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Passion for change

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  • louise
    Jim (replying to Herman, #44309) Nietzsche was not indifferent to existence as a whole ... He was, however, indifferent to the details of existence - he was
    Message 1 of 9 , May 1, 2008
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      Jim (replying to Herman, #44309)
      "Nietzsche was not indifferent to existence as a whole ... He was,
      however, indifferent to the details of existence - he was not a
      person to go out of his way to being about change. He seemed
      remarkably indifferent to the lives of other people."

      I could not disagree more. His life was spent in the service of a
      dream which he wished to see translated into the reality of genuine
      national and European renewal. He was appalled at the woodenly
      historical culture of nineteenth-century Germany, the grossly
      militaristic excesses of Prussian culture. He felt acutely the
      difference between genuine Hellenic artistry and the kind of society
      which could make possible such individualities, on the one hand, and
      the blundering attempts at inculcating merely historical and
      scientific knowledge on the other. This does not, in my view, imply
      an indifference to the life of the common people, only a realistic
      appreciation of the damage that is done to an entire culture by
      suppression of the most fundamental instincts of men and women of all
      classes, by the refusal to observe degrees of rank. Nothing,
      however, to do with the pretentions of status. Nietzsche understands
      the true glory of the animal, not as terrifying beast, I mean, but as
      divinity. In man this manifests as what he terms the unhistorical.
      His argument is for a proper balance between the historical and
      unhistorical impulses which go to make up the existing individual,
      stated explicitly in his essay of 1874, 'On the Uses and Abuses of
      History for Life'. Louise

      http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/history.htm
    • jimstuart51
      Louise, My experience of Nietzsche is that he says completely opposite things at different stages in his authorship – sometimes in the same book. I don t
      Message 2 of 9 , May 1, 2008
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        Louise,

        My experience of Nietzsche is that he says completely opposite things
        at different stages in his authorship – sometimes in the same book.

        I don't wish to deny what you are saying. Nietzsche does indeed pass
        judgement on the intellectual and cultural trends he sees taking place
        in his time, and he clearly has a vision of what a good intellectual
        and cultural environment would be.

        However, I still think the implication of the two `amor fati' passages
        I quote in my post 44303 express a satisfaction with the way things
        are, and by implication, a judgement that there is no need to try to
        change things.

        Jim
      • eupraxis@aol.com
        Jim, No, I think you are still reading those passages too narrowly. Nietzsche s principle M.O. is against the psychology of falsification, as one might say. He
        Message 3 of 9 , May 1, 2008
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          Jim,

          No, I think you are still reading those passages too narrowly.
          Nietzsche's principle M.O. is against the psychology of falsification,
          as one might say. He would be against the metaphysical impulse (which
          he calls metaphysical comfort in his early work) that wants to say, for
          example, "that cannot have been so, therefore it wasn't so." He also
          against the kind of false pessimism that he finds in some of
          Schopenhauer that says "no" to the future because it spells possible
          pain.

          You seem still to see N as some stripe of fatalist.

          Yours,
          Wil


          However, I still think the implication of the two `amor fati' passages

          I quote in my post 44303 express a satisfaction with the way things

          are, and by implication, a judgement that there is no need to try to

          change things.



          Jim



          -----Original Message-----
          From: jimstuart51 <jjimstuart1@...>
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 5:32 pm
          Subject: [existlist] Re: Passion for change

























          Louise,



          My experience of Nietzsche is that he says completely opposite things

          at different stages in his authorship – sometimes in the same book.



          I don't wish to deny what you are saying. Nietzsche does indeed pass

          judgement on the intellectual and cultural trends he sees taking place

          in his time, and he clearly has a vision of what a good intellectual

          and cultural environment would be.



          However, I still think the implication of the two `amor fati' passages

          I quote in my post 44303 express a satisfaction with the way things

          are, and by implication, a judgement that there is no need to try to

          change things.



