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Awareness of the absurd

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  • Jewel
    Dear A.L.B.B., If I were a tree or a cat, I would simply belong to the world. Camus certainly recognized order, chaos, and reason. To paraphrase the old
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 31 9:34 AM
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      Dear A.L.B.B.,

      If I were a tree or a cat, I would simply belong to the world. Camus
      certainly recognized order, chaos, and reason. To paraphrase the old
      horse/water dynamic: You can lead people to the absurd, but you can't
      make them see it. But for those who do, Camus argued that awareness
      increases and preserves the break between the world and the mind. We
      might head full into it with revolt and lucidity.

      So long ago we can't remember, someone/thing demanded we multiply on
      and seize dominion of the Earth. It was probably supposed to be a
      short term strategy, but the "intelligent" designers didn't leave us
      the specs. Enough of the "scientific" mysteries and "inherent" moral
      order nonsense! You see, I sit on a different fence, nearly cut in
      two. It hurts so good, but it doesn't have to make any sense at all.

      Jewel
    • a_living_breathing_being
      Jewel said: If I were a tree or a cat, I would simply belong to the world. A.L.B.B. The story I make up about you is . . . I see your point about
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 31 2:24 PM
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        Jewel said: If I were a tree or a cat, I would simply belong to the
        world.

        A.L.B.B. The story I make up about you is . . . I see your point
        about being-a-tree or being-a-cat, so you may live like a blank-eyed
        Salamander basking in the ineffable sunlight and not be attempting a
        rational discussion at all; and since you're making some attempt at
        being rational, why do you knock it at the same time?. Is there some
        pressing condition of pain that underscores your conviction?
        Philosophy / Existentialism is a tradition of reason, for those who
        value the exercise of thinking minds.

        Jewel said: Enough of the "scientific" mysteries and "inherent" moral
        > order nonsense! You see, I sit on a different fence, nearly cut in
        > two. It hurts so good, but it doesn't have to make any sense at all.
        >
        A.L.B.B. I agree, you do not "make. . .[ much]. . . sense at all"
        unless you're speaking metaphorically about being "cut in two". I've
        said nothing at all in my post about 'moral order'. And I apologize
        if you are literally in pain, suffering actual 'cuts' and 'hurts'.
        >
      • Jewel
        ALBB: You don t recognize the works of Camus or Joyce and you want to argue absurdism? Jewel
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 31 3:16 PM
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          ALBB:

          You don't recognize the works of Camus or Joyce and you want to argue
          absurdism?

          Jewel
        • Exist List Moderator
          ... Glad I m not the only person to immediately think... about time someone quoted the literature! - C. S. Wyatt I am what I am at this moment, not what I was
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 31 3:33 PM
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            On Jul 31, 2008, at 17:16, Jewel wrote:

            > ALBB:
            >
            > You don't recognize the works of Camus or Joyce and you want to argue
            > absurdism?


            Glad I'm not the only person to immediately think... about time
            someone quoted the literature!

            - C. S. Wyatt
            I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
            that I shall be.
            http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
            http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
          • a_living_breathing_being
            I m so sorry; here you go . . . I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn t, than live my life as if there isn t and die
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 31 11:10 PM
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              I'm so sorry; here you go . . .

              "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out
              there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out
              there is. Albert Camus



              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
              <existlist1@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Jul 31, 2008, at 17:16, Jewel wrote:
              >
              > > ALBB:
              > >
              > > You don't recognize the works of Camus or Joyce and you want to
              argue
              > > absurdism?
              >
              >
              > Glad I'm not the only person to immediately think... about time
              > someone quoted the literature!
              >
              > - C. S. Wyatt
              > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
              all
              > that I shall be.
              > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
              > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
              >
            • Exist List Moderator
              ... That is not a Camus quote -- It is a paraphrase of Blaise Pascal that has taken numerous forms and been quoted by several thinkers, including Pasteur.
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 1, 2008
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                On Aug 01, 2008, at 1:10, a_living_breathing_being wrote:

                > I'm so sorry; here you go . . .
                >
                > "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out
                > there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out
                > there is. Albert Camus


                That is not a Camus quote -- It is a paraphrase of Blaise Pascal that
                has taken numerous forms and been quoted by several thinkers,
                including Pasteur.

