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Re: [existlist] Re: god exists //// The Convenience Factor :)

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  • eupraxis@aol.com
    Dear yeoman , From an Existentialist point of view [can I say that?], what we strive for is a complete understanding of the moment. To have the answer to
    Message 1 of 31 , Jan 2, 2008
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      Dear "yeoman",

      "From an Existentialist point of view [can I say that?], what we strive
      for is a complete understanding of the moment. To have the answer to
      every question about our position, role, meaning, etc.. I think that is
      the reason and motivation for exploration of outer space. We have to
      pull back the curtain of mystery, so we can know who we are. Which in
      itself is interesting, since it was God who pulled the curtain in the
      first place."

      Response: That is a nice, rationalistically sounding point of view, but
      it becomes confusing with your last line. Are you actually a believer,
      or are you not? You seem to vacillate on the issue. Am I wrong? I ask
      this not just to provoke you, but also because you seem to attach so
      much value to ephemeral moments where the notion of god pops up, as if
      these were in some way proofs for either god or 'faith'. [end]

      from next post:

      "I think that religion is inherent to the human psyche. It provides
      motivation, meaning, purpose and morality for the average person. Not
      everyone is a philosopher or even has the time or capability to be one."

      Response: I don't think that religion provides any of those things for
      the average person at all, and I live in the deep South. So, you think
      that "religion is inherent to the human psyche", but those truly
      essential factors like "motivation, meaning, purpose and morality" are
      derived from it. I would say that you have it backwards. See Heidegger
      on the subject, unless you have neither the time or capability. I mean,
      this is an "Existentialist" list. "Being and Time", on the
      "existentialia" (or basic categories of Dasein).

      Yes, not everyone is a philosopher, but folks in philosophical lists
      such as this, at least ideally, usually are or have had the time and
      capability to be conversant on the subject. You go on and on about the
      past and the books that enriched it. No philosophy in the mix? What in
      the world were you doing?

      But it is not too late. Spinoza, Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Marx,
      Nietzsche, Bergson, Husserl, Heidegger, Sartre, Merleau-Ponty, etc.
      What do you have better to do than to ponder questions of "position,
      role, meaning"? [end]

      "Pascal's wager is bogus because it predefines a god who is in
      contradiction with the premise that it is all-loving. There is no
      reason to suppose [other than in mind of Pascal] that a god exists who
      would automatically send a person to hell simply for not believing in
      him."

      Response: Pascal's Wager is a scandal of reasoning 1) because it
      displays a false kind of faith (as I said earlier, it is akin to what
      is called in Catholicism "attrition", a false conversion); and 2)
      because it displays a false kind of rationality. It thus fails on both
      sides of the issue. [end]

      Wil


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    • eduard at home
      ... aija --- guess when the hammer and anvil part was thought up? metal smithing and with it the metal ages and for that matter warrior societies start up,
      Message 31 of 31 , Jan 8, 2008
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        eduard:
        > The role of the brain is to seek after answers. Why is
        > there thunder?? Ancient peoples came to the conclusion that it is
        > some god hammering on an anvil.

        aija ---
        guess when the hammer and anvil part was thought up? metal smithing and
        with it the metal ages and for that matter warrior societies start up,
        when? - isn't it as early as 6000 B.C. like in the highlands of ancient
        Iran and spreading throughout the Middle East, Egypt, the Caucasus etc.
        smithing gods, as far as i know - all male, become powerful as well.:)

        smithing adds another model of creation via technology, this time
        exclusively male. in the earlier technologies of clay pottery and
        weaving the earliest creators often seem to be female. in the Baltic in
        one of the numerous alternative traditions a smith-god hammers out a
        gold sun. it is known along with the dominant creation models, which
        seem to be parthenogenetic/ from the mother, most obviously with the
        water bird hatching the cosmic egg, but the weaving goddesses are also
        creators.

        enjoy pic of Norwegian smith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_(metalwork)

        but not all smithing gods throughout the world are also thunder gods,
        though there are thunder gods all over the world making noise in
        different ways. there are native American thunder-birds and even some
        thunder goddesses (Yoruba). the Baltic Thunder god's daughters seem to
        deal with rain not thunder while sons are thunderers).

        in any case, at some point, within these traditions some people
        recognized myths to be more art and poetry than science.:) science
        paradigms tends to get replaced and it is updated continuously more than
        art, which tends to recycle or reinvent itself.

        eduard ---
        My point was simply to show that the brain strives for an answer.
        And if it cannot find an immediate answer, it will invent one. Which I
        believe is the origin of religion.

        Yes, not all noises are attributed to gods, but some gods are
        invented to give explanation for noise. Just as gods are invented to
        explain how that big fiery ball manages to get across the sky during the
        day.

        It is often said that gods are supernatural. I would suggest that
        none of them are supernatural. They are all inventions based upon very
        natural experience. God himself is in large part a reflection of ourselves
        and of our fathers. Well ... perhaps I should revise that to say ... within
        the Semitic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In the Indian
        Gita the point is made that Krishna cannot be described or even seen.


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