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Re: [existlist] Re: BUBER, SARTRE, CAMUS, HEIDEGGER

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  • eupraxis@aol.com
    He had had a holier than thou kind of fame after Walter Kaufmann rediscovered him, and he was (kind of) promoted as an answer to Heidegger. Wil ... From:
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
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      He had had a holier than thou kind of fame after Walter Kaufmann 'rediscovered' him, and he was (kind of) promoted as an answer to Heidegger.

      Wil




      -----Original Message-----
      From: m00dy58 <m00dy58@...>
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 3:01 pm
      Subject: [existlist] Re: BUBER, SARTRE, CAMUS, HEIDEGGER

























      Yeah, and so why is he considered an existentialist again? These

      mystics and utopians should be disregarded, in my opinion.



      m



      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote: Buber was not

      particularly fond of Palestinians, however, and advocated some

      less than kind practices for the latter. He was a racist, in fact.

      Otherwise, he was a sanctimonious sack of ****. But other than that....



      Wil





















      ________________________________________________________________________
      Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • m00dy58
      What ever could have been the question? Kaufman did promote other much worthier. although he seemed to favor the theists. Yes? m ... holier than thou kind of
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
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        What ever could have been the question? Kaufman did promote other much
        worthier. although he seemed to favor the theists. Yes?

        m

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote: He had had a
        holier than thou kind of fame after Walter Kaufmann 'rediscovered'
        him, and he was (kind of) promoted as an answer to Heidegger.

        Wil
      • eupraxis@aol.com
        Well, there was an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
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          Well, there was an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was reexamining antisemitism in his later work. Besides Husserl himself, who was actually a practicing Lutheran, and before Levinas was made available to a larger audience, the "I & Thou" approach of Buber was the only game in town in that specific sub-genre, at least here in the USA.

          Kaufmann had always taken a lot of heat for his Nietzsche texts, and ... well, there you have it.

          Wil








          -----Original Message-----
          From: m00dy58 <m00dy58@...>
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 3:26 pm
          Subject: [existlist] Re: BUBER, SARTRE, CAMUS, HEIDEGGER

























          What ever could have been the question? Kaufman did promote other much

          worthier. although he seemed to favor the theists. Yes?



          m



          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote: He had had a

          holier than thou kind of fame after Walter Kaufmann 'rediscovered'

          him, and he was (kind of) promoted as an answer to Heidegger.



          Wil





















          ________________________________________________________________________
          Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • louise
          ... Have to admit that, when I posted my reply to your original message, at midnight UK time, was rather sleepy. What was intended simply as spontaneous,
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
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            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "rb" <sportsfan007us@...> wrote:
            >
            > everyone,
            >
            > Thanks for the welcome.
            >
            > Buber (qua a neo-Kantian), says that when
            > we use our association with
            > another person mainly for
            > our own ends/benefit,
            > we are using them as an object.
            >
            > Dunno how you mean that
            > the meaning of life is like a football pitch,
            > but would love to learn the details.

            Have to admit that, when I posted my reply to your original message,
            at midnight UK time, was rather sleepy. What was intended simply as
            spontaneous, intuitive contribution looks somewhat enigmatic now.
            Anyway, there was in the first place an association with Albert
            Camus, whom I understand to have been a football fan in his lifetime,
            a fact advertised on T-shirts, I seem to recall. Further to this, my
            basic Anglo-Saxon empirical approach to existential thought, would
            emphasise the sort of practical test of theory that is reflected in
            unmistakeable fashion by players of this very English, very working-
            class game, whether they be amateur or professional. It provides a
            test of character and conmmitment under the gaze of an impartial
            arbiter (or, these days, one might say, four arbiters, if one lists
            referee, two line assistants and 'fourth official'), whilst
            impassioned supporters seek to urge on their team, or, sadly enough,
            provoke the opposition to failure. In the more extreme cases, where
            vicious personal insults, coin-throwing, or tribal abuse of some form
            are intended (perhaps) to trigger a reaction which will remove the
            individual from the field of play, it is almost an exercise in mind-
            control. Chemicals flood the brain, team-mates know their
            colleagues' weaknesses, notorious club rivalries raise the stakes,
            and so on. So fairly meandering thoughts, not much related to the
            reading of philosophical texts. My remark was almost
            somnambulistically ironic, so tired have I become of trying to make
            headway with reference to arguing from what one might call some of
            the classic texts of existential thought, applied in all due
            strenuousness to the challenges of contemporary living. L.

