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held hostage by fear

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  • louise
    As I have already implied, there is so much that I don t understand, about how normal people view the world, how they relate to the media universe, what
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 8, 2008
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      As I have already implied, there is so much that I don't understand,
      about how 'normal' people view the world, how they relate to the media
      universe, what variously the word 'God' might mean to them. In
      addition, for all I have been appalled and terrified, as the years
      passed, by what I found out about international finance and covert
      diplomacy, I was unable to understand the basics of economics or
      believe myself fit to join with others, in order to be motivated to put
      in the necessary work. This was mainly because, ironically, I did not
      believe in Damascene conversions, and that my history as a liberal
      would always prevent me being fully accepted by other patriots, with
      their average, 'healthy' instincts, their strong-mindedness.
      It was also impossible to foresee that, in moving, with my husband, to
      a new location (in 1993) I would become such a target of prolonged
      interest and low-level violence among some young people, and a few
      older people, with largely unspoken or irrational grievances, such that
      my psychotic condition became abnormally elevated and, from a chemical
      point of view, anyway, set up for a catastrophic plunge. I fell to a
      realm quite new in my experience, into the mechanical, the absurd, into
      realms of inertia and darkness, fire and ash. The beauty I tried to
      record. All the rest was repulsion, defence.
      So how does this disordered subjectivity relate to racial politics? My
      contention is that, translated into philosophical terms, racism means
      love of one's own kin, whereas in political terms it means a specific
      ideology based on actual difference. This is where I differ from Wil,,
      who thinks that racial categories represent an arbitrary division, and
      from Jim, who believes them not in keeping with the spirit of the New
      Testament, and from Bill who sees opposition to miscegenation as mere
      prejudice. I hope I do not misrepresent the views of any of you
      gentlemen - a term which I assure you I employ without a trace of
      irony. Both as a British woman and a vulnerable kind of soul,
      gentlemanliness, from men of whatever class, is always appreciated
      though often somewhat complicating as well, these days.
      What, then, is the concept of race? it describes the historical fact
      of common gene pools, which produce statistically verifiable recurring
      physical characteristics, which in turn imply predispositions and
      aptitudes for particular kinds of governance and culture. Race sets
      the parameters within which certain possibilities may evolve. At
      least, the evidence of my reading and experience thus far have
      convinced me. A very bad experience of complicated class and ethnic
      conflict has left me a prey to monomania, yet I am not incapable of
      separating that melancholy fact of my medical history from the
      realities of a wider history. I wanted to find acceptance, a place, an
      identity, and the reason that I failed has much to do with the
      falsehoods spoken or written, about race. As though it were all about
      individuals. It cannot be. The individual may flourish best within a
      specific cohesive community. My own trust is in the nation state, the
      one I grew up in, because I did. Louise
    • eupraxis@aol.com
      Louise, As I have already implied, there is so much that I don t understand, about how normal people view the world, how they relate to the media universe,
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 9, 2008
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        Louise,

        "As I have already implied, there is so much that I don't understand, about
        how 'normal' people view the world, how they relate to the media universe, what
        variously the word 'God' might mean to them."

        Response: The question is rather to what extent one can remain aware of
        oneself when one is affected by delusions. Otherwise, I think it is generally
        believed that, except in cases of extreme dysfunction (which has never been evident
        in the present circumstances), bi-polar persons, et al., view the everyday
        world just like normal folks (i.e., neurotics). As to the subject of God, I
        think it to be a grand delusion, which begs the question as to why so many
        ostensibly "normal" people entertain the belief. My only conclusion on that matter
        has been that the human mind is often just too fragile in the face of its own
        fears.
        ---
        "In addition, for all I have been appalled and terrified, as the years
        passed, by what I found out about international finance and covert diplomacy, I was
        unable to understand the basics of economics or believe myself fit to join
        with others, in order to be motivated to put in the necessary work."

        Response: Sounds conspiratorial. Illuminati? International Jewish banking
        conspiracy? Liberal Internationalism and the UN World Order?
        ---
        "This was mainly because, ironically, I did not believe in Damascene
        conversions, and that my history as a liberal would always prevent me being fully
        accepted by other patriots, with their average, 'healthy' instincts, their
        strong-mindedness."

        Response: "Patriots" do tend to speak loudly.
        ---
        "My contention is that, translated into philosophical terms, racism means
        love of one's own kin, whereas in political terms it means a specific ideology
        based on actual difference. This is where I differ from Wil,, who thinks that
        racial categories represent an arbitrary division..."

        Response: Persons like Adler, the Nazi philosopher, tend to show that racism
        means the belief in the superiority of one's own race, in his case (and yours)
        the Aryan. This begs the question as to what race is and what superiority
        means. But even if one were to use the term in a non-hierarchical way, racism
        nevertheless always means the hatred or fear of another race. It would be hard to
        imagine the notion of race without the Other. If all geese were white, it
        would be unnecessary to say "white goose", eh?

