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Re: fittest aliens among us

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  • bhvwd
    ... the ... no ... which ... This ... checked ... as ... their ... a ... Ferguson. Do ... empires, ... understand the soft and unproven theory that extrinsic
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 1, 2008
      M--- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "mary.jo11" <mary.jo11@...> wrote:
      >
      > "We believe we have now shown that there is a tendency in nature to
      the
      > continued progression of certain classes of varieties further and
      > further from the original type—a progression to which there appears
      no
      > reason to assign any definite limits—and that the same principle
      which
      > produces this result in a state of nature will also explain why
      > domestic varieties have a tendency to revert to the original type.
      This
      > progression, by minute steps, in various directions, but always
      checked
      > and balanced by the necessary conditions, subject to which alone
      > existence can be preserved, may, it is believed, be followed out so
      as
      > to agree with all the phenomena presented by organized beings,
      their
      > extinction and succession in past ages, and all the extraordinary
      > modifications of form, instinct, and habits which they exhibit."
      >
      > From "On The Tendency of Species To Form Varieties"
      > C. Darwin & A. Wallace, 1858
      >
      > The horrible impulse in some of humanity to organize via racial
      > philosophy and ideology continues and my only defense against it is
      a
      > radical, individual, instinctual existentialism. For those who have
      > access to American public television programming, I recommend the
      > current three-part series, "The War Of The World" by Niall
      Ferguson. Do
      > we adapt and survive as individuals or as members of nations,
      empires,
      > or particular ethnic groups?
      >
      > Mary
      >Mary, As for as the DNA mutation, it is an individual matter. I
      understand the soft and unproven theory that extrinsic factors cause
      the mutation and therefore force evolution. It is the individuals
      DNA that is changed and may be passed on. To attribute this nidus of
      action to the environment is the idea that takes one into pantheist
      theory. That again, seems a retrograde activity.
      Robert Baer ,former CIA employee, says the Bush Adm. has been
      taken in by the Iran/Iraq oil consortium and the whole chance of
      continued cheap oil from those bastards is very small. Get ready for
      war, this time a real war with the whole world involved in one way or
      another. Bush the oil man will not be done this way and I do not see
      him sneaking away to Dubai. It may blow up, shit we all may blow up.
      You know my vote but I will no longer fan any flames. I`ll let the
      DOW do that and if you follow the market you too have motion
      sickness. The oil barons are demanding the world be given over to
      them and George is an oil man. Beyond morality and much more. I have
      been observing the theories of mind set of the Pharos, they would
      conquer the world and then force an afterlife. George claimed victory
      years ago in Iraq and now he has an excuse to go finish the war.
      Handing over to his successor a world in flames certainly favors the
      republican. So we take the oil and watch the world heat up as we burn
      all the oil we can get our hands on. Talk about a short term solution!
      I recently attended a session in rules pertaining to elder and
      child abuse. The whole area is a mad Hodge podge of single interest
      rules and is a horrible bureaucratic madness. You do not reform
      something like that , not in ten lifetimes. Something big and bad
      enough has to come to blow it away. Very few systems preform
      satisfactorily and multiple failures are overtaking our ability to
      fund them. One way or another we are facing hard corrections . I
      could see something like the cultural revolution of Mao, but bigger.
      Then we will see if we adapt and survive as individuals or as members
      of the PTA. Here, they are starting to fight in bars over the new
      smoking legislation, you can take your gun but not your butts. Come
      on folks, this is dichotomy leading to anarchy. We want very
      different things and are working toward nothing. I`ll try to do my
      job until they put one in my skull, even then they will bitch if I
      don`t take emergencies. Bill
    • Aija Veldre Beldavs
      ... haven t seen the series, but have heard good empire apologist Niall Ferguson on TV. Ferguson is certainly worth listening to, and some of his
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 1, 2008
        > The horrible impulse in some of humanity to organize via racial
        > philosophy and ideology continues and my only defense against it is a
        > radical, individual, instinctual existentialism. For those who have
        > access to American public television programming, I recommend the
        > current three-part series, "The War Of The World" by Niall Ferguson. Do
        > we adapt and survive as individuals or as members of nations, empires,
        > or particular ethnic groups?
        > Mary

