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Re: BUBER, SARTRE, CAMUS, HEIDEGGER

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  • m00dy58
    What ever could have been the question? Kaufman did promote other much worthier. although he seemed to favor the theists. Yes? m ... holier than thou kind of
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
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      What ever could have been the question? Kaufman did promote other much
      worthier. although he seemed to favor the theists. Yes?

      m

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote: He had had a
      holier than thou kind of fame after Walter Kaufmann 'rediscovered'
      him, and he was (kind of) promoted as an answer to Heidegger.

      Wil
    • eupraxis@aol.com
      Well, there was an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
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        Well, there was an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was reexamining antisemitism in his later work. Besides Husserl himself, who was actually a practicing Lutheran, and before Levinas was made available to a larger audience, the "I & Thou" approach of Buber was the only game in town in that specific sub-genre, at least here in the USA.

        Kaufmann had always taken a lot of heat for his Nietzsche texts, and ... well, there you have it.

        Wil








        -----Original Message-----
        From: m00dy58 <m00dy58@...>
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 3:26 pm
        Subject: [existlist] Re: BUBER, SARTRE, CAMUS, HEIDEGGER

























        What ever could have been the question? Kaufman did promote other much

        worthier. although he seemed to favor the theists. Yes?



        m



        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote: He had had a

        holier than thou kind of fame after Walter Kaufmann 'rediscovered'

        him, and he was (kind of) promoted as an answer to Heidegger.



        Wil





















        ________________________________________________________________________
        Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • louise
        ... Have to admit that, when I posted my reply to your original message, at midnight UK time, was rather sleepy. What was intended simply as spontaneous,
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "rb" <sportsfan007us@...> wrote:
          >
          > everyone,
          >
          > Thanks for the welcome.
          >
          > Buber (qua a neo-Kantian), says that when
          > we use our association with
          > another person mainly for
          > our own ends/benefit,
          > we are using them as an object.
          >
          > Dunno how you mean that
          > the meaning of life is like a football pitch,
          > but would love to learn the details.

          Have to admit that, when I posted my reply to your original message,
          at midnight UK time, was rather sleepy. What was intended simply as
          spontaneous, intuitive contribution looks somewhat enigmatic now.
          Anyway, there was in the first place an association with Albert
          Camus, whom I understand to have been a football fan in his lifetime,
          a fact advertised on T-shirts, I seem to recall. Further to this, my
          basic Anglo-Saxon empirical approach to existential thought, would
          emphasise the sort of practical test of theory that is reflected in
          unmistakeable fashion by players of this very English, very working-
          class game, whether they be amateur or professional. It provides a
          test of character and conmmitment under the gaze of an impartial
          arbiter (or, these days, one might say, four arbiters, if one lists
          referee, two line assistants and 'fourth official'), whilst
          impassioned supporters seek to urge on their team, or, sadly enough,
          provoke the opposition to failure. In the more extreme cases, where
          vicious personal insults, coin-throwing, or tribal abuse of some form
          are intended (perhaps) to trigger a reaction which will remove the
          individual from the field of play, it is almost an exercise in mind-
          control. Chemicals flood the brain, team-mates know their
          colleagues' weaknesses, notorious club rivalries raise the stakes,
          and so on. So fairly meandering thoughts, not much related to the
          reading of philosophical texts. My remark was almost
          somnambulistically ironic, so tired have I become of trying to make
          headway with reference to arguing from what one might call some of
          the classic texts of existential thought, applied in all due
          strenuousness to the challenges of contemporary living. L.