        The differences that seem to mark the categories of separation between
        "races" are historically arbitrary, but not (necessarily) phenomenologically so
        (that is, you may be able to point to them). Whiteness becomes valorized at a
        certain point in history as a justification for the commercial subjectivization of
        slaves, for example, as does "Christian", "civilized", and the rest of the
        markers exploited ideologically. Thus, from a metalogical point of view, the
        differences between races are, as it were, the products of the differentiations
        themselves, rather than the reverse.
        ---
        "What, then, is the concept of race? it describes the historical fact of
        common gene pools, which produce statistically verifiable recurring physical
        characteristics, which in turn imply predispositions and aptitudes for particular
        kinds of governance and culture."

        Response: First, contemporary genetic analysis has thrown a nice big wrench
        into that idea. You, the nice English woman, may in fact have more 'black' (or
        Semitic, etc.) DNA than 'white' (sic). Wouldn't that be a laugh! Secondly,
        your supposition that physical characteristics imply predispositions was laughed
        out of science long ago. You should chuck that one in the bin, post haste.
        ---
        "I wanted to find acceptance, a place, an identity, and the reason that I
        failed..."

        Response: Of course, you did. Isn't that always the story?

        Wil



        **************
        Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
        fuel-efficient used cars.
        (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • louise
        Wil, I find your responses to be in the spirit of a kindly medicine man rather than a philosopher interested to hear any truths from a different perspective.
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 9, 2008
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          Wil,

          I find your responses to be in the spirit of a kindly medicine man
          rather than a philosopher interested to hear any truths from a
          different perspective. Typical Left-wing dismissiveness.

          Louise

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
          >
          > Louise,
          >
          > "As I have already implied, there is so much that I don't
          understand, about
          > how 'normal' people view the world, how they relate to the media
          universe, what
          > variously the word 'God' might mean to them."
          >
          > Response: The question is rather to what extent one can remain
          aware of
          > oneself when one is affected by delusions. Otherwise, I think it is
          generally
          > believed that, except in cases of extreme dysfunction (which has
          never been evident
          > in the present circumstances), bi-polar persons, et al., view the
          everyday
          > world just like normal folks (i.e., neurotics). As to the subject
          of God, I
          > think it to be a grand delusion, which begs the question as to why
          so many
          > ostensibly "normal" people entertain the belief. My only conclusion
          on that matter
          > has been that the human mind is often just too fragile in the face
          of its own
          > fears.
          > ---
          > "In addition, for all I have been appalled and terrified, as the
          years
          > passed, by what I found out about international finance and covert
          diplomacy, I was
          > unable to understand the basics of economics or believe myself fit
          to join
          > with others, in order to be motivated to put in the necessary work."
          >
          > Response: Sounds conspiratorial. Illuminati? International Jewish
          banking
          > conspiracy? Liberal Internationalism and the UN World Order?
          > ---
          > "This was mainly because, ironically, I did not believe in
          Damascene
          > conversions, and that my history as a liberal would always prevent
          me being fully
          > accepted by other patriots, with their average, 'healthy'
          instincts, their
          > strong-mindedness."
          >
          > Response: "Patriots" do tend to speak loudly.
          > ---
          > "My contention is that, translated into philosophical terms, racism
          means
          > love of one's own kin, whereas in political terms it means a
          specific ideology
          > based on actual difference. This is where I differ from Wil,, who
          thinks that
          > racial categories represent an arbitrary division..."
          >
          > Response: Persons like Adler, the Nazi philosopher, tend to show
          that racism
          > means the belief in the superiority of one's own race, in his case
          (and yours)
          > the Aryan. This begs the question as to what race is and what
          superiority
          > means. But even if one were to use the term in a non-hierarchical
          way, racism
          > nevertheless always means the hatred or fear of another race. It
          would be hard to
          > imagine the notion of race without the Other. If all geese were
          white, it
          > would be unnecessary to say "white goose", eh?
          >
          > The differences that seem to mark the categories of separation
          between
          > "races" are historically arbitrary, but not (necessarily)
          phenomenologically so
          > (that is, you may be able to point to them). Whiteness becomes
          valorized at a
          > certain point in history as a justification for the commercial
          subjectivization of
          > slaves, for example, as does "Christian", "civilized", and the rest
          of the
          > markers exploited ideologically. Thus, from a metalogical point of
          view, the
          > differences between races are, as it were, the products of the
          differentiations
          > themselves, rather than the reverse.
          > ---
          > "What, then, is the concept of race? it describes the historical
          fact of
          > common gene pools, which produce statistically verifiable recurring
          physical
          > characteristics, which in turn imply predispositions and aptitudes
          for particular
          > kinds of governance and culture."
          >
          > Response: First, contemporary genetic analysis has thrown a nice
          big wrench
          > into that idea. You, the nice English woman, may in fact have
          more 'black' (or
          > Semitic, etc.) DNA than 'white' (sic). Wouldn't that be a laugh!
          Secondly,
          > your supposition that physical characteristics imply
          predispositions was laughed
          > out of science long ago. You should chuck that one in the bin, post
          haste.
          > ---
          > "I wanted to find acceptance, a place, an identity, and the reason
          that I
          > failed..."
          >
          > Response: Of course, you did. Isn't that always the story?
          >
          > Wil
          >
          >
          >
          > **************
          > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
          > fuel-efficient used cars.
          > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • eupraxis@aol.com
          Maybe, but are you sure what you see as typically leftist may not apt as well? WS ... From: louise To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 9, 2008
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            Maybe, but are you sure what you see as typically leftist may not apt
            as well?

