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Re: Autistic Minds

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  • bhvwd
    ... I am beginning to have some very disturbing thoughts about the malady but the numbers become most important in planning any response to the phenominon.
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 3 7:49 AM
      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "mary.jo11" <ophiuchus@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank you, C.S. We are each differently abled. There is no evidence
      > that we can all experience the world from one perspective. Best
      > wishes, Mary
      >Do we as yet know the numbers on autism?How many per 500 live births?
      I am beginning to have some very disturbing thoughts about the malady
      but the numbers become most important in planning any response to the
      phenominon. Is it equally spread over ethnic groups, races, religions
      and geographic areas? Are there socio economic groups who experience
      higher numbers?
      I think CSW probably knows where I am headed with this and He may
      chastise me for even thinking autism is a genetic response to general
      overcrowding of the human species. If I go back to basics "Survival
      of the fittest" stands out as a dismal sign on the genetic highway of
      all species. I think many genes will be found to be involved but that
      is a guess. Treatments for multi factored disease are usually complex
      and expensive. The "fittest" will eventually have much to say about
      expenditure of scarce resources to those who produce little or nothing.
      I am beginning to think of autism as genetic Jahaad and the prospects
      seem glum for huge expenditure if the problem is viewed as a price
      we pay for our overpopulation. I put this out and think CSW will bat
      it down with good knowledge of the more precise situation. I`m
      throwing him a big meat ball and I hope he hits it out of the park. Bill
    • Aija Veldre Beldavs
      ... also from me thanks. my epistemology draws both from the empathic and rational, but my greatest respect goes out to people close to me who draw more from
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 3 8:02 AM
        mary.jo11 wrote:
        > Thank you, C.S. We are each differently abled. There is no evidence
        > that we can all experience the world from one perspective. Best
        > wishes, Mary

        also from me thanks.
        my epistemology draws both from the empathic and rational, but my
        greatest respect goes out to people close to me who draw more from one
        or the other and have had to struggle to find ways to appreciate the
        other. such engagement is a good part of authenticity.

        aija
      • Exist List Moderator
        ... While we know ASDs are diagnosed at a much higher rate in males (1:3 to 1:7), there is not a clear ethnic bias. Rumors to the contrary, autism does exist
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 3 10:14 AM
          On Apr 03, 2008, at 9:49, bhvwd wrote:
          > I am beginning to have some very disturbing thoughts about the malady
          > but the numbers become most important in planning any response to the
          > phenominon. Is it equally spread over ethnic groups, races, religions
          > and geographic areas? Are there socio economic groups who experience
          > higher numbers?

          While we know ASDs are diagnosed at a much higher rate in males (1:3
          to 1:7), there is not a clear ethnic bias. Rumors to the contrary,
          autism does exist in groups that do not get vaccines, do not live in
          cities, do not eat commercial crops, etc. (There was a "journalist"
          who reported there was no autism among the Amish -- he didn't bother
          to find out they don't get medical diagnoses and don't file for social
          services. Once a study was done, we also found seizure disorders,
          retardation, and everything else that afflicts humans.)

          The "rich" and those best educated are most likely to have children
          diagnosed with autism. Again, this goes to the availability of
          resources and not an actual increase in incidence.

          The "autism epidemic" is about awareness, most likely. In Minnesota, I
          have charted the increase in "autism" against a marked decrease in
          "retardation" and the charts are precisely related. As autism
          diagnoses increased, retardation declined. It's all about words....
          which is very in tune with phenomenology and words leading to
          experiences.

          > I think CSW probably knows where I am headed with this and He may
          > chastise me for even thinking autism is a genetic response to general
          > overcrowding of the human species.

          If anything, I wonder about the risks implicit in a group that is just
          two or three steps removed from sociopathy. Thankfully, autism leads
          to a "black and white" morality, and no one knows why. Instead of "I
          can do anything, since you don't exist," the autistic mind seems to
          insist upon rigid adherence to rules and order. These rules are not
          the same as laws, so our move is to make ASD students understand there
          are illogical rules they must follow. Okay... this isn't much better
          if we look at what fascism would do with perfect law-abiding
          individuals. "I was just following the law" is not much better than
          sociopathy in some cases.

          Trying to teach social awareness to ASD students has led to a number
          of books on the topic. There is a scale we use, too. The teaching
          includes "A '5' is illegal." You end up hoping the ASD student
          memorizes enough rules to stay out of trouble. Their B&W morality
          would be a good thing, if it didn't lead to legal conflicts.