          Jim
        • louise
          ... things ... pass ... place ... intellectual ... passages ... to ... Jim, yes, your clarification is helpful. In the quotation you mention, in 44303, from
          Message 4 of 9 , May 1, 2008
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            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "jimstuart51" <jjimstuart1@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Louise,
            >
            > My experience of Nietzsche is that he says completely opposite
            things
            > at different stages in his authorship – sometimes in the same book.
            >
            > I don't wish to deny what you are saying. Nietzsche does indeed
            pass
            > judgement on the intellectual and cultural trends he sees taking
            place
            > in his time, and he clearly has a vision of what a good
            intellectual
            > and cultural environment would be.
            >
            > However, I still think the implication of the two `amor fati'
            passages
            > I quote in my post 44303 express a satisfaction with the way things
            > are, and by implication, a judgement that there is no need to try
            to
            > change things.
            >
            > Jim
            >
            Jim, yes, your clarification is helpful. In the quotation you
            mention, in 44303, from the Fourth Section of "Joyful Wisdom", he
            does indicate his wish to be one of those "who make things
            beautiful", which is an acknowledgment of the power of human will, in
            co-operating with fate, to be part of natural process. I think that
            temperamentally I am similar to Nietzsche, that experience reveals
            this sort of 'changing things' to be the only possible way. This,
            however, is a subjective judgment, and others with different
            temperaments may have entirely different perspective, something for
            which Nietzsche's more discursive flights of thought make full
            provision. Namely, the idea that the truth is that which enables a
            particular species of being, including the species, individual man,
            to survive. I think there is a kind of link here with Kierkegaard's
            thesis, in the pseudonym, Johannes Climacus, for the subjectivity of
            truth. I find Kierkegaard's sensibility to be in some ways more
            warmly human, and humorous, than the exalted and rhetorical Saxon.
            Both, however, bring forth resonances from that which is deepest in
            my own nature. Louise
          • Herman B. Triplegood
            Yeah, ditto what Louise said. Hb3g ... society ... and ... imply ... all ... understands ... as
            Message 5 of 9 , May 1, 2008
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              Yeah, ditto what Louise said.

              Hb3g

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jim (replying to Herman, #44309)
              > "Nietzsche was not indifferent to existence as a whole ... He was,
              > however, indifferent to the details of existence - he was not a
              > person to go out of his way to being about change. He seemed
              > remarkably indifferent to the lives of other people."
              >
              > I could not disagree more. His life was spent in the service of a
              > dream which he wished to see translated into the reality of genuine
              > national and European renewal. He was appalled at the woodenly
              > historical culture of nineteenth-century Germany, the grossly
              > militaristic excesses of Prussian culture. He felt acutely the
              > difference between genuine Hellenic artistry and the kind of
              society
              > which could make possible such individualities, on the one hand,
              and
              > the blundering attempts at inculcating merely historical and
              > scientific knowledge on the other. This does not, in my view,
              imply
              > an indifference to the life of the common people, only a realistic
              > appreciation of the damage that is done to an entire culture by
              > suppression of the most fundamental instincts of men and women of
              all
              > classes, by the refusal to observe degrees of rank. Nothing,
              > however, to do with the pretentions of status. Nietzsche
              understands
              > the true glory of the animal, not as terrifying beast, I mean, but
              as
              > divinity. In man this manifests as what he terms the unhistorical.
              > His argument is for a proper balance between the historical and
              > unhistorical impulses which go to make up the existing individual,
              > stated explicitly in his essay of 1874, 'On the Uses and Abuses of
              > History for Life'. Louise
              >
              > http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/history.htm
              >
            • jimstuart51
              Thank you, Wil and Louise. You each make good points which I need to bear in mind as I continue my reading of Nietzsche. Jim
              Message 6 of 9 , May 1, 2008
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                Thank you, Wil and Louise.

                You each make good points which I need to bear in mind as I continue my
                reading of Nietzsche.

                Jim
              • bhvwd
                ... my
                Message 7 of 9 , May 1, 2008
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                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "jimstuart51" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you, Wil and Louise.
                  >
                  > You each make good points which I need to bear in mind as I continue
                  my
                  > reading of Nietzsche.
                  >
                  > Jim
                  >=[-[[[
                • Herman B. Triplegood
                  Tell me where you are at with your reading of Nietzsche Jim. I spent time with him a few months back, around November or December or so. Have you read the
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 4, 2008
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                    Tell me where you are at with your reading of Nietzsche Jim. I spent
                    time with him a few months back, around November or December or so.
                    Have you read the early stuff like Untimely meditations and Human All
                    Too Human?

                    Hb3g

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "jimstuart51" <jjimstuart1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thank you, Wil and Louise.
                    >
                    > You each make good points which I need to bear in mind as I continue
                    my
                    > reading of Nietzsche.
                    >
                    > Jim
                    >
                  • jimstuart51
                    Hb3g, I have read all of Nietzsche s `mature works from The Gay Science onwards. I have not read the two early works you mention. I gather that some of the
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 4, 2008
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                      Hb3g,

                      I have read all of Nietzsche's `mature' works from "The Gay Science"
                      onwards.

                      I have not read the two early works you mention. I gather that some
                      of the ideas Nietzsche expressed in his early works, he subsequently
                      modified or rejected later.

                      I also have not read his "Will to Power", but, like Wil, I am rather
                      suspicious of this text as Nietzsche did not choose to publish it,
                      and it was edited after his death. We will never know if the ideas
                      Nietzsche expresses in this work, were ideas he fully endorsed, or,
                      rather, were ideas he had not fully made up his mind about.

                      Whilst I think Nietzsche was a philosophical genius and expressed
                      many true and profound thoughts, I don't think I am as positive about
                      him as Louise and Wil are.

                      I think he was too wrapped up in himself, and he did not give
                      sufficient weight to the needs and well-being of others. He was not
                      concerned enough for others, in my opinion.

                      Jim
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