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Re: [existlist] Re: Ferguson & Empires

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  • Aija Veldre Beldavs
    ... being stuck in one spacetime version of a term does create problems... are you also against its synonyms people and people s movements? communities? how
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 2, 2008
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      > aija,
      >
      > Surely you're not surprised I consider empire and/or culture equally
      > harmful and beneficial to the individual. The term "folk" connotes
      > both security and horror for me. I realize there is an
      > educational/vocational imperative to generalize about history and
      > culture, but for the individual these are problematic when one needs
      > to reject given values and traditions. I don't promote individualism
      > as dogma but as personal necessity. We should validate the benign
      > Other in our midst, regardless. We join at our own peril, and isn't
      > this what some existentialists have so poignantly demonstrated with
      > their own reckless endorsements?
      >
      > Mary

      being stuck in one spacetime version of a term does create problems...
      are you also against its synonyms people and people's movements?
      communities? how about consumers and consumer movements, then?

      i suppose there are those who think folklorists are some kind of
      sinister bunch, studying nefarious knowledge or that which is hopelessly
      outdated, and they would like indigenous peoples throughout the world
      should just shut up and dissolve. never mind that folklore studies
      living, dynamic, evolving human systems, just like related fields like
      anthropology and sociology, except it concentrates on the noncommercial
      artistic production also of ordinary people, while folklife takes
      special interest in non-dominant material culture.

      you have your take, here's mine based on actually working in the field,
      not just folkloristics but also with disadvantaged people in communities:

      humans have been living in hearths or households (which of course are
      NOT composed of just related people if the society is not radically
      endogamous and exclusive (the early dispersed societies in the Baltic
      were not, different anthropological types intermarrying) and small face
      to face groups since before being humans.

      social engineers have to work very hard to destroy mutually supportive
      relationships as such development has been a natural part of humans
      evolving. where this succeeds, people are less likely set free as
      become a) manipulable within mass society &/or b) dysfunctional.

      i believe people become free as they develop ever deeper and wider
      understanding of what the nature is of connectedness.

      there are all kinds of societies, including more open and closed. there
      are membership rituals to include those that are not members, marriage,
      adoption, blood brotherhood, and even strange things such as bee swarm
      kinship in the Baltic (an archaic kinship type based on sharing rights
      to forest honey as bee swarms migrate into unknown territory).

      tradition - (good, bad, both, neither) is a flexible mechanism of
      adaptation, not fixed, evaluated in terms of what it does. it takes at
      least two people, and usually more, to have tradition in that tradition
      involves communicating experience with someone other than oneself.

      aija
    • mary.jo11
      aija, I have the luxury of choosing to be contrary and non-traditional. Some Others do not. When you use a popular phrase such as the nature of connectedness
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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        aija,

        I have the luxury of choosing to be contrary and non-traditional. Some
        Others do not. When you use a popular phrase such as the "nature of
        connectedness" I cringe, because my experience is that only those who
        experience it know what it is. I've bleed on both sides of that sword.

        Mary
      • Aija Veldre Beldavs
        ... sorry your experience of connectedness has been negative. mine has been more positive than negative, though i ve learned from both, and it has been a means
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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          > I have the luxury of choosing to be contrary and non-traditional. Some
          > Others do not. When you use a popular phrase such as the "nature of
          > connectedness" I cringe, because my experience is that only those who
          > experience it know what it is. I've bleed on both sides of that sword.
          > Mary

          sorry your experience of connectedness has been negative.
          mine has been more positive than negative, though i've learned from
          both, and it has been a means for me to develop as an individual.
          alienation, connectedness, freedom, and enslavement are universally
          experienced in different degrees both individually and collectively.

          aija
        • mary.jo11
          Raising children has been the significant experience of my life, and I not so humbly consider it a contribution to society. I take issue with solidarity,
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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            Raising children has been the significant experience of my life, and I
            not so humbly consider it a contribution to society.

            I take issue with "solidarity," that existential ax, because of its
            tendency to totalitarian impulses, in both private and public spheres.
            The compromise and cost are usually not fully assessed until after the
            damage is done. Maybe I'm just old and tired. Things just seemed more
            romantic, idealistic, and possible when I was much younger. My hope
            for the future is tempered not rusted.

            This evening there will be fireworks and celebrations. We remember the
            individual privateers, slaves, and free men and women who forged this
            great melting pot into which we all eventually disappear, overly taxed
            and underrepresented, still luckier than many. Nation seems a strange
            and necessary construct.

            Existentialism isn't a static concept or philosophy seeking objective
            truths. Perhaps it's merely a vigilant advocacy for the silent alien
            other who stands at the door but cannot or refuses to come in. It
            recognizes a frustrating, unsolvable paradox. Even the most "normal"
            or "well adjusted" among us might feel that kind of incommunicable
            isolation.

            E pluribus unum now seems a clever marketing scam, no pun intended.

            Mary


            >sorry your experience of connectedness has been negative.
            >mine has been more positive than negative, though i've learned from
            >both, and it has been a means for me to develop as an individual.
            >alienation, connectedness, freedom, and enslavement are universally
            >experienced in different degrees both individually and collectively.

            aija
          • Aija Veldre Beldavs
            ... no problem, precedents exist if one is willing to look beyond the usual norm.:) many pre-agricultural & herding peoples related to a great variety of
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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              > Perhaps it's merely a vigilant advocacy for the silent alien
              > other who stands at the door but cannot or refuses to come in.
              > Mary

              no problem, precedents exist if one is willing to look beyond the usual
              norm.:)

              many pre-agricultural & herding peoples related to a great variety of
              animals, not just herd animals, and some societies remembered this even
              after they became domesticated. Bear Woman doesn't get the kind of
              support from her mate as the wolf or the penguin (of the latter some are
              homosexual). Inescapably Nature has variety and she is the first living
              book that people study as to what niches living forms occupy.

