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Re: Learned self destruction

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  • Mary Jo
    I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks, practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at least the 18th century, even
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 5, 2007
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      I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks,
      practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at least
      the 18th century, even brought it with them into Appalachia.

      Eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

      Mary

      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
      <existlist1@...> wrote:

      Bill / et al...

      The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic
      tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view "better")
      notions of community we have developed, a direct result of permanent
      settlements thanks for farming / domestication, tribes had to develop
      more direct balances of power. In the northern areas of the Ottoman,
      Greek justice merged with European tribal ways and we have our
      current "Western" balance of power -- the lawyer! Seriously, our
      balances between groups occur in a legal battleground (gamed by the
      state, but that's another issue).

      Tribal people didn't have the need for permanent courts. Islamic
      courts could be assembled quickly, followed a strict code mixing the
      hadith and Koran, and vendetta was an accepted part of the justice
      system. You killed one of our tribe... we'll kill two of yours. The
      problem with this is clear: what if the first death was an
      "accident"? Then, the next two become murder. Escalation occurs.

      There was a study of Arab cultures I read that concluded each side
      always "overstates" and "over reacts" to a perceived wrong. This
      would happen in our culture, too, but we seem to have decided "losing
      on appeal" is about the worst fate in a case. Arabic nations are
      working towards a similar approach -- but it will be unique to their
      cultures and not a Western idea of justice.

      A friend from Egypt told me: if you wrong me, your family is
      responsible and must also be held accountable. Your people committed
      a crime when you did.

      Think about the philosophical implications. It is the "sins of the
      father" being passed across, down, and sideways through a community.

      I'd rather say "you did this" and not hold everyone and everything
      accountable. I know society contributes. I know what I do affects
      others. But if you commit a crime, it should be you, the individual,
      who pays a price -- not everyone from your "tribe" wronged me.

      - CSW
    • louise
      Hmm .. now what about that word, vendetta ?? Doesn t look particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter. Louise ... least ... develop ... decided losing
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 6, 2007
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        Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
        particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.

        Louise
        ... spying out beams

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo" <maryjo.malo@...> wrote:
        >
        > I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks,
        > practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at
        least
        > the 18th century, even brought it with them into Appalachia.
        >
        > Eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
        >
        > Mary
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
        > <existlist1@> wrote:
        >
        > Bill / et al...
        >
        > The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic
        > tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view "better")
        > notions of community we have developed, a direct result of permanent
        > settlements thanks for farming / domestication, tribes had to
        develop
        > more direct balances of power. In the northern areas of the Ottoman,
        > Greek justice merged with European tribal ways and we have our
        > current "Western" balance of power -- the lawyer! Seriously, our
        > balances between groups occur in a legal battleground (gamed by the
        > state, but that's another issue).
        >
        > Tribal people didn't have the need for permanent courts. Islamic
        > courts could be assembled quickly, followed a strict code mixing the
        > hadith and Koran, and vendetta was an accepted part of the justice
        > system. You killed one of our tribe... we'll kill two of yours. The
        > problem with this is clear: what if the first death was an
        > "accident"? Then, the next two become murder. Escalation occurs.
        >
        > There was a study of Arab cultures I read that concluded each side
        > always "overstates" and "over reacts" to a perceived wrong. This
        > would happen in our culture, too, but we seem to have
        decided "losing
        > on appeal" is about the worst fate in a case. Arabic nations are
        > working towards a similar approach -- but it will be unique to their
        > cultures and not a Western idea of justice.
        >
        > A friend from Egypt told me: if you wrong me, your family is
        > responsible and must also be held accountable. Your people committed
        > a crime when you did.
        >
        > Think about the philosophical implications. It is the "sins of the
        > father" being passed across, down, and sideways through a community.
        >
        > I'd rather say "you did this" and not hold everyone and everything
        > accountable. I know society contributes. I know what I do affects
        > others. But if you commit a crime, it should be you, the individual,
        > who pays a price -- not everyone from your "tribe" wronged me.
        >
        > - CSW
        >
      • Exist List Moderator
        ... It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic. Vindicta was Latin for
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 11, 2007
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          On Sep 06, 2007, at 5:11, louise wrote:

          > Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
          > particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.
          >

          It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is
          also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic.
          Vindicta was Latin for Blood Feud, the Arabic is ven taar/ al van
          thar. There is evidence the two emerged from a common root, but
          languages do not evolve neatly.

