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Re: [existlist] Learned self destruction

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  • Exist List Moderator
    Bill / et al... The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view better ) notions of
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 5, 2007
      Bill / et al...

      The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic
      tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view "better")
      notions of community we have developed, a direct result of permanent
      settlements thanks for farming / domestication, tribes had to develop
      more direct balances of power. In the northern areas of the Ottoman,
      Greek justice merged with European tribal ways and we have our
      current "Western" balance of power -- the lawyer! Seriously, our
      balances between groups occur in a legal battleground (gamed by the
      state, but that's another issue).

      Tribal people didn't have the need for permanent courts. Islamic
      courts could be assembled quickly, followed a strict code mixing the
      hadith and Koran, and vendetta was an accepted part of the justice
      system. You killed one of our tribe... we'll kill two of yours. The
      problem with this is clear: what if the first death was an
      "accident"? Then, the next two become murder. Escalation occurs.

      There was a study of Arab cultures I read that concluded each side
      always "overstates" and "over reacts" to a perceived wrong. This
      would happen in our culture, too, but we seem to have decided "losing
      on appeal" is about the worst fate in a case. Arabic nations are
      working towards a similar approach -- but it will be unique to their
      cultures and not a Western idea of justice.

      A friend from Egypt told me: if you wrong me, your family is
      responsible and must also be held accountable. Your people committed
      a crime when you did.

      Think about the philosophical implications. It is the "sins of the
      father" being passed across, down, and sideways through a community.

      I'd rather say "you did this" and not hold everyone and everything
      accountable. I know society contributes. I know what I do affects
      others. But if you commit a crime, it should be you, the individual,
      who pays a price -- not everyone from your "tribe" wronged me.

      - CSW
    • bhvwd
      CSW et all. CNN just informed me a b52 took a flight From Minot to down south.It was carring nukes. The us has announced what was the prior policy of
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 5, 2007
        CSW et all. CNN just informed me a b52 took a flight From Minot to
        down south.It was carring nukes. The us has announced what was the
        prior policy of having nukes in the air. The whole damn cold war they
        were orbiting, waiting to hit their fail safe points and destroy the
        world. I guess we have trusted them with the hammer all along. It does
        bring back memories of" Duck and Cover".
        Thank you for the excellent Info about vindetta. I don`t think those
        guys need squadrons of orbiting bombers. Orbiting AK`s are bad enough.
        We just sent them enough battle assault weapons to blast away for
        decades. Our next big program for the area could be labeled Oil for
        Arms. Catchy?No. Bill
      • Mary Jo
        I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks, practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at least the 18th century, even
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 5, 2007
          I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks,
          practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at least
          the 18th century, even brought it with them into Appalachia.

          Eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

          Mary

          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
          <existlist1@...> wrote:

          Bill / et al...

          The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic
          tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view "better")
          notions of community we have developed, a direct result of permanent
          settlements thanks for farming / domestication, tribes had to develop
          more direct balances of power. In the northern areas of the Ottoman,
          Greek justice merged with European tribal ways and we have our
          current "Western" balance of power -- the lawyer! Seriously, our
          balances between groups occur in a legal battleground (gamed by the
          state, but that's another issue).

          Tribal people didn't have the need for permanent courts. Islamic
          courts could be assembled quickly, followed a strict code mixing the
          hadith and Koran, and vendetta was an accepted part of the justice
          system. You killed one of our tribe... we'll kill two of yours. The
          problem with this is clear: what if the first death was an
          "accident"? Then, the next two become murder. Escalation occurs.

          There was a study of Arab cultures I read that concluded each side
          always "overstates" and "over reacts" to a perceived wrong. This
          would happen in our culture, too, but we seem to have decided "losing
          on appeal" is about the worst fate in a case. Arabic nations are
          working towards a similar approach -- but it will be unique to their
          cultures and not a Western idea of justice.

          A friend from Egypt told me: if you wrong me, your family is
          responsible and must also be held accountable. Your people committed
          a crime when you did.

          Think about the philosophical implications. It is the "sins of the
          father" being passed across, down, and sideways through a community.

          I'd rather say "you did this" and not hold everyone and everything
          accountable. I know society contributes. I know what I do affects
          others. But if you commit a crime, it should be you, the individual,
          who pays a price -- not everyone from your "tribe" wronged me.

          - CSW
        • louise
          Hmm .. now what about that word, vendetta ?? Doesn t look particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter. Louise ... least ... develop ... decided losing
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 6, 2007
            Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
            particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.