            WS


            -----Original Message-----
            From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:19 am
            Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear

























            Wil,



            I find your responses to be in the spirit of a kindly medicine man

            rather than a philosopher interested to hear any truths from a

            different perspective. Typical Left-wing dismissiveness.



            Louise



            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

            >

            > Louise,

            >

            > "As I have already implied, there is so much that I don't

            understand, about

            > how 'normal' people view the world, how they relate to the media

            universe, what

            > variously the word 'God' might mean to them."

            >

            > Response: The question is rather to what extent one can remain

            aware of

            > oneself when one is affected by delusions. Otherwise, I think it is

            generally

            > believed that, except in cases of extreme dysfunction (which has

            never been evident

            > in the present circumstances), bi-polar persons, et al., view the

            everyday

            > world just like normal folks (i.e., neurotics). As to the subject

            of God, I

            > think it to be a grand delusion, which begs the question as to why

            so many

            > ostensibly "normal" people entertain the belief. My only conclusion

            on that matter

            > has been that the human mind is often just too fragile in the face

            of its own

            > fears.

            > ---

            > "In addition, for all I have been appalled and terrified, as the

            years

            > passed, by what I found out about international finance and covert

            diplomacy, I was

            > unable to understand the basics of economics or believe myself fit

            to join

            > with others, in order to be motivated to put in the necessary work."

            >

            > Response: Sounds conspiratorial. Illuminati? International Jewish

            banking

            > conspiracy? Liberal Internationalism and the UN World Order?

            > ---

            > "This was mainly because, ironically, I did not believe in

            Damascene

            > conversions, and that my history as a liberal would always prevent

            me being fully

            > accepted by other patriots, with their average, 'healthy'

            instincts, their

            > strong-mindedness."

            >

            > Response: "Patriots" do tend to speak loudly.

            > ---

            > "My contention is that, translated into philosophical terms, racism

            means

            > love of one's own kin, whereas in political terms it means a

            specific ideology

            > based on actual difference. This is where I differ from Wil,, who

            thinks that

            > racial categories represent an arbitrary division..."

            >

            > Response: Persons like Adler, the Nazi philosopher, tend to show

            that racism

            > means the belief in the superiority of one's own race, in his case

            (and yours)

            > the Aryan. This begs the question as to what race is and what

            superiority

            > means. But even if one were to use the term in a non-hierarchical

            way, racism

            > nevertheless always means the hatred or fear of another race. It

            would be hard to

            > imagine the notion of race without the Other. If all geese were

            white, it

            > would be unnecessary to say "white goose", eh?

            >

            > The differences that seem to mark the categories of separation

            between

            > "races" are historically arbitrary, but not (necessarily)

            phenomenologically so

            > (that is, you may be able to point to them). Whiteness becomes

            valorized at a

            > certain point in history as a justification for the commercial

            subjectivization of

            > slaves, for example, as does "Christian", "civilized", and the rest

            of the

            > markers exploited ideologically. Thus, from a metalogical point of

            view, the

            > differences between races are, as it were, the products of the

            differentiations

            > themselves, rather than the reverse.

            > ---

            > "What, then, is the concept of race? it describes the historical

            fact of

            > common gene pools, which produce statistically verifiable recurring

            physical

            > characteristics, which in turn imply predispositions and aptitudes

            for particular

            > kinds of governance and culture."

            >

            > Response: First, contemporary genetic analysis has thrown a nice

            big wrench

            > into that idea. You, the nice English woman, may in fact have

            more 'black' (or

            > Semitic, etc.) DNA than 'white' (sic). Wouldn't that be a laugh!

            Secondly,

            > your supposition that physical characteristics imply

            predispositions was laughed

            > out of science long ago. You should chuck that one in the bin, post

            haste.

            > ---

            > "I wanted to find acceptance, a place, an identity, and the reason

            that I

            > failed..."

            >

            > Response: Of course, you did. Isn't that always the story?

            >

            > Wil

            >

            >

            >

            > **************

            > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for

            > fuel-efficient used cars.

            > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

            >

            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >
          • louise
            Could you rephrase that for me, please? The question doesn t seem terribly clear. LK ... apt
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 9, 2008
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              Could you rephrase that for me, please? The question doesn't seem
              terribly clear.

              LK

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
              >
              > Maybe, but are you sure what you see as typically leftist may not
              apt
              > as well?
              >
              > WS
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:19 am
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              >
              > Wil,
              >
              >
              >
              > I find your responses to be in the spirit of a kindly medicine man
              >
              > rather than a philosopher interested to hear any truths from a
              >
              > different perspective. Typical Left-wing dismissiveness.
              >
              >
              >
              > Louise
            • eupraxis@aol.com
              Your retorts are always so similar. Never mind. Wil ... From: louise To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:35 am
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 9, 2008
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                Your retorts are always so similar. Never mind.