                "Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what
                harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false?
                If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then,
                without hesitation, that He exists."

                Camus never quoted this, not even in his journals, not even to argue
                against the point.


                - C. S. Wyatt
                I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
                that I shall be.
                http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
              • Exist List Moderator
                Wow, I am further astonished to find that at least a dozen or more Web sites list this as a Camus quote. I am beyond stunned... I located this same quote
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 1, 2008
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                  Wow, I am further astonished to find that at least a dozen or more Web
                  sites list this as a Camus quote. I am beyond stunned...

                  I located this same quote attributed to C. S. Lewis, Pascal, Pasteur,
                  Einstein, and several other individuals.

                  And people wonder why I won't let students use Wikipedia!

                  If you cannot cite the work and page, it probably isn't an accurate
                  quote.


                  On Aug 01, 2008, at 21:05, Exist List Moderator wrote:

                  > On Aug 01, 2008, at 1:10, a_living_breathing_being wrote:
                  >
                  >> I'm so sorry; here you go . . .
                  >>
                  >> "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out
                  >> there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out
                  >> there is. Albert Camus
                  >
                  >
                  > That is not a Camus quote -- It is a paraphrase of Blaise Pascal that
                  > has taken numerous forms and been quoted by several thinkers,
                  > including Pasteur.
                  >
                  > "Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what
                  > harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false?
                  > If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then,
                  > without hesitation, that He exists."
                  >
                  > Camus never quoted this, not even in his journals, not even to argue
                  > against the point.
                  >
                  >
                  > - C. S. Wyatt
                  > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
                  > that I shall be.
                  > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                  > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                  > nothing!
                  >
                  > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  - C. S. Wyatt
                  I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
                  that I shall be.
                  http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                  http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                • Jewel
                  ... wrote: Wow, I am further astonished to find that at least a dozen or more Web sites list this as a Camus quote. I am beyond stunned... I
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 2, 2008
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                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
                    <existlist1@...> wrote:

                    Wow, I am further astonished to find that at least a dozen or more Web
                    sites list this as a Camus quote. I am beyond stunned...

                    I located this same quote attributed to C. S. Lewis, Pascal, Pasteur,
                    Einstein, and several other individuals.

                    And people wonder why I won't let students use Wikipedia!

                    If you cannot cite the work and page, it probably isn't an accurate
                    quote.
                    **********

                    Much philosophical literature is laced with ironic expression; nuanced
                    with the absurd; hammered by hyperbole and often misappropriated by
                    those who embrace an opposing idea. I've seen Nietzsche's -what does
                    not kill me makes me stronger- attributed to Martin Luther King, Jr.
                    and popular songwriters. And if one were to even slightly deconstruct
                    the Nietzsche and Pascal quotes, especially out of context, they fall
                    apart logically. Obviously, you could be made weaker by forces which
                    nearly kill you. And you might live as if gods are real, yet despair,
                    die and "be" oblivious to your reasons. These are merely expressions
                    of authors' emotional commitment to the particular ideas they are
                    defending, not literal facts.

                    Now I'm out of here...wine, cheese, cherries and Cyrano in Egg Harbor.

                    Jewel
                  • a_living_breathing_being
                    OK, I ll admit it, I got it from Wikipedia. But regardless of the correct source, it is the message I like. ... Web ... Pasteur, ... accurate ... find out ...
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 2, 2008
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                      OK, I'll admit it, I got it from Wikipedia. But regardless of the
                      correct source, it is the message I like.