            Louise
            ... spying out beams

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo" <maryjo.malo@...> wrote:
            >
            > I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks,
            > practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at
            least
            > the 18th century, even brought it with them into Appalachia.
            >
            > Eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
            >
            > Mary
            >
            > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
            > <existlist1@> wrote:
            >
            > Bill / et al...
            >
            > The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic
            > tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view "better")
            > notions of community we have developed, a direct result of permanent
            > settlements thanks for farming / domestication, tribes had to
            develop
            > more direct balances of power. In the northern areas of the Ottoman,
            > Greek justice merged with European tribal ways and we have our
            > current "Western" balance of power -- the lawyer! Seriously, our
            > balances between groups occur in a legal battleground (gamed by the
            > state, but that's another issue).
            >
            > Tribal people didn't have the need for permanent courts. Islamic
            > courts could be assembled quickly, followed a strict code mixing the
            > hadith and Koran, and vendetta was an accepted part of the justice
            > system. You killed one of our tribe... we'll kill two of yours. The
            > problem with this is clear: what if the first death was an
            > "accident"? Then, the next two become murder. Escalation occurs.
            >
            > There was a study of Arab cultures I read that concluded each side
            > always "overstates" and "over reacts" to a perceived wrong. This
            > would happen in our culture, too, but we seem to have
            decided "losing
            > on appeal" is about the worst fate in a case. Arabic nations are
            > working towards a similar approach -- but it will be unique to their
            > cultures and not a Western idea of justice.
            >
            > A friend from Egypt told me: if you wrong me, your family is
            > responsible and must also be held accountable. Your people committed
            > a crime when you did.
            >
            > Think about the philosophical implications. It is the "sins of the
            > father" being passed across, down, and sideways through a community.
            >
            > I'd rather say "you did this" and not hold everyone and everything
            > accountable. I know society contributes. I know what I do affects
            > others. But if you commit a crime, it should be you, the individual,
            > who pays a price -- not everyone from your "tribe" wronged me.
            >
            > - CSW
            >
          • Exist List Moderator
            ... It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic. Vindicta was Latin for
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 11, 2007
              On Sep 06, 2007, at 5:11, louise wrote:

              > Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
              > particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.
              >

              It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is
              also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic.
              Vindicta was Latin for Blood Feud, the Arabic is ven taar/ al van
              thar. There is evidence the two emerged from a common root, but
              languages do not evolve neatly.

              In my last Spanish class (which I took two years ago again, so it's
              sort of fresh in my mind) there was an entire unit on Arabic words in
              Spanish. Some were definite (cotton = algodon) thanks to the "al"
              prefix. Others, starting with v, a, or t, are less obvious due to
              changes over time.

              Most would agree vendetta in current form is close to the Latin,
              definitely. That does not discount the parallel development of a
              word, but does show English took the Latin form as it evolved.

              Language is a virus.

              - C. S. Wyatt
              I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
              that I shall be.
              http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
              http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
            • louise
              ... I still feel that I know nothing with any certainty about the Italian word, vendetta . Latin, though, proves endlessly fascinating, both for itself, the
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 15, 2007
                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
                <existlist1@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Sep 06, 2007, at 5:11, louise wrote:
                >
                > > Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
                > > particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.
                > >
                >
                > It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is
                > also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic.
                > Vindicta was Latin for Blood Feud, the Arabic is ven taar/ al van
                > thar. There is evidence the two emerged from a common root, but
                > languages do not evolve neatly.

                I still feel that I know nothing with any certainty about the Italian
                word, 'vendetta'. Latin, though, proves endlessly fascinating, both
                for itself, the particular wealth of such an ordered and elegant
                language, and in regard to its poetry. Returning to the "Aeneid"
                with much pleasure, these days. And so to consult the tome:

                vindico, -are, 1 conj.,
                to lay legal claim to (a thing), whether as one's property or for its
                restoration to a free condition; arrogate, appropriate;
                Meton., to restore (to a state of liberty); set free, deliver, save;
                avenge, revenge, punish.

                vindicta, -ae, f. (vindico)
                the staff or rod with which a slave was touched in the ceremony of
                manumission; a protection, defence.

                [Smith's Latin-English dictionary, 1864].


                >
                > In my last Spanish class (which I took two years ago again, so
                it's
                > sort of fresh in my mind) there was an entire unit on Arabic words
                in
                > Spanish. Some were definite (cotton = algodon) thanks to the "al"
                > prefix. Others, starting with v, a, or t, are less obvious due to
                > changes over time.
                >
                > Most would agree vendetta in current form is close to the Latin,
                > definitely. That does not discount the parallel development of a
                > word, but does show English took the Latin form as it evolved.
                >
                > Language is a virus.

                Weird stuff (the final statement). True, that my scepticism is that
                of an aesthete, with hardly any scientific or science-based technical
                training, beyond my school studies to the age of 16, yet the ancient
                philosophical traditions too have their claims, their questions. The
                religious philosophy to which Bill has alluded includes in my opinion
                the over-reaching habits of a science which wants to account for even
                the features of human subjectivity in a language that does not
                explain, but rather excludes the fullness of the phenomenon, closes
                down the scope of discussion. It will take me time, to make good on
                earlier promises. My faith in the contemporaneity of what Heidegger
                understood about Nietzsche's vision is undiminished. Truth is
                perspectival, and repeats its forms. I believe this involves the
                facts of race, that neglected study. Such a young, thwarted
                science. Deeming the two philosophers, for now, Germanic Dane,
                Germanic Saxon; for language too is important, mother-tongue, or
                learned tongue. Man is the talking animal. With speech we name what
                is present, for body and soul, and even hold out hope for escape from
                the old, Cartesian, imprisonment. There again, I'm a mystic,
                apparently incurable.

                [interpolations by Louise]

                >
                > - C. S. Wyatt
                > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
                all
                > that I shall be.
                > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                >
              • priyadharshini dhanagopal
                Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 26, 2007
                  Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • louise
                  If you re referring to me, I am most certainly not sending you any junk mails. It s bad enough having to clear that sort of stuff from my own e-mail box.
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 26, 2007
                    If you're referring to me, I am most certainly not sending you any junk
                    mails. It's bad enough having to clear that sort of stuff from my own
                    e-mail box. Louise

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "priyadharshini dhanagopal"
                    <larkinscholar@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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