              "Kungi raksta graamataa,
              Saule kljava lapinjaa.
              Lords/ masters write in a book,
              Sun, she writes in a maple leaf."
              (recorded in different variants, latv. folk/ daina-song)

              there are archaic societies that recognized order and disorder/ chaos
              beyond duality to be part of the same system. thus, awe and respect,
              rather than vilification, fear, or hatred of the strange going back to a
              cognitive revolution taking place throughout the world as evidenced by
              cave and rock art. DMT (N,N-dimethyltryptamine) spiritual experiences
              going back to those days gives the experience of making the strange
              familiar and the familiar strange, as well as sensing connectedness of
              all within Nature/ the Cosmos.

              until many Great Civilizations (starting with Zoroastrianism) classified
              what was ambiguous as Evil, shamans, wise women/witches, tricksters,
              third sexes, & so on were "our strangers" (all of them deviating from
              the norm by choice or mis/fortune) esp. among such peoples as the
              Uralic. ambiguous (potentially dangerous or helpful according to
              circumstances), rather than Good or Bad natural forces or deities have
              been more characteristic of archaic religions, and this is still the
              case among a number of indigenous peoples who of course have modified
              their traditions to fit current circumstances.

              from the ecological point of view non-dominant alternative world
              insights are worth studying and respecting as part of human experience,
              especially since normative truths of any one society are widely taken to
              be self-evident, including the dominant ones today.

              animals and plants, later considered disgusting and associated with
              witches or the Devil, such as toads, snakes, or mushrooms were in
              earlier times respected as part of Nature. mystical experience, derived
              from entheogenics &/or other means known in shamanism with reasonable
              probability gave an early sense of all things being connected.

              one of the first to suggest the role of entheogenics in the
              break-through to a pre-agricultural human spirituality, Gordon Wasson
              (Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality, 1967) observed that Europe seemed
              to be divided into mycophobic and mycophilic regions (as in Uralic
              peoples experience), France and the Mediterranean littoral from Majorca
              and Catalonia to Provence being exceptions to generally western peoples
              mycophobia. check out the more recent & rigorous study done by Johns
              Hopkins University on psilocybin mushrooms for potentially legal medical
              therapeutic use:
              http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html

              aija
            • bhvwd
              ... usual ... of ... even ... some are ... living ... chaos ... respect, ... to a ... by ... experiences ... of ... classified ... tricksters, ... from ...
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > > Perhaps it's merely a vigilant advocacy for the silent alien
                > > other who stands at the door but cannot or refuses to come in.
                > > Mary
                >
                > no problem, precedents exist if one is willing to look beyond the
                usual
                > norm.:)
                >
                > many pre-agricultural & herding peoples related to a great variety
                of
                > animals, not just herd animals, and some societies remembered this
                even
                > after they became domesticated. Bear Woman doesn't get the kind of
                > support from her mate as the wolf or the penguin (of the latter
                some are
                > homosexual). Inescapably Nature has variety and she is the first
                living
                > book that people study as to what niches living forms occupy.
                >
                > "Kungi raksta graamataa,
                > Saule kljava lapinjaa.
                > Lords/ masters write in a book,
                > Sun, she writes in a maple leaf."
                > (recorded in different variants, latv. folk/ daina-song)
                >
                > there are archaic societies that recognized order and disorder/
                chaos
                > beyond duality to be part of the same system. thus, awe and
                respect,
                > rather than vilification, fear, or hatred of the strange going back
                to a
                > cognitive revolution taking place throughout the world as evidenced
                by
                > cave and rock art. DMT (N,N-dimethyltryptamine) spiritual
                experiences
                > going back to those days gives the experience of making the strange
                > familiar and the familiar strange, as well as sensing connectedness
                of
                > all within Nature/ the Cosmos.
                >
                > until many Great Civilizations (starting with Zoroastrianism)
                classified
                > what was ambiguous as Evil, shamans, wise women/witches,
                tricksters,
                > third sexes, & so on were "our strangers" (all of them deviating
                from
                > the norm by choice or mis/fortune) esp. among such peoples as the
                > Uralic. ambiguous (potentially dangerous or helpful according to
                > circumstances), rather than Good or Bad natural forces or deities
                have
                > been more characteristic of archaic religions, and this is still
                the
                > case among a number of indigenous peoples who of course have
                modified
                > their traditions to fit current circumstances.
                >
                > from the ecological point of view non-dominant alternative world
                > insights are worth studying and respecting as part of human
                experience,
                > especially since normative truths of any one society are widely
                taken to
                > be self-evident, including the dominant ones today.
                >
                > animals and plants, later considered disgusting and associated with
                > witches or the Devil, such as toads, snakes, or mushrooms were in
                > earlier times respected as part of Nature. mystical experience,
                derived
                > from entheogenics &/or other means known in shamanism with
                reasonable
                > probability gave an early sense of all things being connected.
                >
                > one of the first to suggest the role of entheogenics in the
                > break-through to a pre-agricultural human spirituality, Gordon
                Wasson
                > (Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality, 1967) observed that Europe
                seemed
                > to be divided into mycophobic and mycophilic regions (as in Uralic
                > peoples experience), France and the Mediterranean littoral from
                Majorca
                > and Catalonia to Provence being exceptions to generally western
                peoples
                > mycophobia. check out the more recent & rigorous study done by
                Johns
                > Hopkins University on psilocybin mushrooms for potentially legal
                medical
                > therapeutic use:
                > http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html
                >
                > aija
                >Kiss my ass. And thanks for the religous slime tour, call Obam, he
                will get you a seet. Bill
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