        haven't seen the series, but have heard "good" empire apologist Niall
        Ferguson on TV. Ferguson is certainly worth listening to, and some of
        his interpretations of history are worth examining, but the Baltic folk
        experience is anti-empire: as "undeutsch" (non-German) within the
        Russian Empire, Baltic indigenous people before Enlightenment and Herder
        were considered inferior (like the Irish in the West) and not in need of
        education since laborer peoples weren't supposed to be capable of higher
        sensibilities.

        Enlightenment in contrast didn't deny these sensibilities, but at the
        time assumed indigenous people would be assimilated to Higher Culture,
        which in the Baltic was declared to be equivalent to German and
        Christian. Herder went a step further than Enlightenment by stating
        indigenous languages and culture were in themselves valuable to humanity
        in terms of ecological variety.

        many Balts and Finns, as members of underclasses, were strongly leftist
        prior to the recently documented secret murder of Finns in Karelia
        before the invasion of Finland and prior to purges in 1937 in Russia of
        Latvian Reds prior to the invasion of the Baltic.

        i can agree with Ferguson there are more and less cruel empires, but
        that doesn't mean that Empire is an optimal structure in terms of
        enlightened, humane values. the British Empire, even as it opposed such
        gross forms of asymmetry of rights as caste, slavery, and female
        infanticide or suttee/sati, imposed its own inequalities in terms of
        religion, race, and class. it was no different from other empires in
        that it assumed One culture was more equal than others: British culture
        as superior. (i have no reason not to believe that enlightened Western
        Europeans no longer hold this prejudice.)

        Empire can also be opposed in it claim to right of "lebensraum,"
        colonial privileges, paternal over-seership, and Manifest Destiny, even
        if relatively benign. Empire does carry with it a layer of monoculture
        and normalization, such as mcdonaldisation. structurally a federation of
        a variety of states united by enlightened and humane humane laws with
        safeguards against aggression by any member is better if humane values,
        including diversity, are the goal.

        aija
      • bhvwd
        ... is a ... have ... Ferguson. Do ... empires, ... Niall ... of ... folk ... Herder ... need of ... higher ... the ... Culture, ... stating ... humanity ...
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 1, 2008
          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > > The horrible impulse in some of humanity to organize via racial
          > > philosophy and ideology continues and my only defense against it
          is a
          > > radical, individual, instinctual existentialism. For those who
          have
          > > access to American public television programming, I recommend the
          > > current three-part series, "The War Of The World" by Niall
          Ferguson. Do
          > > we adapt and survive as individuals or as members of nations,
          empires,
          > > or particular ethnic groups?
          > > Mary
          >
          > haven't seen the series, but have heard "good" empire apologist
          Niall
          > Ferguson on TV. Ferguson is certainly worth listening to, and some
          of
          > his interpretations of history are worth examining, but the Baltic
          folk
          > experience is anti-empire: as "undeutsch" (non-German) within the
          > Russian Empire, Baltic indigenous people before Enlightenment and
          Herder
          > were considered inferior (like the Irish in the West) and not in
          need of
          > education since laborer peoples weren't supposed to be capable of
          higher
          > sensibilities.
          >
          > Enlightenment in contrast didn't deny these sensibilities, but at
          the
          > time assumed indigenous people would be assimilated to Higher
          Culture,
          > which in the Baltic was declared to be equivalent to German and
          > Christian. Herder went a step further than Enlightenment by
          stating
          > indigenous languages and culture were in themselves valuable to
          humanity
          > in terms of ecological variety.
          >
          > many Balts and Finns, as members of underclasses, were strongly
          leftist
          > prior to the recently documented secret murder of Finns in Karelia
          > before the invasion of Finland and prior to purges in 1937 in
          Russia of
          > Latvian Reds prior to the invasion of the Baltic.
          >
          > i can agree with Ferguson there are more and less cruel empires,
          but
          > that doesn't mean that Empire is an optimal structure in terms of
          > enlightened, humane values. the British Empire, even as it opposed
          such
          > gross forms of asymmetry of rights as caste, slavery, and female
          > infanticide or suttee/sati, imposed its own inequalities in terms
          of
          > religion, race, and class. it was no different from other empires
          in
          > that it assumed One culture was more equal than others: British
          culture
          > as superior. (i have no reason not to believe that enlightened
          Western
          > Europeans no longer hold this prejudice.)
          >
          > Empire can also be opposed in it claim to right of "lebensraum,"
          > colonial privileges, paternal over-seership, and Manifest Destiny,
          even
          > if relatively benign. Empire does carry with it a layer of
          monoculture
          > and normalization, such as mcdonaldisation. structurally a
          federation of
          > a variety of states united by enlightened and humane humane laws
          with
          > safeguards against aggression by any member is better if humane
          values,
          > including diversity, are the goal.
          >
          > aija
          >No reason not to believe? Aiija, If you get the pronounds correct we
          might build a fabulous world. But it is mostly for you, we old
          Americans are tired so come try to take our future, it is wild and
          still free. Bill
        • mary.jo11
          aija, Surely you re not surprised I consider empire and/or culture equally harmful and beneficial to the individual. The term folk connotes both security and
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 2, 2008
            aija,