          - C. S. Wyatt
          I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
          that I shall be.
          http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
          http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
        • bhvwd
          ... malady ... to the ... religions ... experience ... (1:3 ... in ... a journalist ... bother ... social ... children ... Minnesota, I ... words.... ...
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 4 7:26 AM
            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
            <existlist1@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Apr 03, 2008, at 9:49, bhvwd wrote:
            > > I am beginning to have some very disturbing thoughts about the
            malady
            > > but the numbers become most important in planning any response
            to the
            > > phenominon. Is it equally spread over ethnic groups, races,
            religions
            > > and geographic areas? Are there socio economic groups who
            experience
            > > higher numbers?
            >
            > While we know ASDs are diagnosed at a much higher rate in males
            (1:3
            > to 1:7), there is not a clear ethnic bias. Rumors to the contrary,
            > autism does exist in groups that do not get vaccines, do not live
            in
            > cities, do not eat commercial crops, etc. (There was
            a "journalist"
            > who reported there was no autism among the Amish -- he didn't
            bother
            > to find out they don't get medical diagnoses and don't file for
            social
            > services. Once a study was done, we also found seizure disorders,
            > retardation, and everything else that afflicts humans.)
            >
            > The "rich" and those best educated are most likely to have
            children
            > diagnosed with autism. Again, this goes to the availability of
            > resources and not an actual increase in incidence.
            >
            > The "autism epidemic" is about awareness, most likely. In
            Minnesota, I
            > have charted the increase in "autism" against a marked decrease in
            > "retardation" and the charts are precisely related. As autism
            > diagnoses increased, retardation declined. It's all about
            words....
            > which is very in tune with phenomenology and words leading to
            > experiences.
            >
            > > I think CSW probably knows where I am headed with this and He may
            > > chastise me for even thinking autism is a genetic response to
            general
            > > overcrowding of the human species.
            >
            > If anything, I wonder about the risks implicit in a group that is
            just
            > two or three steps removed from sociopathy. Thankfully, autism
            leads
            > to a "black and white" morality, and no one knows why. Instead
            of "I
            > can do anything, since you don't exist," the autistic mind seems
            to
            > insist upon rigid adherence to rules and order. These rules are
            not
            > the same as laws, so our move is to make ASD students understand
            there
            > are illogical rules they must follow. Okay... this isn't much
            better
            > if we look at what fascism would do with perfect law-abiding
            > individuals. "I was just following the law" is not much better
            than
            > sociopathy in some cases.
            >
            > Trying to teach social awareness to ASD students has led to a
            number
            > of books on the topic. There is a scale we use, too. The teaching
            > includes "A '5' is illegal." You end up hoping the ASD student
            > memorizes enough rules to stay out of trouble. Their B&W morality
            > would be a good thing, if it didn't lead to legal conflicts.
            >
            > - C. S. Wyatt
            > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
            all
            > that I shall be.
            > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
            > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
            >CSW, Those numbers are staggering, if one in three males are
            affected we are looking at a world shattering event. A wounded
            soldied is considered much more valuable to an adversarys victory
            than a clean KIA. If you are talking about a 1/3 walking wounded
            rate the casualties will bring us down.
            Since your most affective reply I have looked at some other theories
            about the pathogenisis of the syndrome. Some are looking for some
            trigger mechanisms that set off a predisposing genetic proclivity.
            Much like carcinogenic agents in malignant disease ,a chemical agent,
            virus, bacterium or prion might turn on a genetic sequence bringing
            on the symptoms of the disorder. Very little has been found.
            it seems we must try to identify the specific genes involved.
            Developing a test, especially in utero, leads to moral and
            political debates.
            Before we start that grueling process we need know much more adout
            all of this and such science runs its slow , particular course. As in
            the case of homosexuality it has taken half a century to field a
            research group given authority to even study the situation. If your
            numbers hold true the dissociation of the present population will
            force a quicker, more fully funded research effort.
            Those like yourself seem most potent in slowing the progress of
            a "us' and "them mentality that solves nothing. Bill
          • Joe Mele
            Just to clarify - Autistics celebrate autistic pride day on June 18. Autism world day is a concept developed and supported by curbies like autism speaks that
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 8 7:30 AM
              Just to clarify - Autistics celebrate autistic pride day on June 18. Autism
              world day is a concept developed and supported by curbies like autism speaks
              that seek to wipe autistics from the face of the earth. Autistic genocide
              is real issue.

