical question: how did the Greeks come by the
      beliefs which underlie Plato's classification, and how far did they
      modify them under the influence of advancing rationalism? The other
      question is psychological: how far can the mental states denoted by
      Plato's "prophetic" and "ritual" madness be recognised as identical
      with any states known to modern psychology and anthropology? Both
      questions are difficult ... ~

      The author goes on to say:

      ~ Before approaching Plato's four "divine" types, I must first say
      something about his general distinction between "divine" madness and
      the ordinary kind which is caused by disease. The distinction is of
      course older than Plato. From Herodotus we learn that the madness of
      Cleomenes, in which most people saw the godsent punishment of
      sacrilege, was put down by his own countrymen to the effects of heavy
      drinking. And although Herodotus refuses to accept this prosaic
      explanation in Cleomenes' case, he is inclined to explain the madness
      of Cambyses as due to congenital epilepsy, and adds the very sensible
      remark that when the body is seriously deranged it is not surprising
      that the mind should be affected also. ~

      The clarity of this writing, about such a complex subject, is
      something for which I feel immense gratitude. As someone caught in
      the kindly meshes of the modern mental health system in the UK, it
      has me wondering just what psychiatry really is. And various other
      questions arise, which one day I might be able to formulate, or,
      better, shape in some more artistic manner. Hope springs eternal ...

      Louise
    • chris lofting
      ... all VERY EASY to do if you understand how we categorise basd on how our brains seed all meaning - IOW a little neuroscience as covered in my Categories of
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 8, 2008
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        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of louise
        > Sent: Tuesday, 9 September 2008 10:13 AM
        > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [existlist] Ancient themes
        >
        > Serious attention to the cultures of the classical world, and
        > in particular to the glory that was Greece, offers some kind
        > of respite, at least for myself, from the ghastly
        > misunderstandings that have recently haunted the list. Of
        > course, I have been branded insane before now, if my
        > interpretation does not mislead me. So for the present I
        > favour quotation from that great book by E.R.Dodds, "The
        > Greeks and the Irrational". The third chapter is titled,
        > 'The Blessings of Madness'.
        >
        > ~ "Our greatest blessings," says Socrates in the *Phaedrus*,
        > "come to us by way of madness": *ta megista ton agathon hemin
        > gignetai dia manias*. That is, of course, a conscious
        > paradox. No doubt it startled the fourth-century Athenian
        > reader hardly less than it startles us; for it is implied a
        > little further on that most people in Plato's time regarded
        > madness as something discreditable, an *oneidos*. But the
        > father of Western rationalism is not represented as
        > maintaining the general proposition that it is better to be
        > mad than sane, sick than sound. He qualifies his paradox
        > with the words *theia mentoi dosei didomenes*, "provided the
        > madness is given us by divine gift." And he proceeds to
        > distinguish four types of this "divine madness", which are
        > produced, he says, "by a divinely wrought change in our
        > customary social norms" (*upo theias exallages ton eiothoton
        > nomimon*). The four types are:
        > 1) Prophetic madness, whose patron god is Apollo.
        > 2) Telestic or ritual madness, whose patron is Dionysus.
        > 3) Poetic madness, inspired by the Muses.
        > 4) Erotic madness, inspired by Aphrodite and Eros. ~
        >
        > Dodds goes on to explain that he wishes to concentrate on
        > evidence which may help us to find answers to two specific questions.
        >
        > ~ One is the historical question: how did the Greeks come by
        > the beliefs which underlie Plato's classification, and how
        > far did they modify them under the influence of advancing
        > rationalism? The other question is psychological: how far
        > can the mental states denoted by Plato's "prophetic" and
        > "ritual" madness be recognised as identical with any states
        > known to modern psychology and anthropology? Both questions
        > are difficult ... ~
        >

        all VERY EASY to do if you understand how we categorise basd on how our
        brains seed all meaning - IOW a little neuroscience as covered in my
        "Categories of Mediation" material. The brains of the ancient Greeks were
        still like ours and so used the same oscillations in the brain to
        categorise.