                Wil


                -----Original Message-----
                From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:35 am
                Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear

























                Could you rephrase that for me, please? The question doesn't seem

                terribly clear.



                LK



                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

                >

                > Maybe, but are you sure what you see as typically leftist may not

                apt

                > as well?

                >

                > WS

                >

                >

                > -----Original Message-----

                > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:19 am

                > Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

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                >

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                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > Wil,

                >

                >

                >

                > I find your responses to be in the spirit of a kindly medicine man

                >

                > rather than a philosopher interested to hear any truths from a

                >

                > different perspective. Typical Left-wing dismissiveness.

                >

                >

                >

                > Louise
              • louise
                The fact that you interpret a question as though it were a retort shows me that you do not understand what I was asking, which was very simple. My own
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 9, 2008
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                  The fact that you interpret a question as though it were a 'retort'
                  shows me that you do not understand what I was asking, which was very
                  simple. My own phrasing was possibly misleading. You thought,
                  maybe, that I was being sarcastic. There really are considerable
                  differences between American and British culture, more so than ever,
                  I would guess. Power of technology and language. Still, if there is
                  not the right spirit in which to converse, it is better not to
                  converse. Usually. If certain confusions are to be made clear, by
                  facts, explanations, and argument, I expect it to take a long time.

                  Louise

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Your retorts are always so similar. Never mind.
                  >
                  > Wil
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:35 am
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  > Could you rephrase that for me, please? The question doesn't seem
                  >
                  > terribly clear.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > LK
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Maybe, but are you sure what you see as typically leftist may not
                  >
                  > apt
                  >
                  > > as well?
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > WS
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  >
                  > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                  >
                  > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:19 am
                  >
                  > > Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear
                  >
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                  > > Wil,
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > I find your responses to be in the spirit of a kindly medicine man
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > rather than a philosopher interested to hear any truths from a
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > different perspective. Typical Left-wing dismissiveness.
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Louise
                  >
                • eupraxis@aol.com
                  L, What truths do you think you are offering from a different perspective ? I may have missed them. The points that I made were not a la some medicine man.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 9, 2008
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                    L,

                    What truths do you think you are offering "from a different
                    perspective"? I may have missed them. The points that I made were not a
                    la some medicine man. They were, in fact, meant philosophically and
                    scientifically. Don't let the sarcasm lead you astray.

                    Wil

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:26 pm
                    Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear

























                    The fact that you interpret a question as though it were a 'retort'

                    shows me that you do not understand what I was asking, which was very

                    simple. My own phrasing was possibly misleading. You thought,

                    maybe, that I was being sarcastic. There really are considerable

                    differences between American and British culture, more so than ever,

                    I would guess. Power of technology and language. Still, if there is

                    not the right spirit in which to converse, it is better not to

                    converse. Usually. If certain confusions are to be made clear, by

                    facts, explanations, and argument, I expect it to take a long time.



                    Louise



                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

                    >

                    > Your retorts are always so similar. Never mind.

                    >

                    > Wil

                    >

                    >

                    > -----Original Message-----

                    > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>

                    > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                    > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:35 am

                    > Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

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                    >

                    > Could you rephrase that for me, please? The question doesn't seem

                    >

                    > terribly clear.

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > LK

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > Maybe, but are you sure what you see as typically leftist may not

                    >

                    > apt

                    >

                    > > as well?

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > WS

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > -----Original Message-----

                    >

                    > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>

                    >

                    > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                    >

                    > > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:19 am

                    >

                    > > Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear

                    >

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                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > Wil,

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > I find your responses to be in the spirit of a kindly medicine man

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > rather than a philosopher interested to hear any truths from a

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > different perspective. Typical Left-wing dismissiveness.

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > >

                    >

                    > > Louise

                    >
                  • louise
                    Sarcasm doesn t lead me astray, it only hurts my feelings, though not from you, as I only find irony in your messages. Aren t people always confusing
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 9, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Sarcasm doesn't lead me astray, it only hurts my feelings, though not
                      from you, as I only find irony in your messages. Aren't people
                      always confusing themselves with other people? At any rate, I am
                      still sufficiently confused, and in shock, from events in recent
                      weeks, as not to be in a hurry to clarify what thus far my judgment
                      is not fit to assess. I need time to think.