              "Nothing about us without us!"
              theasman.blogspot.com

              On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:54 PM, mary.jo11 <ophiuchus@...> wrote:

              > Since it's World Autism Day, I'm wondering about these unique minds
              > which are challenging science and impacting families/communities. How
              > does the concept of philosophical phenomenology apply? I can't even
              > imagine all the ethical implications as this highly "afflicted"
              > generation comes of age. Hopefully our own C.S. Wyatt will share his
              > doctoral thesis when appropriate.
              >
              > Mary
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Exist List Moderator
              ... I do tire of people asking if I want to be cured or made whole based on any physical / neurological conditions I might have. No, I happen to think my
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 8 9:33 AM
                On Apr 08, 2008, at 9:30, Joe Mele wrote:
                > Just to clarify - Autistics celebrate autistic pride day on June 18.
                > Autism
                > world day is a concept developed and supported by curbies like
                > autism speaks
                > that seek to wipe autistics from the face of the earth. Autistic
                > genocide
                > is real issue.


                I do tire of people asking if I want to be "cured" or "made whole"
                based on any physical / neurological conditions I might have. No, I
                happen to think my abilities with computer code (ComputerWorld has
                covered this aspect of autism since the early 1990s), database design,
                and pattern recognition are unique skills.

                Giving parents genetic screening tools, as is mandated in Minnesota,
                is a way to eliminate the "unfit" before they are born and become an
                expense. The new "eugenics" movement is to screen ahead, tell parents,
                "Oh, there's a 70% chance of condition x," and encourage termination.

                Minnesota now screens for more than 50 conditions. Our state is
                considering "single payer" health care, with "incentives" to reduce
                costs. In the UK, one incentive from the NHS is to pay parents to
                terminate -- in the name of the common good, of course.

                The Government, we're here to help. Assuming you are not flawed, of
                course.

                - C. S. Wyatt
                I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
                that I shall be.
                http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
              • Susan Schnelbach
                I don t think he meant 1 in 3 to 1 in 7 males is autistic. I believe he meant that for every 1 female diagnosed with as autistic there are 3 to 7 males
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 11 8:39 PM
                  I don't think he meant 1 in 3 to 1 in 7 males is autistic. I believe
                  he meant that for every 1 female diagnosed with as autistic there are
                  3 to 7 males diagnosed.

                  - Susan

                  On Apr 4, 2008, at 9:26 AM, bhvwd wrote:

                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
                  > <existlist1@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On Apr 03, 2008, at 9:49, bhvwd wrote:
                  > > > I am beginning to have some very disturbing thoughts about the
                  > malady
                  > > > but the numbers become most important in planning any response
                  > to the
                  > > > phenominon. Is it equally spread over ethnic groups, races,
                  > religions
                  > > > and geographic areas? Are there socio economic groups who
                  > experience
                  > > > higher numbers?
                  > >
                  > > While we know ASDs are diagnosed at a much higher rate in males
                  > (1:3
                  > > to 1:7), there is not a clear ethnic bias. Rumors to the contrary,
                  > > autism does exist in groups that do not get vaccines, do not live
                  > in
                  > > cities, do not eat commercial crops, etc. (There was
                  > a "journalist"
                  > > who reported there was no autism among the Amish -- he didn't
                  > bother
                  > > to find out they don't get medical diagnoses and don't file for
                  > social
                  > > services. Once a study was done, we also found seizure disorders,
                  > > retardation, and everything else that afflicts humans.)
                  > >
                  > > The "rich" and those best educated are most likely to have
                  > children
                  > > diagnosed with autism. Again, this goes to the availability of
                  > > resources and not an actual increase in incidence.
                  > >
                  > > The "autism epidemic" is about awareness, most likely. In
                  > Minnesota, I
                  > > have charted the increase in "autism" against a marked decrease in
                  > > "retardation" and the charts are precisely related. As autism
                  > > diagnoses increased, retardation declined. It's all about
                  > words....
                  > > which is very in tune with phenomenology and words leading to
                  > > experiences.
                  > >
                  > > > I think CSW probably knows where I am headed with this and He may
                  > > > chastise me for even thinking autism is a genetic response to
                  > general
                  > > > overcrowding of the human species.
                  > >
                  > > If anything, I wonder about the risks implicit in a group that is
                  > just
                  > > two or three steps removed from sociopathy. Thankfully, autism
                  > leads
                  > > to a "black and white" morality, and no one knows why. Instead
                  > of "I
                  > > can do anything, since you don't exist," the autistic mind seems
                  > to
                  > > insist upon rigid adherence to rules and order. These rules are
                  > not
                  > > the same as laws, so our move is to make ASD students understand
                  > there
                  > > are illogical rules they must follow. Okay... this isn't much
                  > better
                  > > if we look at what fascism would do with perfect law-abiding
                  > > individuals. "I was just following the law" is not much better
                  > than
                  > > sociopathy in some cases.
                  > >
                  > > Trying to teach social awareness to ASD students has led to a
                  > number
                  > > of books on the topic. There is a scale we use, too. The teaching
                  > > includes "A '5' is illegal." You end up hoping the ASD student
                  > > memorizes enough rules to stay out of trouble. Their B&W morality
                  > > would be a good thing, if it didn't lead to legal conflicts.
                  > >
                  > > - C. S. Wyatt
                  > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
                  > all
                  > > that I shall be.
                  > > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                  > > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                  > >CSW, Those numbers are staggering, if one in three males are
                  > affected we are looking at a world shattering event. A wounded
                  > soldied is considered much more valuable to an adversarys victory
                  > than a clean KIA. If you are talking about a 1/3 walking wounded
                  > rate the casualties will bring us down.
                  > Since your most affective reply I have looked at some other theories
                  > about the pathogenisis of the syndrome. Some are looking for some
                  > trigger mechanisms that set off a predisposing genetic proclivity.
                  > Much like carcinogenic agents in malignant disease ,a chemical agent,
                  > virus, bacterium or prion might turn on a genetic sequence bringing
                  > on the symptoms of the disorder. Very little has been found.
                  > it seems we must try to identify the specific genes involved.
                  > Developing a test, especially in utero, leads to moral and
                  > political debates.
                  > Before we start that grueling process we need know much more adout
                  > all of this and such science runs its slow , particular course. As in
                  > the case of homosexuality it has taken half a century to field a
                  > research group given authority to even study the situation. If your
                  > numbers hold true the dissociation of the present population will
                  > force a quicker, more fully funded research effort.
                  > Those like yourself seem most potent in slowing the progress of
                  > a "us' and "them mentality that solves nothing. Bill
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Exist List Moderator
                  ... First, as Susan correctly clarified, I meant that for every female diagnosed, three to seven males are, depending on the state or country. Part of the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 12 11:12 AM
                    On Apr 04, 2008, at 9:26, bhvwd wrote:
                    > Before we start that grueling process we need know much more adout
                    > all of this and such science runs its slow , particular course.