          In my last Spanish class (which I took two years ago again, so it's
          sort of fresh in my mind) there was an entire unit on Arabic words in
          Spanish. Some were definite (cotton = algodon) thanks to the "al"
          prefix. Others, starting with v, a, or t, are less obvious due to
          changes over time.

          Most would agree vendetta in current form is close to the Latin,
          definitely. That does not discount the parallel development of a
          word, but does show English took the Latin form as it evolved.

          Language is a virus.

          - C. S. Wyatt
          I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
          that I shall be.
          http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
          http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
        • louise
          ... I still feel that I know nothing with any certainty about the Italian word, vendetta . Latin, though, proves endlessly fascinating, both for itself, the
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 15, 2007
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            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
            <existlist1@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Sep 06, 2007, at 5:11, louise wrote:
            >
            > > Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
            > > particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.
            > >
            >
            > It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is
            > also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic.
            > Vindicta was Latin for Blood Feud, the Arabic is ven taar/ al van
            > thar. There is evidence the two emerged from a common root, but
            > languages do not evolve neatly.

            I still feel that I know nothing with any certainty about the Italian
            word, 'vendetta'. Latin, though, proves endlessly fascinating, both
            for itself, the particular wealth of such an ordered and elegant
            language, and in regard to its poetry. Returning to the "Aeneid"
            with much pleasure, these days. And so to consult the tome:

            vindico, -are, 1 conj.,
            to lay legal claim to (a thing), whether as one's property or for its
            restoration to a free condition; arrogate, appropriate;
            Meton., to restore (to a state of liberty); set free, deliver, save;
            avenge, revenge, punish.

            vindicta, -ae, f. (vindico)
            the staff or rod with which a slave was touched in the ceremony of
            manumission; a protection, defence.

            [Smith's Latin-English dictionary, 1864].


            >
            > In my last Spanish class (which I took two years ago again, so
            it's
            > sort of fresh in my mind) there was an entire unit on Arabic words
            in
            > Spanish. Some were definite (cotton = algodon) thanks to the "al"
            > prefix. Others, starting with v, a, or t, are less obvious due to
            > changes over time.
            >
            > Most would agree vendetta in current form is close to the Latin,
            > definitely. That does not discount the parallel development of a
            > word, but does show English took the Latin form as it evolved.
            >
            > Language is a virus.

            Weird stuff (the final statement). True, that my scepticism is that
            of an aesthete, with hardly any scientific or science-based technical
            training, beyond my school studies to the age of 16, yet the ancient
            philosophical traditions too have their claims, their questions. The
            religious philosophy to which Bill has alluded includes in my opinion
            the over-reaching habits of a science which wants to account for even
            the features of human subjectivity in a language that does not
            explain, but rather excludes the fullness of the phenomenon, closes
            down the scope of discussion. It will take me time, to make good on
            earlier promises. My faith in the contemporaneity of what Heidegger
            understood about Nietzsche's vision is undiminished. Truth is
            perspectival, and repeats its forms. I believe this involves the
            facts of race, that neglected study. Such a young, thwarted
            science. Deeming the two philosophers, for now, Germanic Dane,
            Germanic Saxon; for language too is important, mother-tongue, or
            learned tongue. Man is the talking animal. With speech we name what
            is present, for body and soul, and even hold out hope for escape from
            the old, Cartesian, imprisonment. There again, I'm a mystic,
            apparently incurable.

            [interpolations by Louise]

            >
            > - C. S. Wyatt
            > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
            all
            > that I shall be.
            > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
            > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
            >
          • priyadharshini dhanagopal
            Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 26, 2007
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              Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • louise
              If you re referring to me, I am most certainly not sending you any junk mails. It s bad enough having to clear that sort of stuff from my own e-mail box.
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 26, 2007
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                If you're referring to me, I am most certainly not sending you any junk
                mails. It's bad enough having to clear that sort of stuff from my own
                e-mail box. Louise

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "priyadharshini dhanagopal"
                <larkinscholar@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
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