                      Louise

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                      >
                      > L,
                      >
                      > What truths do you think you are offering "from a different
                      > perspective"? I may have missed them. The points that I made were
                      not a
                      > la some medicine man. They were, in fact, meant philosophically and
                      > scientifically. Don't let the sarcasm lead you astray.
                      >
                      > Wil
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: louise <hecubatoher@...>
                      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:26 pm
                      > Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The fact that you interpret a question as though it were a 'retort'
                      >
                      > shows me that you do not understand what I was asking, which was
                      very
                      >
                      > simple. My own phrasing was possibly misleading. You thought,
                      >
                      > maybe, that I was being sarcastic. There really are considerable
                      >
                      > differences between American and British culture, more so than ever,
                      >
                      > I would guess. Power of technology and language. Still, if there
                      is
                      >
                      > not the right spirit in which to converse, it is better not to
                      >
                      > converse. Usually. If certain confusions are to be made clear, by
                      >
                      > facts, explanations, and argument, I expect it to take a long time.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Louise
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Your retorts are always so similar. Never mind.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Wil
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      >
                      > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                      >
                      > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:35 am
                      >
                      > > Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Could you rephrase that for me, please? The question doesn't seem
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > terribly clear.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > LK
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Maybe, but are you sure what you see as typically leftist may
                      not
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > apt
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > as well?
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > WS
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > From: louise <hecubatoher@>
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Sent: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:19 am
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: held hostage by fear
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Wil,
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > I find your responses to be in the spirit of a kindly medicine
                      man
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > rather than a philosopher interested to hear any truths from a
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > different perspective. Typical Left-wing dismissiveness.
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                      > > > Louise
                      >
                      > >
                      >
                    • C. S. Wyatt
                      At least we are in an area I study out of necessity to appreciate forms of atypical neurology. ... As far as we can tell, if you are aware of your differences,
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 9, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        At least we are in an area I study out of necessity to appreciate forms of atypical
                        neurology.

                        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                        > Response: The question is rather to what extent one can remain aware of
                        > oneself when one is affected by delusions. Otherwise, I think it is generally
                        > believed that, except in cases of extreme dysfunction (which has never been evident
                        > in the present circumstances), bi-polar persons, et al., view the everyday
                        > world just like normal folks (i.e., neurotics).

                        As far as we can tell, if you are aware of your differences, you are still "in control" enough
                        to seek treatment and to even manage perceptions that are in error. The film (I know, not
                        true to the biography) "A Beautiful Mind" ends with this: aware of his neurologically-based hallucinations, a mathematician learns to question and test his perceptions. As it turns
                        out, I have met individuals able to do exactly that: recognize when they aren't "normal"
                        and adjust accordingly.

                        Serious depression and early onset schizophrenia (before 20-25) are exceptions to this,
                        unfortunately, and I have not read enough literature on those specific conditions to know
                        why.

                        The people with high-functioning autism, Asperger's syndrome, and brain injuries I have
                        met know when they are not "normal" and can explain exactly what isn't normal about
                        their perceptions. This is why, at least in theory, behavioral therapies and occupational
                        therapies can help these people present as "normal" in public. They don't feel better, but
                        they manage the expression of symptoms with logic or even brute force of will.

                        > ostensibly "normal" people entertain the belief. My only conclusion on that matter
                        > has been that the human mind is often just too fragile in the face of its own
                        > fears.

                        "The God Spot" research at the University of Montreal is the most complete on "religious
                        experience" and the human mind. It does seem to be inherent in most people, which
                        explains why so many "atheists" are New Age obscurists -- faith is faith, in my book. This
                        is why my academic colleagues using Feng Shui or I-Ching make me laugh (silently).

                        To rise above superstition actually seems to take effort. The left brain (see Sci Am MIND,
                        July 2008) is wired to create "explanations" from observations. This is why we see patterns
                        even when there are none. People with damage to the left brain are actually more logical
                        (contrary to popular myth) because the left keeps trying to solve puzzles with theories.
                        The right brain uses raw data, nothing more. It lacks the ability to "anticipate" new
                        situations, but the right reads the immediate situation more accurately.

                        Example: If I tell you that a light has a probability of 75% that it will turn green, the logical
                        bet is to always bet on green. However, "normal" people try to find patterns or mistakenly
                        assume if the first 75 blinks are green, they should then bet on red. People with damaged
                        left brains, but intact right, bet on green every time.

                        Because we evolved to explain and seek patterns, humans began to "explain" the unknown
                        with Gods. Myths, legends, scriptures, whatever... we try to explain what we do not
                        understand. This turns out to be a function of the brain. People with split brains (used to
                        deal with dangerous epilepsy) shown an even only via the right optic nerve, state only what
                        they saw. When the results are revealed to the left nerve, they develop creative stories,
                        entirely inaccurate, to explain the event.

                        Evolution gave us the ability to conjecture, theorize, and explain... but at a price.

                        So far, little research points to the ability for instant logic. Usually, we rationalize. We want
                        patterns and fancy explanations for events. This works to the benefit of those in power, of
                        course, because the public is left in awe of whatever events happen. People never trust the
                        basic event to be so basic.

                        Churches certainly depend on people wanting big stories to explain things. Anti-semites
                        depended on conspiracy theories. I think most political parties operate on the notion of
                        "they" are out to get "you" somehow. (Who they are changes, but it always an attack on
                        your way of life, whatever that means.)

                        Philosophers aren't above conspiracy nonsense. Nor are scientists. Humans are fallible. So,
                        religion explains the complex for people you'd imagine to be beyond the need for faith.