                    First, as Susan correctly clarified, I meant that for every female
                    diagnosed, three to seven males are, depending on the state or
                    country. Part of the problem is that autism is a descriptive term: it
                    might be describing any of several underlying conditions. Every region
                    seems to have its own definition of what is an "autistic" personality.

                    As for science...

                    Indeed, science is slow and makes mistakes along the way. We test and
                    retest theories. Even once established as the accepted theory,
                    scientific "knowledge" can be challenged. Witness how well Newton and
                    Einstein held up, but there are "flaws" in even their great works.

                    It is hard to explain science to people. No few disciplines are based
                    on the notion of being wrong over time. A good scientist doesn't mind
                    being proved wrong, assuming he or she can develop yet another, better
                    theory. This is what people don't get about science: nothing is
                    certain, we just assume we are slightly closer to the truth with each
                    little piece of data.


                    - C. S. Wyatt
                    I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
                    that I shall be.
                    http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                    http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                  • bhvwd
                    ... it ... region ... personality. ... and ... and ... based ... mind ... better ... each ... very high as one in three males would be catastrophic. I now
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 12 12:38 PM
                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
                      <existlist1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Apr 04, 2008, at 9:26, bhvwd wrote:
                      > > Before we start that grueling process we need know much more adout
                      > > all of this and such science runs its slow , particular course.
                      >
                      >
                      > First, as Susan correctly clarified, I meant that for every female
                      > diagnosed, three to seven males are, depending on the state or
                      > country. Part of the problem is that autism is a descriptive term:
                      it
                      > might be describing any of several underlying conditions. Every
                      region
                      > seems to have its own definition of what is an "autistic"
                      personality.
                      >
                      > As for science...
                      >
                      > Indeed, science is slow and makes mistakes along the way. We test
                      and
                      > retest theories. Even once established as the accepted theory,
                      > scientific "knowledge" can be challenged. Witness how well Newton
                      and
                      > Einstein held up, but there are "flaws" in even their great works.
                      >
                      > It is hard to explain science to people. No few disciplines are
                      based
                      > on the notion of being wrong over time. A good scientist doesn't
                      mind
                      > being proved wrong, assuming he or she can develop yet another,
                      better
                      > theory. This is what people don't get about science: nothing is
                      > certain, we just assume we are slightly closer to the truth with
                      each
                      > little piece of data.
                      > CSW, Yhank you for the clarification , the stronger numbers seemed
                      very high as one in three males would be catastrophic. I now
                      understsnd why you cannot reliably give a number of cases per
                      hundred. What a half assed malady such that we cant even get it
                      named. Most of the writers on this list show some signs or simptoms
                      of autism, but I find it interesting to chase down the rabbit hole.
                      Are existentialists genetically prone to autism? That is unanswerable
                      but not unthinkable. It may even still be legal to think such things
                      and so I do it. Bill
                      >
                      > - C. S. Wyatt
                      > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
                      all
                      > that I shall be.
                      > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                      > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                      >
                    • Joe Mele
                      Bill The world would be a better place if everyone was autistic. Autistics mostly have normal to above intelligence but a higher number of mentally retard
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 12 9:11 PM
                        Bill