            Surely you're not surprised I consider empire and/or culture equally
            harmful and beneficial to the individual. The term "folk" connotes
            both security and horror for me. I realize there is an
            educational/vocational imperative to generalize about history and
            culture, but for the individual these are problematic when one needs
            to reject given values and traditions. I don't promote individualism
            as dogma but as personal necessity. We should validate the benign
            Other in our midst, regardless. We join at our own peril, and isn't
            this what some existentialists have so poignantly demonstrated with
            their own reckless endorsements?

            Mary
          • louise
            ... Mary, What I have a difficulty with are the general terms, if not tied to clear philosophical ideas. Existlist was often at its best when we were
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 2, 2008
              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "mary.jo11" <mary.jo11@...> wrote:
              >
              > aija,
              >
              > Surely you're not surprised I consider empire and/or culture equally
              > harmful and beneficial to the individual. The term "folk" connotes
              > both security and horror for me. I realize there is an
              > educational/vocational imperative to generalize about history and
              > culture, but for the individual these are problematic when one needs
              > to reject given values and traditions. I don't promote individualism
              > as dogma but as personal necessity. We should validate the benign
              > Other in our midst, regardless. We join at our own peril, and isn't
              > this what some existentialists have so poignantly demonstrated with
              > their own reckless endorsements?
              >
              > Mary
              >

              Mary,

              What I have a difficulty with are the general terms, if not tied to
              clear philosophical ideas. Existlist was often at its best when we
              were informal, when learning is taken seriously but worn lightly, and
              there is room for shared personal anecdote, within reason. I agree
              with you, that "folk" may connote both security and horror, but I do
              not find the idea of "validating the benign Other" provides any sort
              of consolation. It is all so exclusive. Existentialism has become
              such a catch-all term it is rather absurd. In promoting
              individualism, you are exact in your terms. Yet there are many ways
              to be an individual, and some of them are criminal. You personally
              live in a moral way, so that in arguing here, sincerely and with
              honesty for your own vision, there is no suggestion of incitement to
              irresponsibility. That is a kind of connection to
              existentialism ,but we do not seem to be in existential territory.
              My quarrel with your position is really that you sometimes promote
              moralism, by your confidence with denunciation. I think the
              existential tradition still has plenty to offer, and that it can take
              us beyond moralism without destroying decent custom and morality for
              ordinary people who, as I have been so thoroughly instructed by
              experience, really have little care for philosophical thought.