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
                      <existlist1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Wow, I am further astonished to find that at least a dozen or more
                      Web
                      > sites list this as a Camus quote. I am beyond stunned...
                      >
                      > I located this same quote attributed to C. S. Lewis, Pascal,
                      Pasteur,
                      > Einstein, and several other individuals.
                      >
                      > And people wonder why I won't let students use Wikipedia!
                      >
                      > If you cannot cite the work and page, it probably isn't an
                      accurate
                      > quote.
                      >
                      >
                      > On Aug 01, 2008, at 21:05, Exist List Moderator wrote:
                      >
                      > > On Aug 01, 2008, at 1:10, a_living_breathing_being wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> I'm so sorry; here you go . . .
                      > >>
                      > >> "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to
                      find out
                      > >> there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find
                      out
                      > >> there is. Albert Camus
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > That is not a Camus quote -- It is a paraphrase of Blaise Pascal
                      that
                      > > has taken numerous forms and been quoted by several thinkers,
                      > > including Pasteur.
                      > >
                      > > "Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what
                      > > harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves
                      false?
                      > > If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager,
                      then,
                      > > without hesitation, that He exists."
                      > >
                      > > Camus never quoted this, not even in his journals, not even to
                      argue
                      > > against the point.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > - C. S. Wyatt
                      > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
                      all
                      > > that I shall be.
                      > > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                      > > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                      > > nothing!
                      > >
                      > > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/existYahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > - C. S. Wyatt
                      > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
                      all
                      > that I shall be.
                      > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                      > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                      >
                    • eupraxis@aol.com
                      In a message dated 8/2/08 10:36:00 AM, a_living_breathing_being@yahoo.com ... What a statement of bad faith and intellectual cowardice! I am always amazed by
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 2, 2008
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                        In a message dated 8/2/08 10:36:00 AM, a_living_breathing_being@...
                        writes:
                        > OK, I'll admit it, I got it ["I would rather live my life as if there is a
                        > God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and
                        > die to find out there is" Camuc (sic)] from Wikipedia. But regardless of the
                        > correct source, it is the message I like.
                        >

                        What a statement of bad faith and intellectual cowardice! I am always amazed
                        by what many think comprises an existentialist position. But to (supposedly)
                        get a quote from Wikapedia in response to a challenge that you have no
                        background or appreciation of Camus, and to come up with this self-serving slogan for
                        the brain-dead is just unforgivable. This is just one more indication that
                        those dependent on God have no sense of morality when it comes to objectivity and
                        intellectual conscience.

                        Wil



                        **************
                        Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                        Read reviews on AOL Autos.

                        (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • louise
                        ... there is a ... there isn t and ... regardless of the ... always amazed ... (supposedly) ... no ... serving slogan for ... indication that ... objectivity
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 2, 2008
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                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                          >
                          > In a message dated 8/2/08 10:36:00 AM, a_living_breathing_being@...
                          > writes:
                          > > OK, I'll admit it, I got it ["I would rather live my life as if
                          there is a
                          > > God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if
                          there isn't and
                          > > die to find out there is" Camuc (sic)] from Wikipedia. But
                          regardless of the
                          > > correct source, it is the message I like.
                          > >
                          >
                          > What a statement of bad faith and intellectual cowardice! I am
                          always amazed
                          > by what many think comprises an existentialist position. But to
                          (supposedly)
                          > get a quote from Wikapedia in response to a challenge that you have
                          no
                          > background or appreciation of Camus, and to come up with this self-
                          serving slogan for
                          > the brain-dead is just unforgivable. This is just one more
                          indication that
                          > those dependent on God have no sense of morality when it comes to
                          objectivity and
                          > intellectual conscience.
                          >
                          > Wil

                          I know what you mean, Wil, but the confession was an honest one.
                          Long live the true statement of perspective, including your own
                          robust correctives. Louise
                        • eupraxis@aol.com
                          ... Yes, at least there was that. Wil ************** Looking for a car that s sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 2, 2008
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                            In a message dated 8/2/08 6:02:17 PM, hecubatoher@... writes:
                            > I know what you mean, Wil, but the confession was an honest one.
                            >
                            Yes, at least there was that.

                            Wil



                            **************
                            Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                            Read reviews on AOL Autos.