                        - CSW
                      • tyga
                        ... tyga: What do you mean by normal ? Forgive my ignorance but I am very new here and am very fresh when it comes to existentialist philosophy. Apart from
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 10, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          C. S. Wyatt wrote:
                          > At least we are in an area I study out of necessity to appreciate forms of atypical
                          > neurology.
                          >
                          > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                          >
                          >> Response: The question is rather to what extent one can remain aware of
                          >> oneself when one is affected by delusions. Otherwise, I think it is generally
                          >> believed that, except in cases of extreme dysfunction (which has never been evident
                          >> in the present circumstances), bi-polar persons, et al., view the everyday
                          >> world just like normal folks (i.e., neurotics).
                          >>
                          >
                          > As far as we can tell, if you are aware of your differences, you are still "in control" enough
                          > to seek treatment and to even manage perceptions that are in error. The film (I know, not
                          > true to the biography) "A Beautiful Mind" ends with this: aware of his neurologically-based hallucinations, a mathematician learns to question and test his perceptions. As it turns
                          > out, I have met individuals able to do exactly that: recognize when they aren't "normal"
                          > and adjust accordingly.
                          >
                          > Serious depression and early onset schizophrenia (before 20-25) are exceptions to this,
                          > unfortunately, and I have not read enough literature on those specific conditions to know
                          > why.
                          >
                          > The people with high-functioning autism, Asperger's syndrome, and brain injuries I have
                          > met know when they are not "normal" and can explain exactly what isn't normal about
                          > their perceptions. This is why, at least in theory, behavioral therapies and occupational
                          > therapies can help these people present as "normal" in public. They don't feel better, but
                          > they manage the expression of symptoms with logic or even brute force of will.
                          >

                          tyga: What do you mean by 'normal'? Forgive my ignorance but I am very
                          new here and am very fresh when it comes to existentialist philosophy.
                          Apart from experiencing existential angst first hand, I really don't
                          know that much at all.

                          I suffered from depression, anxiety/panic disorder and particularly
                          existential anxiety, an experience I wish never to repeat. I can attest
                          from my own experience, I was well aware that I was not 'normal'.

                          >
                          >> ostensibly "normal" people entertain the belief. My only conclusion on that matter
                          >> has been that the human mind is often just too fragile in the face of its own
                          >> fears.
                          >>
                          >
                          > "The God Spot" research at the University of Montreal is the most complete on "religious
                          > experience" and the human mind. It does seem to be inherent in most people, which
                          > explains why so many "atheists" are New Age obscurists -- faith is faith, in my book. This
                          > is why my academic colleagues using Feng Shui or I-Ching make me laugh (silently).
                          >

                          tyga: What is an new age obscurist?

                          > To rise above superstition actually seems to take effort. The left brain (see Sci Am MIND,
                          > July 2008) is wired to create "explanations" from observations. This is why we see patterns
                          > even when there are none. People with damage to the left brain are actually more logical
                          > (contrary to popular myth) because the left keeps trying to solve puzzles with theories.
                          > The right brain uses raw data, nothing more. It lacks the ability to "anticipate" new
                          > situations, but the right reads the immediate situation more accurately.
                          >
                          > Example: If I tell you that a light has a probability of 75% that it will turn green, the logical
                          > bet is to always bet on green. However, "normal" people try to find patterns or mistakenly
                          > assume if the first 75 blinks are green, they should then bet on red. People with damaged
                          > left brains, but intact right, bet on green every time.
                          >
                          > Because we evolved to explain and seek patterns, humans began to "explain" the unknown
                          > with Gods. Myths, legends, scriptures, whatever... we try to explain what we do not
                          > understand. This turns out to be a function of the brain. People with split brains (used to
                          > deal with dangerous epilepsy) shown an even only via the right optic nerve, state only what
                          > they saw. When the results are revealed to the left nerve, they develop creative stories,
                          > entirely inaccurate, to explain the event.
                          >
                          > Evolution gave us the ability to conjecture, theorize, and explain... but at a price.
                          >
                          > So far, little research points to the ability for instant logic. Usually, we rationalize. We want
                          > patterns and fancy explanations for events. This works to the benefit of those in power, of
                          > course, because the public is left in awe of whatever events happen. People never trust the
                          > basic event to be so basic.
                          >
                          > Churches certainly depend on people wanting big stories to explain things. Anti-semites
                          > depended on conspiracy theories. I think most political parties operate on the notion of
                          > "they" are out to get "you" somehow. (Who they are changes, but it always an attack on
                          > your way of life, whatever that means.)
                          >
                          > Philosophers aren't above conspiracy nonsense. Nor are scientists. Humans are fallible. So,
                          > religion explains the complex for people you'd imagine to be beyond the need for faith.
                          >
                          > - CSW
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          tyga: How does this fit into the concept of nothingness? I was under the
                          impression that existentialism dealt with the no-thing, you appear to be
                          saying a lot of some-thing? Again, I have no other understanding of
                          existentialism except for my own experience, so it is possible that I do
                          not understand.

                          regards,

                          tyga
                        • eupraxis@aol.com
                          ... CS, Yes, Foucault s early work on psychiatry also echos some of this. WS ************** Get the scoop on last night s hottest shows and the live music
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 10, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 7/9/08 10:52:47 PM, existlist1@... writes:
                            > As far as we can tell, if you are aware of your differences, you are still
                            > "in control" enough
                            > to seek treatment and to even manage perceptions that are in error.
                            >
                            CS,

                            Yes, Foucault's early work on psychiatry also echos some of this.