              Louise
            • Aija Veldre Beldavs
              ... being stuck in one spacetime version of a term does create problems... are you also against its synonyms people and people s movements? communities? how
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 2, 2008
                > aija,
                >
                > Surely you're not surprised I consider empire and/or culture equally
                > harmful and beneficial to the individual. The term "folk" connotes
                > both security and horror for me. I realize there is an
                > educational/vocational imperative to generalize about history and
                > culture, but for the individual these are problematic when one needs
                > to reject given values and traditions. I don't promote individualism
                > as dogma but as personal necessity. We should validate the benign
                > Other in our midst, regardless. We join at our own peril, and isn't
                > this what some existentialists have so poignantly demonstrated with
                > their own reckless endorsements?
                >
                > Mary

                being stuck in one spacetime version of a term does create problems...
                are you also against its synonyms people and people's movements?
                communities? how about consumers and consumer movements, then?

                i suppose there are those who think folklorists are some kind of
                sinister bunch, studying nefarious knowledge or that which is hopelessly
                outdated, and they would like indigenous peoples throughout the world
                should just shut up and dissolve. never mind that folklore studies
                living, dynamic, evolving human systems, just like related fields like
                anthropology and sociology, except it concentrates on the noncommercial
                artistic production also of ordinary people, while folklife takes
                special interest in non-dominant material culture.

                you have your take, here's mine based on actually working in the field,
                not just folkloristics but also with disadvantaged people in communities:

                humans have been living in hearths or households (which of course are
                NOT composed of just related people if the society is not radically
                endogamous and exclusive (the early dispersed societies in the Baltic
                were not, different anthropological types intermarrying) and small face
                to face groups since before being humans.

                social engineers have to work very hard to destroy mutually supportive
                relationships as such development has been a natural part of humans
                evolving. where this succeeds, people are less likely set free as
                become a) manipulable within mass society &/or b) dysfunctional.

                i believe people become free as they develop ever deeper and wider
                understanding of what the nature is of connectedness.

                there are all kinds of societies, including more open and closed. there
                are membership rituals to include those that are not members, marriage,
                adoption, blood brotherhood, and even strange things such as bee swarm
                kinship in the Baltic (an archaic kinship type based on sharing rights
                to forest honey as bee swarms migrate into unknown territory).

                tradition - (good, bad, both, neither) is a flexible mechanism of
                adaptation, not fixed, evaluated in terms of what it does. it takes at
                least two people, and usually more, to have tradition in that tradition
                involves communicating experience with someone other than oneself.

                aija
              • mary.jo11
                aija, I have the luxury of choosing to be contrary and non-traditional. Some Others do not. When you use a popular phrase such as the nature of connectedness
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
                  aija,

                  I have the luxury of choosing to be contrary and non-traditional. Some
                  Others do not. When you use a popular phrase such as the "nature of
                  connectedness" I cringe, because my experience is that only those who
                  experience it know what it is. I've bleed on both sides of that sword.

                  Mary
                • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                  ... sorry your experience of connectedness has been negative. mine has been more positive than negative, though i ve learned from both, and it has been a means
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
                    > I have the luxury of choosing to be contrary and non-traditional. Some
                    > Others do not. When you use a popular phrase such as the "nature of
                    > connectedness" I cringe, because my experience is that only those who
                    > experience it know what it is. I've bleed on both sides of that sword.
                    > Mary

                    sorry your experience of connectedness has been negative.
                    mine has been more positive than negative, though i've learned from
                    both, and it has been a means for me to develop as an individual.
                    alienation, connectedness, freedom, and enslavement are universally
                    experienced in different degrees both individually and collectively.

                    aija
                  • mary.jo11
                    Raising children has been the significant experience of my life, and I not so humbly consider it a contribution to society. I take issue with solidarity,
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
                      Raising children has been the significant experience of my life, and I
                      not so humbly consider it a contribution to society.