                            (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • louise
                            [ALBB] I m so sorry; here you go . . . I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn t, than live my life as if there isn t
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 5, 2008
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                              [ALBB]
                              I'm so sorry; here you go . . .

                              "I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out
                              there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out
                              there is. Albert Camus

                              [CSW]
                              That is not a Camus quote -- It is a paraphrase of Blaise Pascal that
                              has taken numerous forms and been quoted by several thinkers,
                              including Pasteur.

                              "Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what
                              harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false?
                              If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then,
                              without hesitation, that He exists."

                              Louise
                              From an aesthetic point of view, I have always found the Pascalian
                              wager quite repulsive. To gamble on truth is to make a rational
                              choice, as though belief could be manufactured. Possibly it can.
                              Human beings differ considerably. At any rate I can see no
                              connection between what Pascal reckons to be faith, and what
                              Kierkegaard means by the leap. Scepticism as a starting-point always
                              has my trust. Even when Voltaire is not enjoyable to read, he proves
                              most sound.
                            • Jewel
                              ... From an aesthetic point of view, I have always found the Pascalian wager quite repulsive. To gamble on truth is to make a rational choice, as though belief
                              Message 14 of 15 , Aug 5, 2008
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                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:

                                From an aesthetic point of view, I have always found the Pascalian
                                wager quite repulsive. To gamble on truth is to make a rational
                                choice, as though belief could be manufactured. Possibly it can.
                                Human beings differ considerably. At any rate I can see no
                                connection between what Pascal reckons to be faith, and what
                                Kierkegaard means by the leap. Scepticism as a starting-point always
                                has my trust. Even when Voltaire is not enjoyable to read, he proves
                                most sound.
                                **********

                                Skepticism has firm footing in Camus's theory of the absurd, and who
                                has greater need of it than the person about to plunge to their
                                literal death? Living isn't a leap or a gamble. It might be the
                                ultimate skepticism.

                                "In a man's attachment to life there is something stronger than all
                                the ills of the world. the body's judgment is as good as the mind's,
                                and the body shrinks from annihilation. We get into the habit of
                                living before acquiring the habit of thinking. In that race that daily
                                hastens us towards death, the body maintains its irreparable lead. In
                                short the essence of the contradiction lies in what I shall call the
                                act of eluding because it is both more and less than diversion in the
                                Pascalian sense. Eluding is the invariable game. The typical act of
                                eluding, the fatal evasion that constitutes the third theme of this
                                essay, is hope. Hope of another life one must 'deserve' or trickery of
                                those who live not for life itself but for some great idea that will
                                transcend it, refine it, give it meaning, and betray itÂ…The leap does
                                not represent an extreme danger as Kierkegaard would like it to do.
                                The danger, on the contrary, lies in the subtle instant that precedes
                                the leap. Being able to remain on that dizzying crest--that is
                                integrity and the rest is subterfuge. I know also that never has
                                helplessness inspired such harmonies as those of Kierkegaard. But if
                                helplessness has its place in the indifferent landscapes of history,
                                it has none in a reasoning who exigence is now known." (Myth of
                                Sisyphus, Albert Camus)

                                Camus feared that existentialism, which he confused with anarchistic
                                nihilism, logically led to suicide. He recognized that faith can lead
                                to suicide as well; and he thought people who lived without hope for
                                eternity lived more responsibly, because this life is what we have
                                now. Only we can create it.

                                Jewel
                              • louise
                                ... Fatigue at the time of composition prevented me from seeing the carelessness of this remark. In fact, I have been engaged with reading the novel,
                                Message 15 of 15 , Aug 6, 2008
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                                  > Even when Voltaire is not enjoyable to read, he proves most sound.

                                  Fatigue at the time of composition prevented me from seeing the
                                  carelessness of this remark. In fact, I have been engaged with reading
                                  the novel, "Candide", for the second time, and meant only to express my
                                  appreciation for the author's genius in this respect. Although I will
                                  have encountered the occasional quotation from other works, there is no
                                  other book of his that I have read. Louise
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