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Re: Ferguson & Empires

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  • mary.jo11
    aija, Surely you re not surprised I consider empire and/or culture equally harmful and beneficial to the individual. The term folk connotes both security and
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 2, 2008
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      aija,

      Surely you're not surprised I consider empire and/or culture equally
      harmful and beneficial to the individual. The term "folk" connotes
      both security and horror for me. I realize there is an
      educational/vocational imperative to generalize about history and
      culture, but for the individual these are problematic when one needs
      to reject given values and traditions. I don't promote individualism
      as dogma but as personal necessity. We should validate the benign
      Other in our midst, regardless. We join at our own peril, and isn't
      this what some existentialists have so poignantly demonstrated with
      their own reckless endorsements?

      Mary
    • louise
      ... Mary, What I have a difficulty with are the general terms, if not tied to clear philosophical ideas. Existlist was often at its best when we were
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 2, 2008
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        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "mary.jo11" <mary.jo11@...> wrote:
        >
        > aija,
        >
        > Surely you're not surprised I consider empire and/or culture equally
        > harmful and beneficial to the individual. The term "folk" connotes
        > both security and horror for me. I realize there is an
        > educational/vocational imperative to generalize about history and
        > culture, but for the individual these are problematic when one needs
        > to reject given values and traditions. I don't promote individualism
        > as dogma but as personal necessity. We should validate the benign
        > Other in our midst, regardless. We join at our own peril, and isn't
        > this what some existentialists have so poignantly demonstrated with
        > their own reckless endorsements?
        >
        > Mary
        >

        Mary,

        What I have a difficulty with are the general terms, if not tied to
        clear philosophical ideas. Existlist was often at its best when we
        were informal, when learning is taken seriously but worn lightly, and
        there is room for shared personal anecdote, within reason. I agree
        with you, that "folk" may connote both security and horror, but I do
        not find the idea of "validating the benign Other" provides any sort
        of consolation. It is all so exclusive. Existentialism has become
        such a catch-all term it is rather absurd. In promoting
        individualism, you are exact in your terms. Yet there are many ways
        to be an individual, and some of them are criminal. You personally
        live in a moral way, so that in arguing here, sincerely and with
        honesty for your own vision, there is no suggestion of incitement to
        irresponsibility. That is a kind of connection to
        existentialism ,but we do not seem to be in existential territory.
        My quarrel with your position is really that you sometimes promote
        moralism, by your confidence with denunciation. I think the
        existential tradition still has plenty to offer, and that it can take
        us beyond moralism without destroying decent custom and morality for
        ordinary people who, as I have been so thoroughly instructed by
        experience, really have little care for philosophical thought.

        Louise
      • Aija Veldre Beldavs
        ... being stuck in one spacetime version of a term does create problems... are you also against its synonyms people and people s movements? communities? how
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 2, 2008
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          > aija,
          >
          > Surely you're not surprised I consider empire and/or culture equally
          > harmful and beneficial to the individual. The term "folk" connotes
          > both security and horror for me. I realize there is an
          > educational/vocational imperative to generalize about history and
          > culture, but for the individual these are problematic when one needs
          > to reject given values and traditions. I don't promote individualism
          > as dogma but as personal necessity. We should validate the benign
          > Other in our midst, regardless. We join at our own peril, and isn't
          > this what some existentialists have so poignantly demonstrated with
          > their own reckless endorsements?
          >
          > Mary

          being stuck in one spacetime version of a term does create problems...
          are you also against its synonyms people and people's movements?
          communities? how about consumers and consumer movements, then?

          i suppose there are those who think folklorists are some kind of
          sinister bunch, studying nefarious knowledge or that which is hopelessly
          outdated, and they would like indigenous peoples throughout the world
          should just shut up and dissolve. never mind that folklore studies
          living, dynamic, evolving human systems, just like related fields like
          anthropology and sociology, except it concentrates on the noncommercial
          artistic production also of ordinary people, while folklife takes
          special interest in non-dominant material culture.

          you have your take, here's mine based on actually working in the field,
          not just folkloristics but also with disadvantaged people in communities:

          humans have been living in hearths or households (which of course are
          NOT composed of just related people if the society is not radically
          endogamous and exclusive (the early dispersed societies in the Baltic
          were not, different anthropological types intermarrying) and small face
          to face groups since before being humans.

          social engineers have to work very hard to destroy mutually supportive
          relationships as such development has been a natural part of humans
          evolving. where this succeeds, people are less likely set free as
          become a) manipulable within mass society &/or b) dysfunctional.

          i believe people become free as they develop ever deeper and wider
          understanding of what the nature is of connectedness.

          there are all kinds of societies, including more open and closed. there
          are membership rituals to include those that are not members, marriage,
          adoption, blood brotherhood, and even strange things such as bee swarm
          kinship in the Baltic (an archaic kinship type based on sharing rights
          to forest honey as bee swarms migrate into unknown territory).