          >
          > Best,
          > rb
          >
          >
          >
          > both --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@>
          wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi, and welcome to the list. All sports fans welcome, of course,
          > > within reason, and prejudice is naturally to be expected.
          Myself, I
          > > see the entire meaning of life exemplified on the football
          pitch.
          > > Copious interpretation is, however, required. I shall
          intersperse
          > > comments within your text, below. Louise
          > >
          > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "sportsfan007us"
          > > <sportsfan007us@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi,
          > > >
          > > > I have read *some* of Buber, Sartre, Camus, and Heidegger.
          > > >
          > > > I'm specifically interested in how they apply to day-to-day
          human
          > > > relations.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Sartre, of course, has been known at times for saying
          > > > that the other person (with whom I am having a relationship)
          > > > is my enemy because they want to reduce me to a thing.
          > > >
          > > > They want have the *feeling* (which differs from an objective
          > > > range of predictability) that they can predict what
          > > > I will do and who I am.
          > > > I am an object, capable of change within limited parameters;
          > > > I am not a subject capable of changing beyond predictability.
          > > >
          > > > It seems to me that relationship doesn't work too well when
          one/both
          > > > relates tothe other as an object.
          > >
          > > It amazes me, that anyone would consider such a distorted
          perception
          > > able to yield anything worth the name of 'relationship'. How
          might a
          > > human being, except in grammatical sense, be meaningfully an
          object?
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Buber, on the other hand, says that it *is* possible to
          > > > relate to another as a fellow subject.
          > > > In fact, we are not fully existing to each other if
          > > > we are not in a dialogue where we regard ourselves as
          > > > subject and another subject.
          > > >
          > >
          > > I find Buber's statements as you give them here to be true,
          clear,
          > > simple, in other words, beautiful.
          > >
          > > > Camus (I think of him as an absurdist, not a strict
          existialist)
          > > would
          > > > not be on Sartre's side and be more on Buber's side. He wouldn't
          > > > define a relationship so specifically on dialog, but he would,
          as
          > > > Buber, see relating to fellow-subject as possible and
          dignifying our
          > > > existence.
          > > >
          > >
          > > Possibly Camus accordingly widens the range of description for
          human
          > > relationship, since undoubtedly one may find great enrichment,
          for
          > > instance, in relating to the works of an artist now dead. The
          > > relationship is active and present on one side, bequeathed from a
          > > living history, on the other. At least, the lived history
          bestows
          > > its gift again, when a reader/beholder/listener of the artist's
          work
          > > brings it to contemporary consciousness.
          > >
          > > > In either case, it seems to me that relationship might work
          well if
          > > I
          > > > regard the other as a fellow-subject because we are both
          capable of
          > > > change beyond predictability; in fact, our very relationship is
          > > > capable of change beyond predictability;
          > > >
          > >
          > > This seems quite true.
          > >
          > > >
          > > > Heidegger, I am *guessing*, is more on the side of saying
          > > > we are existing (rather than "we exist") regardless of the
          other.
          > > > There's something here on the side that I fully exist without
          > > > regardless of the other.
          > > >
          > > > Again, it seems to me that relationship doesn't work too well
          when
          > > > one/both relates to the other as an object.
          > > >
          > >
          > > My own engagements with Heidegger's thought are ongoing and
          > > rudimentary. He has never, though, left me with the impression
          that
          > > such notional disregard of the other amounts to an
          objectification.
          > >
          > >
          > > >
          > > > Please note that I'm inviting comments to how all this applies
          > > > to everyday relating: to relating you and I relating better.
          > > > I hope not to get into a detailed tangent about ontological
          systems
          > > > (although I am guilty of speaking of ontology in a way I felt
          > > > comfortable :-( (not necessarily in a way that was relevant).
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Comments?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • m00dy58
          Ah, yes, how duh of me. Anti-Semitism was met with Zionism which was met with more resistance...Fascism creeps back in...and on and on it goes...Left Bank,
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 5, 2007
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            Ah, yes, how duh of me. Anti-Semitism was met with Zionism which was
            met with more resistance...Fascism creeps back in...and on and on it
            goes...Left Bank, West Bank, blood bank...

            m

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote: Well, there was
            an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated
            itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was
            reexamining antisemitism in his later work. Besides Husserl himself,
            who was actually a practicing Lutheran, and before Levinas was made
            available to a larger audience, the "I & Thou" approach of Buber was
            the only game in town in that specific sub-genre, at least here in
            the USA.

            Kaufmann had always taken a lot of heat for his Nietzsche texts,
            and ... well, there you have it.

            Wil
          • eupraxis@aol.com
            Merlin was reputed to have said, The tragedy of Man is that he forgets. I would put it otherwise: The tragedy of people is that they couldn t care less about
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 5, 2007
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              Merlin was reputed to have said, The tragedy of Man is that he forgets. I would put it otherwise: The tragedy of people is that they couldn't care less about other people.