        The general qualities of being fall into a category space where:

        Apollo maps to the Choleric, a focus on serving God, values driven,
        religious, over-sensitive, huamanitarian. In modern times this is the MBTI
        temperament of a NF (intuitive feelers), identity seekers

        Dionysian maps to Sanguine, a focus on self-serving, artisans, the cycloid
        (concrete, sensation seeking). Risk and independence driven, too excitable,
        manic, imaginative, innovative. In modern times this is the MBTI temperament
        of an SP (sensing perceiving).

        The other two are in fact extensions of the above, where the erotic link
        stems from Dionysian category and the poetic from the Apollo category.

        Overall the above categories are a bit short and spans a level of type
        categories. The core four are in fact:

        Apollonian (serve God), Epimethean (serve man, guardians, can be too
        serious), Promethean (rationals, science focus, can be too insensitive),
        Dionysian (self serving, manic)

        These derive from self-referencing the general qualities mapped to
        Apollo/Dionysus ( modern form NF/SP) - we cover:

        identity seekers (NF), security seekers(SJ), solution seekers(NT), sensation
        seekers(SP)

        The next level covers more self-referencing to give us more modern terms of
        persona (all 'normal' or not) - to use Keirsey terms (they come in pairs due
        to the self-referencing of a dichotomy by the brains oscillations across
        differentiating/integrating):

        Most integrating
        ............................................................................
        .......Most differentiating
        Advocates, Mentors(muses) | Conservators, Monitors | Engineers, Organisers |
        Players (lovers not fighters), Operators (fighters)

        My material extends all of this to 64 and if need be on to 4096 and on to
        16+ million - but this level is too much! the 64 level is 'just right' and
        reflects the properties and methods of language.

        Note that the self-referencing leads to all eight above being found in EACH
        at the level of 64 categories (eight octets). These 64 categories contribute
        to the full spectrum of EACH category through use of analogy.

        Any form of neurotic/psychotic state will 'fit' into this spectrum other
        than in severe psychotic states that can present as paradoxical due to
        'unique' wiring that is disabling. the mania aspect present in all is more
        often seen as a 'divine' form of expression and so the differentiation of
        divine from disease.

        A generic category of 'mental' states mapped to the above:

        Advocates - amnesic or delusive hysterics
        Mentors - seizure hysterics ('Midas touch')
        Conservators - anxious or melancholic depressives
        monitors - hypocholeric or neurasthenic depressives
        engineers - inhibited obsessives
        organisers - driven obsessives
        players - masochistics
        operators - manics

        All of these categories come out of the ONE set of categories derived by the
        neurology at the unconscious level and then 'grounded' by consciousness
        using words to link the universal qualities to a local context. The lack of
        understanding about what is going on 'in here' means a lot of ad-hoc
        development and differences in ordering etc to give us the unique
        perspectives of local contexts but behind all of that uniqueness is a level
        of sameness sourced in our neurology.

        the DEPTH is an issue in that to get to the language-producing level (use of
        analogies etc) you have to go to 6 levels of iteration (64 categories). A
        this level we can acquire a spectrum of each type.

        The 'ancients' had no idea of the science-derived data we have these days
        and so their thinking was 'limited' to development of categories a bit short
        in precision. With depth comes their use as analogies is describing each
        category.

        SO - Louise - behind ANY culture's local categorisation systems you will
        find the ONE methodology, self-referencing, but done in an ad-hoc manner and
        so some areas well fleshed out and going down a number of levels and other
        areas seemingly ignored/not-realised due to contextual biases in behaviours
        etc.
        Go deep enough and it will all join up and in doing so allow for finer
        descriptions of each category through reference to all of them.

        Chris.
      • louise
        OK, Chris. Have fun. End of conversation, for me. Louise ... questions. ... our ... Greeks were ... the MBTI ... cycloid ... excitable, ... temperament ...
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 9, 2008
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          OK, Chris. Have fun. End of conversation, for me. Louise