                      I take issue with "solidarity," that existential ax, because of its
                      tendency to totalitarian impulses, in both private and public spheres.
                      The compromise and cost are usually not fully assessed until after the
                      damage is done. Maybe I'm just old and tired. Things just seemed more
                      romantic, idealistic, and possible when I was much younger. My hope
                      for the future is tempered not rusted.

                      This evening there will be fireworks and celebrations. We remember the
                      individual privateers, slaves, and free men and women who forged this
                      great melting pot into which we all eventually disappear, overly taxed
                      and underrepresented, still luckier than many. Nation seems a strange
                      and necessary construct.

                      Existentialism isn't a static concept or philosophy seeking objective
                      truths. Perhaps it's merely a vigilant advocacy for the silent alien
                      other who stands at the door but cannot or refuses to come in. It
                      recognizes a frustrating, unsolvable paradox. Even the most "normal"
                      or "well adjusted" among us might feel that kind of incommunicable
                      isolation.

                      E pluribus unum now seems a clever marketing scam, no pun intended.

                      Mary


                      >sorry your experience of connectedness has been negative.
                      >mine has been more positive than negative, though i've learned from
                      >both, and it has been a means for me to develop as an individual.
                      >alienation, connectedness, freedom, and enslavement are universally
                      >experienced in different degrees both individually and collectively.

                      aija
                    • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                      ... no problem, precedents exist if one is willing to look beyond the usual norm.:) many pre-agricultural & herding peoples related to a great variety of
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
                        > Perhaps it's merely a vigilant advocacy for the silent alien
                        > other who stands at the door but cannot or refuses to come in.
                        > Mary

                        no problem, precedents exist if one is willing to look beyond the usual
                        norm.:)

                        many pre-agricultural & herding peoples related to a great variety of
                        animals, not just herd animals, and some societies remembered this even
                        after they became domesticated. Bear Woman doesn't get the kind of
                        support from her mate as the wolf or the penguin (of the latter some are
                        homosexual). Inescapably Nature has variety and she is the first living
                        book that people study as to what niches living forms occupy.

                        "Kungi raksta graamataa,
                        Saule kljava lapinjaa.
                        Lords/ masters write in a book,
                        Sun, she writes in a maple leaf."
                        (recorded in different variants, latv. folk/ daina-song)

                        there are archaic societies that recognized order and disorder/ chaos
                        beyond duality to be part of the same system. thus, awe and respect,
                        rather than vilification, fear, or hatred of the strange going back to a
                        cognitive revolution taking place throughout the world as evidenced by
                        cave and rock art. DMT (N,N-dimethyltryptamine) spiritual experiences
                        going back to those days gives the experience of making the strange
                        familiar and the familiar strange, as well as sensing connectedness of
                        all within Nature/ the Cosmos.

                        until many Great Civilizations (starting with Zoroastrianism) classified
                        what was ambiguous as Evil, shamans, wise women/witches, tricksters,
                        third sexes, & so on were "our strangers" (all of them deviating from
                        the norm by choice or mis/fortune) esp. among such peoples as the
                        Uralic. ambiguous (potentially dangerous or helpful according to
                        circumstances), rather than Good or Bad natural forces or deities have
                        been more characteristic of archaic religions, and this is still the
                        case among a number of indigenous peoples who of course have modified
                        their traditions to fit current circumstances.

                        from the ecological point of view non-dominant alternative world
                        insights are worth studying and respecting as part of human experience,
                        especially since normative truths of any one society are widely taken to
                        be self-evident, including the dominant ones today.

                        animals and plants, later considered disgusting and associated with
                        witches or the Devil, such as toads, snakes, or mushrooms were in
                        earlier times respected as part of Nature. mystical experience, derived
                        from entheogenics &/or other means known in shamanism with reasonable
                        probability gave an early sense of all things being connected.

