Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Learned self destruction

Expand Messages
  • louise
    Hmm .. now what about that word, vendetta ?? Doesn t look particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter. Louise ... least ... develop ... decided losing
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 6, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
      particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.

      Louise
      ... spying out beams

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo" <maryjo.malo@...> wrote:
      >
      > I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks,
      > practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at
      least
      > the 18th century, even brought it with them into Appalachia.
      >
      > Eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
      >
      > Mary
      >
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
      > <existlist1@> wrote:
      >
      > Bill / et al...
      >
      > The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic
      > tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view "better")
      > notions of community we have developed, a direct result of permanent
      > settlements thanks for farming / domestication, tribes had to
      develop
      > more direct balances of power. In the northern areas of the Ottoman,
      > Greek justice merged with European tribal ways and we have our
      > current "Western" balance of power -- the lawyer! Seriously, our
      > balances between groups occur in a legal battleground (gamed by the
      > state, but that's another issue).
      >
      > Tribal people didn't have the need for permanent courts. Islamic
      > courts could be assembled quickly, followed a strict code mixing the
      > hadith and Koran, and vendetta was an accepted part of the justice
      > system. You killed one of our tribe... we'll kill two of yours. The
      > problem with this is clear: what if the first death was an
      > "accident"? Then, the next two become murder. Escalation occurs.
      >
      > There was a study of Arab cultures I read that concluded each side
      > always "overstates" and "over reacts" to a perceived wrong. This
      > would happen in our culture, too, but we seem to have
      decided "losing
      > on appeal" is about the worst fate in a case. Arabic nations are
      > working towards a similar approach -- but it will be unique to their
      > cultures and not a Western idea of justice.
      >
      > A friend from Egypt told me: if you wrong me, your family is
      > responsible and must also be held accountable. Your people committed
      > a crime when you did.
      >
      > Think about the philosophical implications. It is the "sins of the
      > father" being passed across, down, and sideways through a community.
      >
      > I'd rather say "you did this" and not hold everyone and everything
      > accountable. I know society contributes. I know what I do affects
      > others. But if you commit a crime, it should be you, the individual,
      > who pays a price -- not everyone from your "tribe" wronged me.
      >
      > - CSW
      >
    • Exist List Moderator
      ... It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic. Vindicta was Latin for
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 11, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        On Sep 06, 2007, at 5:11, louise wrote:

        > Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
        > particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.
        >

        It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is
        also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic.
        Vindicta was Latin for Blood Feud, the Arabic is ven taar/ al van
        thar. There is evidence the two emerged from a common root, but
        languages do not evolve neatly.

        In my last Spanish class (which I took two years ago again, so it's
        sort of fresh in my mind) there was an entire unit on Arabic words in
        Spanish. Some were definite (cotton = algodon) thanks to the "al"
        prefix. Others, starting with v, a, or t, are less obvious due to
        changes over time.

        Most would agree vendetta in current form is close to the Latin,
        definitely. That does not discount the parallel development of a
        word, but does show English took the Latin form as it evolved.

        Language is a virus.

        - C. S. Wyatt
        I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
        that I shall be.
        http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
        http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
      • louise
        ... I still feel that I know nothing with any certainty about the Italian word, vendetta . Latin, though, proves endlessly fascinating, both for itself, the
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 15, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
          <existlist1@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Sep 06, 2007, at 5:11, louise wrote:
          >
          > > Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
          > > particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.
          > >
          >
          > It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is
          > also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic.
          > Vindicta was Latin for Blood Feud, the Arabic is ven taar/ al van
          > thar. There is evidence the two emerged from a common root, but
          > languages do not evolve neatly.

          I still feel that I know nothing with any certainty about the Italian
          word, 'vendetta'. Latin, though, proves endlessly fascinating, both
          for itself, the particular wealth of such an ordered and elegant
          language, and in regard to its poetry. Returning to the "Aeneid"
          with much pleasure, these days. And so to consult the tome:

          vindico, -are, 1 conj.,
          to lay legal claim to (a thing), whether as one's property or for its
          restoration to a free condition; arrogate, appropriate;
          Meton., to restore (to a state of liberty); set free, deliver, save;
          avenge, revenge, punish.

          vindicta, -ae, f. (vindico)
          the staff or rod with which a slave was touched in the ceremony of
          manumission; a protection, defence.

          [Smith's Latin-English dictionary, 1864].


          >
          > In my last Spanish class (which I took two years ago again, so
          it's
          > sort of fresh in my mind) there was an entire unit on Arabic words
          in
          > Spanish. Some were definite (cotton = algodon) thanks to the "al"
          > prefix. Others, starting with v, a, or t, are less obvious due to
          > changes over time.
          >
          > Most would agree vendetta in current form is close to the Latin,
          > definitely. That does not discount the parallel development of a
          > word, but does show English took the Latin form as it evolved.
          >
          > Language is a virus.

          Weird stuff (the final statement). True, that my scepticism is that
          of an aesthete, with hardly any scientific or science-based technical
          training, beyond my school studies to the age of 16, yet the ancient
          philosophical traditions too have their claims, their questions. The
          religious philosophy to which Bill has alluded includes in my opinion
          the over-reaching habits of a science which wants to account for even
          the features of human subjectivity in a language that does not
          explain, but rather excludes the fullness of the phenomenon, closes
          down the scope of discussion. It will take me time, to make good on
          earlier promises. My faith in the contemporaneity of what Heidegger
          understood about Nietzsche's vision is undiminished. Truth is
          perspectival, and repeats its forms. I believe this involves the
          facts of race, that neglected study. Such a young, thwarted
          science. Deeming the two philosophers, for now, Germanic Dane,
          Germanic Saxon; for language too is important, mother-tongue, or
          learned tongue. Man is the talking animal. With speech we name what
          is present, for body and soul, and even hold out hope for escape from
          the old, Cartesian, imprisonment. There again, I'm a mystic,
          apparently incurable.

          [interpolations by Louise]

          >
          > - C. S. Wyatt
          > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
          all
          > that I shall be.
          > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
          > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
          >
        • priyadharshini dhanagopal
          Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 26, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • louise
            If you re referring to me, I am most certainly not sending you any junk mails. It s bad enough having to clear that sort of stuff from my own e-mail box.
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 26, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              If you're referring to me, I am most certainly not sending you any junk
              mails. It's bad enough having to clear that sort of stuff from my own
              e-mail box. Louise

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "priyadharshini dhanagopal"
              <larkinscholar@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.