          tradition - (good, bad, both, neither) is a flexible mechanism of
          adaptation, not fixed, evaluated in terms of what it does. it takes at
          least two people, and usually more, to have tradition in that tradition
          involves communicating experience with someone other than oneself.

          aija
        • mary.jo11
          aija, I have the luxury of choosing to be contrary and non-traditional. Some Others do not. When you use a popular phrase such as the nature of connectedness
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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            aija,

            I have the luxury of choosing to be contrary and non-traditional. Some
            Others do not. When you use a popular phrase such as the "nature of
            connectedness" I cringe, because my experience is that only those who
            experience it know what it is. I've bleed on both sides of that sword.

            Mary
          • Aija Veldre Beldavs
            ... sorry your experience of connectedness has been negative. mine has been more positive than negative, though i ve learned from both, and it has been a means
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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              > I have the luxury of choosing to be contrary and non-traditional. Some
              > Others do not. When you use a popular phrase such as the "nature of
              > connectedness" I cringe, because my experience is that only those who
              > experience it know what it is. I've bleed on both sides of that sword.
              > Mary

              sorry your experience of connectedness has been negative.
              mine has been more positive than negative, though i've learned from
              both, and it has been a means for me to develop as an individual.
              alienation, connectedness, freedom, and enslavement are universally
              experienced in different degrees both individually and collectively.

              aija
            • mary.jo11
              Raising children has been the significant experience of my life, and I not so humbly consider it a contribution to society. I take issue with solidarity,
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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                Raising children has been the significant experience of my life, and I
                not so humbly consider it a contribution to society.

                I take issue with "solidarity," that existential ax, because of its
                tendency to totalitarian impulses, in both private and public spheres.
                The compromise and cost are usually not fully assessed until after the
                damage is done. Maybe I'm just old and tired. Things just seemed more
                romantic, idealistic, and possible when I was much younger. My hope
                for the future is tempered not rusted.

                This evening there will be fireworks and celebrations. We remember the
                individual privateers, slaves, and free men and women who forged this
                great melting pot into which we all eventually disappear, overly taxed
                and underrepresented, still luckier than many. Nation seems a strange
                and necessary construct.

                Existentialism isn't a static concept or philosophy seeking objective
                truths. Perhaps it's merely a vigilant advocacy for the silent alien
                other who stands at the door but cannot or refuses to come in. It
                recognizes a frustrating, unsolvable paradox. Even the most "normal"
                or "well adjusted" among us might feel that kind of incommunicable
                isolation.

                E pluribus unum now seems a clever marketing scam, no pun intended.

                Mary


                >sorry your experience of connectedness has been negative.
                >mine has been more positive than negative, though i've learned from
                >both, and it has been a means for me to develop as an individual.
                >alienation, connectedness, freedom, and enslavement are universally
                >experienced in different degrees both individually and collectively.

                aija
              • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                ... no problem, precedents exist if one is willing to look beyond the usual norm.:) many pre-agricultural & herding peoples related to a great variety of
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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                  > Perhaps it's merely a vigilant advocacy for the silent alien
                  > other who stands at the door but cannot or refuses to come in.
                  > Mary

                  no problem, precedents exist if one is willing to look beyond the usual
                  norm.:)

                  many pre-agricultural & herding peoples related to a great variety of
                  animals, not just herd animals, and some societies remembered this even
                  after they became domesticated. Bear Woman doesn't get the kind of
                  support from her mate as the wolf or the penguin (of the latter some are
                  homosexual). Inescapably Nature has variety and she is the first living
                  book that people study as to what niches living forms occupy.

                  "Kungi raksta graamataa,
                  Saule kljava lapinjaa.
                  Lords/ masters write in a book,
                  Sun, she writes in a maple leaf."
                  (recorded in different variants, latv. folk/ daina-song)

                  there are archaic societies that recognized order and disorder/ chaos
                  beyond duality to be part of the same system. thus, awe and respect,
                  rather than vilification, fear, or hatred of the strange going back to a
                  cognitive revolution taking place throughout the world as evidenced by
                  cave and rock art. DMT (N,N-dimethyltryptamine) spiritual experiences
                  going back to those days gives the experience of making the strange
                  familiar and the familiar strange, as well as sensing connectedness of
                  all within Nature/ the Cosmos.

                  until many Great Civilizations (starting with Zoroastrianism) classified
                  what was ambiguous as Evil, shamans, wise women/witches, tricksters,
                  third sexes, & so on were "our strangers" (all of them deviating from
                  the norm by choice or mis/fortune) esp. among such peoples as the
                  Uralic. ambiguous (potentially dangerous or helpful according to
                  circumstances), rather than Good or Bad natural forces or deities have
                  been more characteristic of archaic religions, and this is still the
                  case among a number of indigenous peoples who of course have modified
                  their traditions to fit current circumstances.