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "chris lofting" <lofting@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of louise
          > > Sent: Tuesday, 9 September 2008 10:13 AM
          > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [existlist] Ancient themes
          > >
          > > Serious attention to the cultures of the classical world, and
          > > in particular to the glory that was Greece, offers some kind
          > > of respite, at least for myself, from the ghastly
          > > misunderstandings that have recently haunted the list. Of
          > > course, I have been branded insane before now, if my
          > > interpretation does not mislead me. So for the present I
          > > favour quotation from that great book by E.R.Dodds, "The
          > > Greeks and the Irrational". The third chapter is titled,
          > > 'The Blessings of Madness'.
          > >
          > > ~ "Our greatest blessings," says Socrates in the *Phaedrus*,
          > > "come to us by way of madness": *ta megista ton agathon hemin
          > > gignetai dia manias*. That is, of course, a conscious
          > > paradox. No doubt it startled the fourth-century Athenian
          > > reader hardly less than it startles us; for it is implied a
          > > little further on that most people in Plato's time regarded
          > > madness as something discreditable, an *oneidos*. But the
          > > father of Western rationalism is not represented as
          > > maintaining the general proposition that it is better to be
          > > mad than sane, sick than sound. He qualifies his paradox
          > > with the words *theia mentoi dosei didomenes*, "provided the
          > > madness is given us by divine gift." And he proceeds to
          > > distinguish four types of this "divine madness", which are
          > > produced, he says, "by a divinely wrought change in our
          > > customary social norms" (*upo theias exallages ton eiothoton
          > > nomimon*). The four types are:
          > > 1) Prophetic madness, whose patron god is Apollo.
          > > 2) Telestic or ritual madness, whose patron is Dionysus.
          > > 3) Poetic madness, inspired by the Muses.
          > > 4) Erotic madness, inspired by Aphrodite and Eros. ~
          > >
          > > Dodds goes on to explain that he wishes to concentrate on
          > > evidence which may help us to find answers to two specific
          questions.
          > >
          > > ~ One is the historical question: how did the Greeks come by
          > > the beliefs which underlie Plato's classification, and how
          > > far did they modify them under the influence of advancing
          > > rationalism? The other question is psychological: how far
          > > can the mental states denoted by Plato's "prophetic" and
          > > "ritual" madness be recognised as identical with any states
          > > known to modern psychology and anthropology? Both questions
          > > are difficult ... ~
          > >
          >
          > all VERY EASY to do if you understand how we categorise basd on how
          our
          > brains seed all meaning - IOW a little neuroscience as covered in my
          > "Categories of Mediation" material. The brains of the ancient
          Greeks were
          > still like ours and so used the same oscillations in the brain to
          > categorise.
          >
          > The general qualities of being fall into a category space where:
          >
          > Apollo maps to the Choleric, a focus on serving God, values driven,
          > religious, over-sensitive, huamanitarian. In modern times this is
          the MBTI
          > temperament of a NF (intuitive feelers), identity seekers
          >
          > Dionysian maps to Sanguine, a focus on self-serving, artisans, the
          cycloid
          > (concrete, sensation seeking). Risk and independence driven, too
          excitable,
          > manic, imaginative, innovative. In modern times this is the MBTI
          temperament
          > of an SP (sensing perceiving).
          >
          > The other two are in fact extensions of the above, where the erotic
          link
          > stems from Dionysian category and the poetic from the Apollo
          category.
          >
          > Overall the above categories are a bit short and spans a level of
          type
          > categories. The core four are in fact:
          >
          > Apollonian (serve God), Epimethean (serve man, guardians, can be too
          > serious), Promethean (rationals, science focus, can be too
          insensitive),
          > Dionysian (self serving, manic)
          >
          > These derive from self-referencing the general qualities mapped to
          > Apollo/Dionysus ( modern form NF/SP) - we cover:
          >
          > identity seekers (NF), security seekers(SJ), solution seekers(NT),
          sensation
          > seekers(SP)
          >
          > The next level covers more self-referencing to give us more modern
          terms of
          > persona (all 'normal' or not) - to use Keirsey terms (they come in
          pairs due
          > to the self-referencing of a dichotomy by the brains oscillations
          across
          > differentiating/integrating):
          >
          > Most integrating
          > ....................................................................
          ........
          > .......Most differentiating
          > Advocates, Mentors(muses) | Conservators, Monitors | Engineers,
          Organisers |
          > Players (lovers not fighters), Operators (fighters)
          >
          > My material extends all of this to 64 and if need be on to 4096 and
          on to
          > 16+ million - but this level is too much! the 64 level is 'just
          right' and
          > reflects the properties and methods of language.
          >
          > Note that the self-referencing leads to all eight above being found
          in EACH
          > at the level of 64 categories (eight octets). These 64 categories
          contribute
          > to the full spectrum of EACH category through use of analogy.
          >
          > Any form of neurotic/psychotic state will 'fit' into this spectrum
          other
          > than in severe psychotic states that can present as paradoxical due
          to
          > 'unique' wiring that is disabling. the mania aspect present in all
          is more
          > often seen as a 'divine' form of expression and so the
          differentiation of
          > divine from disease.
          >
          > A generic category of 'mental' states mapped to the above:
          >
          > Advocates - amnesic or delusive hysterics
          > Mentors - seizure hysterics ('Midas touch')
          > Conservators - anxious or melancholic depressives
          > monitors - hypocholeric or neurasthenic depressives
          > engineers - inhibited obsessives
          > organisers - driven obsessives
          > players - masochistics
          > operators - manics
          >
          > All of these categories come out of the ONE set of categories
          derived by the
          > neurology at the unconscious level and then 'grounded' by
          consciousness
          > using words to link the universal qualities to a local context. The
          lack of
          > understanding about what is going on 'in here' means a lot of ad-hoc
          > development and differences in ordering etc to give us the unique
          > perspectives of local contexts but behind all of that uniqueness is
          a level
          > of sameness sourced in our neurology.
          >
          > the DEPTH is an issue in that to get to the language-producing
          level (use of
          > analogies etc) you have to go to 6 levels of iteration (64
          categories). A
          > this level we can acquire a spectrum of each type.
          >
          > The 'ancients' had no idea of the science-derived data we have
          these days
          > and so their thinking was 'limited' to development of categories a
          bit short
          > in precision. With depth comes their use as analogies is describing
          each
          > category.
          >
          > SO - Louise - behind ANY culture's local categorisation systems you
          will
          > find the ONE methodology, self-referencing, but done in an ad-hoc
          manner and
          > so some areas well fleshed out and going down a number of levels
          and other
          > areas seemingly ignored/not-realised due to contextual biases in
          behaviours
          > etc.
          > Go deep enough and it will all join up and in doing so allow for
          finer
          > descriptions of each category through reference to all of them.
          >
          > Chris.
          >
        • chris lofting
          ... is this list a form of therapy for you? for anyone else? does it work as a place you feel safe ? do you prefer being existentialist or doing
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 9, 2008
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:existlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of louise
            > Sent: Tuesday, 9 September 2008 6:54 PM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [existlist] Re: Ancient themes to Modern themes
            >
            > OK, Chris. Have fun. End of conversation, for me. Louise
            >