            >
            > Best,
            > rb
            >
            >
            >
            > both --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@>
            wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi, and welcome to the list. All sports fans welcome, of course,
            > > within reason, and prejudice is naturally to be expected.
            Myself, I
            > > see the entire meaning of life exemplified on the football
            pitch.
            > > Copious interpretation is, however, required. I shall
            intersperse
            > > comments within your text, below. Louise
            > >
            > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "sportsfan007us"
            > > <sportsfan007us@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi,
            > > >
            > > > I have read *some* of Buber, Sartre, Camus, and Heidegger.
            > > >
            > > > I'm specifically interested in how they apply to day-to-day
            human
            > > > relations.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Sartre, of course, has been known at times for saying
            > > > that the other person (with whom I am having a relationship)
            > > > is my enemy because they want to reduce me to a thing.
            > > >
            > > > They want have the *feeling* (which differs from an objective
            > > > range of predictability) that they can predict what
            > > > I will do and who I am.
            > > > I am an object, capable of change within limited parameters;
            > > > I am not a subject capable of changing beyond predictability.
            > > >
            > > > It seems to me that relationship doesn't work too well when
            one/both
            > > > relates tothe other as an object.
            > >
            > > It amazes me, that anyone would consider such a distorted
            perception
            > > able to yield anything worth the name of 'relationship'. How
            might a
            > > human being, except in grammatical sense, be meaningfully an
            object?
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Buber, on the other hand, says that it *is* possible to
            > > > relate to another as a fellow subject.
            > > > In fact, we are not fully existing to each other if
            > > > we are not in a dialogue where we regard ourselves as
            > > > subject and another subject.
            > > >
            > >
            > > I find Buber's statements as you give them here to be true,
            clear,
            > > simple, in other words, beautiful.
            > >
            > > > Camus (I think of him as an absurdist, not a strict
            existialist)
            > > would
            > > > not be on Sartre's side and be more on Buber's side. He wouldn't
            > > > define a relationship so specifically on dialog, but he would,
            as
            > > > Buber, see relating to fellow-subject as possible and
            dignifying our
            > > > existence.
            > > >
            > >
            > > Possibly Camus accordingly widens the range of description for
            human
            > > relationship, since undoubtedly one may find great enrichment,
            for
            > > instance, in relating to the works of an artist now dead. The
            > > relationship is active and present on one side, bequeathed from a
            > > living history, on the other. At least, the lived history
            bestows
            > > its gift again, when a reader/beholder/listener of the artist's
            work
            > > brings it to contemporary consciousness.
            > >
            > > > In either case, it seems to me that relationship might work
            well if
            > > I
            > > > regard the other as a fellow-subject because we are both
            capable of
            > > > change beyond predictability; in fact, our very relationship is
            > > > capable of change beyond predictability;
            > > >
            > >
            > > This seems quite true.
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Heidegger, I am *guessing*, is more on the side of saying
            > > > we are existing (rather than "we exist") regardless of the
            other.
            > > > There's something here on the side that I fully exist without
            > > > regardless of the other.
            > > >
            > > > Again, it seems to me that relationship doesn't work too well
            when
            > > > one/both relates to the other as an object.
            > > >
            > >
            > > My own engagements with Heidegger's thought are ongoing and
            > > rudimentary. He has never, though, left me with the impression
            that
            > > such notional disregard of the other amounts to an
            objectification.
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Please note that I'm inviting comments to how all this applies
            > > > to everyday relating: to relating you and I relating better.
            > > > I hope not to get into a detailed tangent about ontological
            systems
            > > > (although I am guilty of speaking of ontology in a way I felt
            > > > comfortable :-( (not necessarily in a way that was relevant).
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Comments?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • m00dy58
            Ah, yes, how duh of me. Anti-Semitism was met with Zionism which was met with more resistance...Fascism creeps back in...and on and on it goes...Left Bank,
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 5, 2007
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              Ah, yes, how duh of me. Anti-Semitism was met with Zionism which was
              met with more resistance...Fascism creeps back in...and on and on it
              goes...Left Bank, West Bank, blood bank...

              m

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote: Well, there was
              an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated
              itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was
              reexamining antisemitism in his later work. Besides Husserl himself,
              who was actually a practicing Lutheran, and before Levinas was made
              available to a larger audience, the "I & Thou" approach of Buber was
              the only game in town in that specific sub-genre, at least here in
              the USA.

              Kaufmann had always taken a lot of heat for his Nietzsche texts,
              and ... well, there you have it.