              Wil















              -----Original Message-----

              From: m00dy58 <m00dy58@...>

              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

              Sent: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 9:27 am

              Subject: [existlist] Re: BUBER, SARTRE, CAMUS, HEIDEGGER
































              Ah, yes, how duh of me. Anti-Semitism was met with Zionism which was


              met with more resistance...Fascism creeps back in...and on and on it


              goes...Left Bank, West Bank, blood bank...





              m





              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote: Well, there was


              an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated


              itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was


              reexamining antisemitism in his later work. Besides Husserl himself,


              who was actually a practicing Lutheran, and before Levinas was made


              available to a larger audience, the "I & Thou" approach of Buber was


              the only game in town in that specific sub-genre, at least here in


              the USA.





              Kaufmann had always taken a lot of heat for his Nietzsche texts,


              and ... well, there you have it.





              Wil


























              ________________________________________________________________________
              Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Herman B. Triplegood
              I remember that. For it is the doom of men that they forget. What you say is also true. The lack of compassion, Schopenhauer calls it loving kindness,
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 6, 2007
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                I remember that. "For it is the doom of men that they forget." What
                you say is also true. The lack of compassion, Schopenhauer calls it
                loving kindness, certainly is also a tragedy.

                Hb3g

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Merlin was reputed to have said, The tragedy of Man is that he
                forgets. I would put it otherwise: The tragedy of people is that they
                couldn't care less about other people.
                >
                > Wil
                >
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                >
                >
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                >
                >
                >
                >
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                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                >
                > From: m00dy58 <m00dy58@...>
                >
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Sent: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 9:27 am
                >
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: BUBER, SARTRE, CAMUS, HEIDEGGER
                >
                >
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                >
                > Ah, yes, how duh of me. Anti-Semitism was met with Zionism which
                was
                >
                >
                > met with more resistance...Fascism creeps back in...and on and on
                it
                >
                >
                > goes...Left Bank, West Bank, blood bank...
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > m
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote: Well, there was
                >
                >
                > an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated
                >
                >
                > itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was
                >
                >
                > reexamining antisemitism in his later work. Besides Husserl
                himself,
                >
                >
                > who was actually a practicing Lutheran, and before Levinas was made
                >
                >
                > available to a larger audience, the "I & Thou" approach of Buber
                was
                >
                >
                > the only game in town in that specific sub-genre, at least here in
                >
                >
                > the USA.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Kaufmann had always taken a lot of heat for his Nietzsche texts,
                >
                >
                > and ... well, there you have it.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Wil
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ______________________________________________________________________
                __
                > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
                Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • eupraxis@aol.com
                Yes, that s it. Thanks. Wil ... ************************************** See what s new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 6, 2007
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                  Yes, that's it. Thanks.
                  Wil

                  In a message dated 10/6/07 4:34:00 AM, hb3g@... writes:


                  > I remember that. "For it is the doom of men that they forget." What
                  > you say is also true. The lack of compassion, Schopenhauer calls it
                  > loving kindness, certainly is also a tragedy.
                  >
                  > Hb3g
                  >
                  >
                  >




                  **************************************
                  See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jimstuart46
                  Wil: The tragedy of people is that they couldn t care less about other people. Jim: I ve been thinking about this for a day or so, and I think you are exactly
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 6, 2007
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                    Wil: The tragedy of people is that they couldn't care less about other
                    people.

                    Jim: I've been thinking about this for a day or so, and I think you
                    are exactly right. This is the tragedy of human existence.

                    I see philosophy as the discipline or method for individuals to follow
                    in order to transform themselves into individuals who do care about
                    other people.

                    Many of the ancient Greeks and Romans viewed philosophical texts
                    as "spiritual exercises" to repeat and focus on in an attempt to
                    transform themselves into human beings with a better, more
                    appropriate, attitude to existence.

                    Pierre Hadot's book "Philosophy as a Way of Life" draws out this
                    aspect of ancient philosophy. I thoroughly recommend Hadot's book.
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