                        The world would be a better place if everyone was autistic. Autistics
                        mostly have normal to above intelligence but a higher number of mentally
                        retard than the general population. Autistics are not born liars.



                        On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 3:38 PM, bhvwd <v.valleywestdental@...> wrote:

                        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com <existlist%40yahoogroups.com>, Exist
                        > List Moderator
                        > <existlist1@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On Apr 04, 2008, at 9:26, bhvwd wrote:
                        > > > Before we start that grueling process we need know much more adout
                        > > > all of this and such science runs its slow , particular course.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > First, as Susan correctly clarified, I meant that for every female
                        > > diagnosed, three to seven males are, depending on the state or
                        > > country. Part of the problem is that autism is a descriptive term:
                        > it
                        > > might be describing any of several underlying conditions. Every
                        > region
                        > > seems to have its own definition of what is an "autistic"
                        > personality.
                        > >
                        > > As for science...
                        > >
                        > > Indeed, science is slow and makes mistakes along the way. We test
                        > and
                        > > retest theories. Even once established as the accepted theory,
                        > > scientific "knowledge" can be challenged. Witness how well Newton
                        > and
                        > > Einstein held up, but there are "flaws" in even their great works.
                        > >
                        > > It is hard to explain science to people. No few disciplines are
                        > based
                        > > on the notion of being wrong over time. A good scientist doesn't
                        > mind
                        > > being proved wrong, assuming he or she can develop yet another,
                        > better
                        > > theory. This is what people don't get about science: nothing is
                        > > certain, we just assume we are slightly closer to the truth with
                        > each
                        > > little piece of data.
                        > > CSW, Yhank you for the clarification , the stronger numbers seemed
                        > very high as one in three males would be catastrophic. I now
                        > understsnd why you cannot reliably give a number of cases per
                        > hundred. What a half assed malady such that we cant even get it
                        > named. Most of the writers on this list show some signs or simptoms
                        > of autism, but I find it interesting to chase down the rabbit hole.
                        > Are existentialists genetically prone to autism? That is unanswerable
                        > but not unthinkable. It may even still be legal to think such things
                        > and so I do it. Bill
                        > >
                        > > - C. S. Wyatt
                        > > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
                        > all
                        > > that I shall be.
                        > > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                        > > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • eupraxis@aol.com
                        ... What in the world! Okay, I get it. Autistic people are ... people too. However, let s not get maudlin about it. Wil ************** It s Tax Time! Get tips,
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 13 6:29 AM
                          In a message dated 4/12/08 11:12:07 PM, joemele@... writes:
                          > The world would be a better place if everyone was autistic.
                          >
                          What in the world!

                          Okay, I get it. Autistic people are ... people too. However, let's not get
                          maudlin about it.

                          Wil


                          **************
                          It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money &
                          Finance.
                          (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Exist List Moderator
                          ... I have addressed this issue with teachers and professors who are not prepared for the blunt honesty of the HFA/AS students they encounter. The instructors
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 14 5:30 PM
                            On Apr 12, 2008, at 23:11, Joe Mele wrote:
                            > Bill
                            >
                            > The world would be a better place if everyone was autistic. Autistics
                            > mostly have normal to above intelligence but a higher number of
                            > mentally
                            > retard than the general population. Autistics are not born liars.


                            I have addressed this issue with teachers and professors who are not
                            prepared for the blunt honesty of the HFA/AS students they encounter.
                            The instructors think the students are being sarcastic or lying, based
                            on tone, when these students cannot generally lie without either a
                            terrible "give" or physical discomfort.

                            People are uncomfortable with the truth.

                            - C. S. Wyatt
                            I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
                            that I shall be.
                            http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                            http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
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