              Wil
            • eupraxis@aol.com
              Merlin was reputed to have said, The tragedy of Man is that he forgets. I would put it otherwise: The tragedy of people is that they couldn t care less about
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 5, 2007
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                Merlin was reputed to have said, The tragedy of Man is that he forgets. I would put it otherwise: The tragedy of people is that they couldn't care less about other people.

                Wil















                -----Original Message-----

                From: m00dy58 <m00dy58@...>

                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com

                Sent: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 9:27 am

                Subject: [existlist] Re: BUBER, SARTRE, CAMUS, HEIDEGGER
































                Ah, yes, how duh of me. Anti-Semitism was met with Zionism which was


                met with more resistance...Fascism creeps back in...and on and on it


                goes...Left Bank, West Bank, blood bank...





                m





                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote: Well, there was


                an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated


                itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was


                reexamining antisemitism in his later work. Besides Husserl himself,


                who was actually a practicing Lutheran, and before Levinas was made


                available to a larger audience, the "I & Thou" approach of Buber was


                the only game in town in that specific sub-genre, at least here in


                the USA.





                Kaufmann had always taken a lot of heat for his Nietzsche texts,


                and ... well, there you have it.





                Wil


























                ________________________________________________________________________
                Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Herman B. Triplegood
                I remember that. For it is the doom of men that they forget. What you say is also true. The lack of compassion, Schopenhauer calls it loving kindness,
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 6, 2007
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                  I remember that. "For it is the doom of men that they forget." What
                  you say is also true. The lack of compassion, Schopenhauer calls it
                  loving kindness, certainly is also a tragedy.

                  Hb3g

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Merlin was reputed to have said, The tragedy of Man is that he
                  forgets. I would put it otherwise: The tragedy of people is that they
                  couldn't care less about other people.
                  >
                  > Wil
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  >
                  > From: m00dy58 <m00dy58@...>
                  >
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Sent: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 9:27 am
                  >
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: BUBER, SARTRE, CAMUS, HEIDEGGER
                  >
                  >
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                  > Ah, yes, how duh of me. Anti-Semitism was met with Zionism which
                  was
                  >
                  >
                  > met with more resistance...Fascism creeps back in...and on and on
                  it
                  >
                  >
                  > goes...Left Bank, West Bank, blood bank...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > m
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote: Well, there was
                  >
                  >
                  > an interest in Jewish philosophy as German philosophy resusuitated
                  >
                  >
                  > itself with the post-war interest in Heidegger, and also Sartre was
                  >
                  >
                  > reexamining antisemitism in his later work. Besides Husserl
                  himself,
                  >
                  >
                  > who was actually a practicing Lutheran, and before Levinas was made
                  >
                  >
                  > available to a larger audience, the "I & Thou" approach of Buber
                  was
                  >
                  >
                  > the only game in town in that specific sub-genre, at least here in
                  >
                  >
                  > the USA.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Kaufmann had always taken a lot of heat for his Nietzsche texts,
                  >
                  >
                  > and ... well, there you have it.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Wil
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  __
                  > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
                  Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • eupraxis@aol.com
                  Yes, that s it. Thanks. Wil ... ************************************** See what s new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 6, 2007
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                    Yes, that's it. Thanks.
                    Wil

                    In a message dated 10/6/07 4:34:00 AM, hb3g@... writes:


                    > I remember that. "For it is the doom of men that they forget." What
                    > you say is also true. The lack of compassion, Schopenhauer calls it
                    > loving kindness, certainly is also a tragedy.
                    >
                    > Hb3g
                    >
                    >
                    >




                    **************************************
                    See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jimstuart46
                    Wil: The tragedy of people is that they couldn t care less about other people. Jim: I ve been thinking about this for a day or so, and I think you are exactly
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 6, 2007
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                      Wil: The tragedy of people is that they couldn't care less about other
                      people.

                      Jim: I've been thinking about this for a day or so, and I think you
                      are exactly right. This is the tragedy of human existence.

                      I see philosophy as the discipline or method for individuals to follow
                      in order to transform themselves into individuals who do care about
                      other people.

                      Many of the ancient Greeks and Romans viewed philosophical texts
                      as "spiritual exercises" to repeat and focus on in an attempt to
                      transform themselves into human beings with a better, more
                      appropriate, attitude to existence.

                      Pierre Hadot's book "Philosophy as a Way of Life" draws out this
                      aspect of ancient philosophy. I thoroughly recommend Hadot's book.
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