                            WS


                            **************
                            Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live
                            music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!

                            (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • bhvwd
                            ... forms of atypical ... aware of ... is generally ... never been evident ... everyday ... are still in control enough ... The film (I know, not ... his
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 10, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "C. S. Wyatt" <existlist1@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > At least we are in an area I study out of necessity to appreciate
                              forms of atypical
                              > neurology.
                              >
                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                              > > Response: The question is rather to what extent one can remain
                              aware of
                              > > oneself when one is affected by delusions. Otherwise, I think it
                              is generally
                              > > believed that, except in cases of extreme dysfunction (which has
                              never been evident
                              > > in the present circumstances), bi-polar persons, et al., view the
                              everyday
                              > > world just like normal folks (i.e., neurotics).
                              >
                              > As far as we can tell, if you are aware of your differences, you
                              are still "in control" enough
                              > to seek treatment and to even manage perceptions that are in error.
                              The film (I know, not
                              > true to the biography) "A Beautiful Mind" ends with this: aware of
                              his neurologically-based hallucinations, a mathematician learns to
                              question and test his perceptions. As it turns
                              > out, I have met individuals able to do exactly that: recognize when
                              they aren't "normal"
                              > and adjust accordingly.
                              >
                              > Serious depression and early onset schizophrenia (before 20-25) are
                              exceptions to this,
                              > unfortunately, and I have not read enough literature on those
                              specific conditions to know
                              > why.
                              >
                              > The people with high-functioning autism, Asperger's syndrome, and
                              brain injuries I have
                              > met know when they are not "normal" and can explain exactly what
                              isn't normal about
                              > their perceptions. This is why, at least in theory, behavioral
                              therapies and occupational
                              > therapies can help these people present as "normal" in public. They
                              don't feel better, but
                              > they manage the expression of symptoms with logic or even brute
                              force of will.
                              >
                              > > ostensibly "normal" people entertain the belief. My only
                              conclusion on that matter
                              > > has been that the human mind is often just too fragile in the
                              face of its own
                              > > fears.
                              >
                              > "The God Spot" research at the University of Montreal is the most
                              complete on "religious
                              > experience" and the human mind. It does seem to be inherent in most
                              people, which
                              > explains why so many "atheists" are New Age obscurists -- faith is
                              faith, in my book. This
                              > is why my academic colleagues using Feng Shui or I-Ching make me
                              laugh (silently).
                              >
                              > To rise above superstition actually seems to take effort. The left
                              brain (see Sci Am MIND,
                              > July 2008) is wired to create "explanations" from observations.
                              This is why we see patterns
                              > even when there are none. People with damage to the left brain are
                              actually more logical
                              > (contrary to popular myth) because the left keeps trying to solve
                              puzzles with theories.
                              > The right brain uses raw data, nothing more. It lacks the ability
                              to "anticipate" new
                              > situations, but the right reads the immediate situation more
                              accurately.
                              >
                              > Example: If I tell you that a light has a probability of 75% that
                              it will turn green, the logical
                              > bet is to always bet on green. However, "normal" people try to find
                              patterns or mistakenly
                              > assume if the first 75 blinks are green, they should then bet on
                              red. People with damaged
                              > left brains, but intact right, bet on green every time.
                              >
                              > Because we evolved to explain and seek patterns, humans began
                              to "explain" the unknown
                              > with Gods. Myths, legends, scriptures, whatever... we try to
                              explain what we do not
                              > understand. This turns out to be a function of the brain. People
                              with split brains (used to
                              > deal with dangerous epilepsy) shown an even only via the right
                              optic nerve, state only what
                              > they saw. When the results are revealed to the left nerve, they
                              develop creative stories,
                              > entirely inaccurate, to explain the event.
                              >
                              > Evolution gave us the ability to conjecture, theorize, and
                              explain... but at a price.
                              >
                              > So far, little research points to the ability for instant logic.
                              Usually, we rationalize. We want
                              > patterns and fancy explanations for events. This works to the
                              benefit of those in power, of
                              > course, because the public is left in awe of whatever events
                              happen. People never trust the
                              > basic event to be so basic.
                              >
                              > Churches certainly depend on people wanting big stories to explain
                              things. Anti-semites
                              > depended on conspiracy theories. I think most political parties
                              operate on the notion of
                              > "they" are out to get "you" somehow. (Who they are changes, but it
                              always an attack on
                              > your way of life, whatever that means.)
                              >
                              > Philosophers aren't above conspiracy nonsense. Nor are scientists.
                              Humans are fallible. So,
                              > religion explains the complex for people you'd imagine to be beyond
                              the need for faith.
                              >
                              > - CSW
                              >CSW, The NBC news just broadcast a very convoluted piece on autism.
                              It was a cloaked political propaganda message. It linked first cousen
                              marriage as practiced in muslim countries with autism. Are we to
                              resist an autistic culture? It is a handy time to sell the mutant
                              idea. It is easy to kill mutants and we need that oil. Talk about
                              discontent, wow, Fanny and Ginney May are close to recievership. It
                              is no time to be bum of the month, scapegoats are wanted, dead or
                              alive. The spins are full blown hurricanes of deception. Phil
                              Graham, bank executive, sets himself up for Hoover follower award .
                              Oh , I forgot your from Gopher land not gods country. Jesse for god.
                              Bill
                            • C. S. Wyatt
                              ... No, they study autism and other genetic conditions in the Middle East and within tribal cultures because there is limited intermarriage. It would be the
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jul 13, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:
                                > >CSW, The NBC news just broadcast a very convoluted piece on autism.
                                > It was a cloaked political propaganda message. It linked first cousen
                                > marriage as practiced in muslim countries with autism. Are we to
                                > resist an autistic culture? It is a handy time to sell the mutant
                                > idea. It is easy to kill mutants and we need that oil.