                  from the ecological point of view non-dominant alternative world
                  insights are worth studying and respecting as part of human experience,
                  especially since normative truths of any one society are widely taken to
                  be self-evident, including the dominant ones today.

                  animals and plants, later considered disgusting and associated with
                  witches or the Devil, such as toads, snakes, or mushrooms were in
                  earlier times respected as part of Nature. mystical experience, derived
                  from entheogenics &/or other means known in shamanism with reasonable
                  probability gave an early sense of all things being connected.

                  one of the first to suggest the role of entheogenics in the
                  break-through to a pre-agricultural human spirituality, Gordon Wasson
                  (Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality, 1967) observed that Europe seemed
                  to be divided into mycophobic and mycophilic regions (as in Uralic
                  peoples experience), France and the Mediterranean littoral from Majorca
                  and Catalonia to Provence being exceptions to generally western peoples
                  mycophobia. check out the more recent & rigorous study done by Johns
                  Hopkins University on psilocybin mushrooms for potentially legal medical
                  therapeutic use:
                  http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html

                  aija
                • bhvwd
                  ... usual ... of ... even ... some are ... living ... chaos ... respect, ... to a ... by ... experiences ... of ... classified ... tricksters, ... from ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
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                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > > Perhaps it's merely a vigilant advocacy for the silent alien
                    > > other who stands at the door but cannot or refuses to come in.
                    > > Mary
                    >
                    > no problem, precedents exist if one is willing to look beyond the
                    usual
                    > norm.:)
                    >
                    > many pre-agricultural & herding peoples related to a great variety
                    of
                    > animals, not just herd animals, and some societies remembered this
                    even
                    > after they became domesticated. Bear Woman doesn't get the kind of
                    > support from her mate as the wolf or the penguin (of the latter
                    some are
                    > homosexual). Inescapably Nature has variety and she is the first
                    living
                    > book that people study as to what niches living forms occupy.
                    >
                    > "Kungi raksta graamataa,
                    > Saule kljava lapinjaa.
                    > Lords/ masters write in a book,
                    > Sun, she writes in a maple leaf."
                    > (recorded in different variants, latv. folk/ daina-song)
                    >
                    > there are archaic societies that recognized order and disorder/
                    chaos
                    > beyond duality to be part of the same system. thus, awe and
                    respect,
                    > rather than vilification, fear, or hatred of the strange going back
                    to a
                    > cognitive revolution taking place throughout the world as evidenced
                    by
                    > cave and rock art. DMT (N,N-dimethyltryptamine) spiritual
                    experiences
                    > going back to those days gives the experience of making the strange
                    > familiar and the familiar strange, as well as sensing connectedness
                    of
                    > all within Nature/ the Cosmos.
                    >
                    > until many Great Civilizations (starting with Zoroastrianism)
                    classified
                    > what was ambiguous as Evil, shamans, wise women/witches,
                    tricksters,
                    > third sexes, & so on were "our strangers" (all of them deviating
                    from
                    > the norm by choice or mis/fortune) esp. among such peoples as the
                    > Uralic. ambiguous (potentially dangerous or helpful according to
                    > circumstances), rather than Good or Bad natural forces or deities
                    have
                    > been more characteristic of archaic religions, and this is still
                    the
                    > case among a number of indigenous peoples who of course have
                    modified
                    > their traditions to fit current circumstances.
                    >
                    > from the ecological point of view non-dominant alternative world
                    > insights are worth studying and respecting as part of human
                    experience,
                    > especially since normative truths of any one society are widely
                    taken to
                    > be self-evident, including the dominant ones today.
                    >
                    > animals and plants, later considered disgusting and associated with
                    > witches or the Devil, such as toads, snakes, or mushrooms were in
                    > earlier times respected as part of Nature. mystical experience,
                    derived
                    > from entheogenics &/or other means known in shamanism with
                    reasonable
                    > probability gave an early sense of all things being connected.
                    >
                    > one of the first to suggest the role of entheogenics in the
                    > break-through to a pre-agricultural human spirituality, Gordon
                    Wasson
                    > (Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality, 1967) observed that Europe
                    seemed
                    > to be divided into mycophobic and mycophilic regions (as in Uralic
                    > peoples experience), France and the Mediterranean littoral from
                    Majorca
                    > and Catalonia to Provence being exceptions to generally western
                    peoples
                    > mycophobia. check out the more recent & rigorous study done by
                    Johns
                    > Hopkins University on psilocybin mushrooms for potentially legal
                    medical
                    > therapeutic use:
                    > http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html
                    >
                    > aija
                    >Kiss my ass. And thanks for the religous slime tour, call Obam, he
                    will get you a seet. Bill
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