                        one of the first to suggest the role of entheogenics in the
                        break-through to a pre-agricultural human spirituality, Gordon Wasson
                        (Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality, 1967) observed that Europe seemed
                        to be divided into mycophobic and mycophilic regions (as in Uralic
                        peoples experience), France and the Mediterranean littoral from Majorca
                        and Catalonia to Provence being exceptions to generally western peoples
                        mycophobia. check out the more recent & rigorous study done by Johns
                        Hopkins University on psilocybin mushrooms for potentially legal medical
                        therapeutic use:
                        http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html

                        aija
                      • bhvwd
                        ... usual ... of ... even ... some are ... living ... chaos ... respect, ... to a ... by ... experiences ... of ... classified ... tricksters, ... from ...
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 3, 2008
                          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > > Perhaps it's merely a vigilant advocacy for the silent alien
                          > > other who stands at the door but cannot or refuses to come in.
                          > > Mary
                          >
                          > no problem, precedents exist if one is willing to look beyond the
                          usual
                          > norm.:)
                          >
                          > many pre-agricultural & herding peoples related to a great variety
                          of
                          > animals, not just herd animals, and some societies remembered this
                          even
                          > after they became domesticated. Bear Woman doesn't get the kind of
                          > support from her mate as the wolf or the penguin (of the latter
                          some are
                          > homosexual). Inescapably Nature has variety and she is the first
                          living
                          > book that people study as to what niches living forms occupy.
                          >
                          > "Kungi raksta graamataa,
                          > Saule kljava lapinjaa.
                          > Lords/ masters write in a book,
                          > Sun, she writes in a maple leaf."
                          > (recorded in different variants, latv. folk/ daina-song)
                          >
                          > there are archaic societies that recognized order and disorder/
                          chaos
                          > beyond duality to be part of the same system. thus, awe and
                          respect,
                          > rather than vilification, fear, or hatred of the strange going back
                          to a
                          > cognitive revolution taking place throughout the world as evidenced
                          by
                          > cave and rock art. DMT (N,N-dimethyltryptamine) spiritual
                          experiences
                          > going back to those days gives the experience of making the strange
                          > familiar and the familiar strange, as well as sensing connectedness
                          of
                          > all within Nature/ the Cosmos.
                          >
                          > until many Great Civilizations (starting with Zoroastrianism)
                          classified
                          > what was ambiguous as Evil, shamans, wise women/witches,
                          tricksters,
                          > third sexes, & so on were "our strangers" (all of them deviating
                          from
                          > the norm by choice or mis/fortune) esp. among such peoples as the
                          > Uralic. ambiguous (potentially dangerous or helpful according to
                          > circumstances), rather than Good or Bad natural forces or deities
                          have
                          > been more characteristic of archaic religions, and this is still
                          the
                          > case among a number of indigenous peoples who of course have
                          modified
                          > their traditions to fit current circumstances.
                          >
                          > from the ecological point of view non-dominant alternative world
                          > insights are worth studying and respecting as part of human
                          experience,
                          > especially since normative truths of any one society are widely
                          taken to
                          > be self-evident, including the dominant ones today.
                          >
                          > animals and plants, later considered disgusting and associated with
                          > witches or the Devil, such as toads, snakes, or mushrooms were in
                          > earlier times respected as part of Nature. mystical experience,
                          derived
                          > from entheogenics &/or other means known in shamanism with
                          reasonable
                          > probability gave an early sense of all things being connected.
                          >
                          > one of the first to suggest the role of entheogenics in the
                          > break-through to a pre-agricultural human spirituality, Gordon
                          Wasson
                          > (Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality, 1967) observed that Europe
                          seemed
                          > to be divided into mycophobic and mycophilic regions (as in Uralic
                          > peoples experience), France and the Mediterranean littoral from
                          Majorca
                          > and Catalonia to Provence being exceptions to generally western
                          peoples
                          > mycophobia. check out the more recent & rigorous study done by
                          Johns
                          > Hopkins University on psilocybin mushrooms for potentially legal
                          medical
                          > therapeutic use:
                          > http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/07_11_06.html
                          >
                          > aija
                          >Kiss my ass. And thanks for the religous slime tour, call Obam, he
                          will get you a seet. Bill
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