                                No, they study autism and other genetic conditions in the Middle East and within tribal
                                cultures because there is limited intermarriage. It would be the same if we had people who
                                lived on islands, never leaving. (There are studies in Iceland for much the same reason,
                                actually.)

                                Another reason to study autism in the Middle East is that they have fewer experts (I'm
                                being polite) willing to give the diagnosis. Clinicians and researchers diagnose autism
                                differently, causing a fair amount of tension. The parents are far less likely to challenge
                                the scientist's diagnosis. (Vaccination rates are low, so you get to avoid an especially nasty
                                debate with parents.)

                                I am now back from the ASA conference which was in Florida this week. Studying autism
                                pits parents against patients, patients against each other, researchers with various biases
                                competing.... welcome to the tribulations of modern science.

                                Something I appreciate about existentialism -- it makes no claim that philosophy can or
                                should be scientific. I was reading essays on science over-reaching its promise all
                                weekend. Heidegger, for all I dislike about the man, was very right to write that science is
                                not meaning, and even incorrect perception is still perception that shapes the person.

                                - CS
                              • bhvwd
                                ... autism. ... cousen ... East and within tribal ... same if we had people who ... much the same reason, ... fewer experts (I m ... researchers diagnose
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jul 14, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "C. S. Wyatt" <existlist1@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "bhvwd" <v.valleywestdental@>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > >CSW, The NBC news just broadcast a very convoluted piece on
                                  autism.
                                  > > It was a cloaked political propaganda message. It linked first
                                  cousen
                                  > > marriage as practiced in muslim countries with autism. Are we to
                                  > > resist an autistic culture? It is a handy time to sell the mutant
                                  > > idea. It is easy to kill mutants and we need that oil.
                                  >
                                  > No, they study autism and other genetic conditions in the Middle
                                  East and within tribal
                                  > cultures because there is limited intermarriage. It would be the
                                  same if we had people who
                                  > lived on islands, never leaving. (There are studies in Iceland for
                                  much the same reason,
                                  > actually.)
                                  >
                                  > Another reason to study autism in the Middle East is that they have
                                  fewer experts (I'm
                                  > being polite) willing to give the diagnosis. Clinicians and
                                  researchers diagnose autism
                                  > differently, causing a fair amount of tension. The parents are far
                                  less likely to challenge
                                  > the scientist's diagnosis. (Vaccination rates are low, so you get
                                  to avoid an especially nasty
                                  > debate with parents.)
                                  >
                                  > I am now back from the ASA conference which was in Florida this
                                  week. Studying autism
                                  > pits parents against patients, patients against each other,
                                  researchers with various biases
                                  > competing.... welcome to the tribulations of modern science.
                                  >
                                  > Something I appreciate about existentialism -- it makes no claim
                                  that philosophy can or
                                  > should be scientific. I was reading essays on science over-reaching
                                  its promise all
                                  > weekend. Heidegger, for all I dislike about the man, was very right
                                  to write that science is
                                  > not meaning, and even incorrect perception is still perception that
                                  shapes the person.
                                  >
                                  > - CS
                                  >CS, It seems that with no agreement on the definition of autism and
                                  nothing but conflict in consideration of the term, it should be
                                  dropped and replaced when better science arrives. As it is, autism
                                  and those who suffer from it are subject to discrimination and
                                  hatred. The News item I mentioned was flirting with the idea that
                                  mid eastern cultures are autistic cultures . The vilification
                                  process in most cases has little to do with any wrong attributed to
                                  the targeted group. It is justification for invasion and domination.
                                  It is no secret that the neocon bullies would like to crush Iran .
                                  They think this will give us the oil and power we want to continue
                                  the petroleum world. That idea is deranged for many reasons some of
                                  which are ecological, some logistic and yes, some philosophical.
                                  Loosely defined syndromes such as autism are prime targets for hate
                                  based greed. If middle eastern cultures are filled with substandard
                                  peoples, bring on the oil and the holocaust, they won`t use the oil
                                  properly anyway.
                                  Your powerful statements regarding the genetic parity of differing
                                  peoples needs to be spoken, often .Covetousness relies on bigotry ,
                                  racism and greed and should be pointed out as soon as it is
                                  discovered, before it builds to the level of war. We have two wars
                                  too many and I will scream should I detect even more bellicosity. At
                                  4.00/gal we are ripe for scapegoating and hate mongering. We must
                                  not bite. Bill
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