            is this list a form of therapy for you? for anyone else?

            does it work as a place you feel 'safe'?

            do you prefer 'being' existentialist or 'doing' existentialism? or is it all
            linked up as an existentialist continuum?

            Do you understand that 'mindless' evolution is more pragmatist and so open
            to using existentialist perspective when necessary (as in some context
            pushes buttons that 'fit' an existentialist perspective and when the button
            pushing changes you change or fight it), but recognising that there are
            contexts where it does not fit and so some alternative is required for 'best
            fit'?

            Do you understand that the fitting of universals into a local context
            without customisation elicits neuroses? - as does generalising a particular
            without customisation to the general also causes 'issues'?

            Chris.
          • eupraxis@aol.com
            Chris, Please, move on. Wil ... ************** Psssst...Have you heard the news? There s a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 9, 2008
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              Chris,

              Please, move on.

              Wil

              In a message dated 9/9/08 6:03:18 AM, lofting@... writes:


              >
              > is this list a form of therapy for you? for anyone else?
              >
              > does it work as a place you feel 'safe'?
              >
              > do you prefer 'being' existentialist or 'doing' existentialism? or is it all
              > linked up as an existentialist continuum?
              >
              > Do you understand that 'mindless' evolution is more pragmatist and so open
              > to using existentialist perspective when necessary (as in some context
              > pushes buttons that 'fit' an existentialist perspective and when the button
              > pushing changes you change or fight it), but recognising that there are
              > contexts where it does not fit and so some alternative is required for 'best
              > fit'?
              >
              > Do you understand that the fitting of universals into a local context
              > without customisation elicits neuroses? - as does generalising a particular
              > without customisation to the general also causes 'issues'?
              >
              > Chris.
              >




              **************
              Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,
              plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.

              (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)


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