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Learned self destruction

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  • bhvwd
    Trinidad. I have always thought Jahaad is Islams answer to overpopulation. The rigorous desert environment allows very little margin for extra people to
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 5, 2007
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      Trinidad. I have always thought Jahaad is Islams answer to
      overpopulation. The rigorous desert environment allows very little
      margin for extra people to exist within an arid place. Islam knows
      it must expand or fight it out internally for survival.
      I do not know if this has penetrated our genetic apparatus but your
      postulate certainly bears scrutany.
      The big bang theory has gained general acceptance with scientists.
      Fred Hoyle argued against it for decades but Penzius and Nelson from
      Bell Labs settled that matter with their proof of the Big Bang
      background radiation. We live in a finite universe and need govern
      ourselves accordingly.
      The better solution is controlling population nimbers with
      contraception. War is a stupid and wasteful alternative,yet we have
      religions and moralities that force us to war.
      I can explain this to someone like yourself who has a high science
      IQ. To those who approach the cosmos from a theological viewpoint
      there is little hope of making any progress.
      If we are genetically programmed for war then genetic engineering
      may be a long term solution but the crushing weight of overpopulation
      and finite resources remains to be delt with.
      Ther is no authority to enforce population control and there is no
      magic bullet to turn this cosmos into a steady state universe. We
      are left with war as an alternative.
      Winning the war and surviving becomes the strategy into the future.
      With knowledge of these mechanics modern man escapes the punishments
      of gods and moralities. We are trapped in our finitude but I think
      most people retain enough species loyalty to insist only the
      minnimum number should be fed into the war machine.
      As we back away from strategic commoditys and conventional combat in
      the oil rich middle east we in essance up the ante for nuclear
      involvement. The American people refuse the initiation of a draft
      which would allow for a covventional solution of hostilities.
      This is modern philosophy operating in the real world. Those who
      understand the connundrum seem few and trying to dodge these stark
      realities only makes it worse. Bill
    • Exist List Moderator
      Bill / et al... The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view better ) notions of
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 5, 2007
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        Bill / et al...

        The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic
        tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view "better")
        notions of community we have developed, a direct result of permanent
        settlements thanks for farming / domestication, tribes had to develop
        more direct balances of power. In the northern areas of the Ottoman,
        Greek justice merged with European tribal ways and we have our
        current "Western" balance of power -- the lawyer! Seriously, our
        balances between groups occur in a legal battleground (gamed by the
        state, but that's another issue).

        Tribal people didn't have the need for permanent courts. Islamic
        courts could be assembled quickly, followed a strict code mixing the
        hadith and Koran, and vendetta was an accepted part of the justice
        system. You killed one of our tribe... we'll kill two of yours. The
        problem with this is clear: what if the first death was an
        "accident"? Then, the next two become murder. Escalation occurs.

        There was a study of Arab cultures I read that concluded each side
        always "overstates" and "over reacts" to a perceived wrong. This
        would happen in our culture, too, but we seem to have decided "losing
        on appeal" is about the worst fate in a case. Arabic nations are
        working towards a similar approach -- but it will be unique to their
        cultures and not a Western idea of justice.

        A friend from Egypt told me: if you wrong me, your family is
        responsible and must also be held accountable. Your people committed
        a crime when you did.

        Think about the philosophical implications. It is the "sins of the
        father" being passed across, down, and sideways through a community.

        I'd rather say "you did this" and not hold everyone and everything
        accountable. I know society contributes. I know what I do affects
        others. But if you commit a crime, it should be you, the individual,
        who pays a price -- not everyone from your "tribe" wronged me.

        - CSW
      • bhvwd
        CSW et all. CNN just informed me a b52 took a flight From Minot to down south.It was carring nukes. The us has announced what was the prior policy of
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 5, 2007
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          CSW et all. CNN just informed me a b52 took a flight From Minot to
          down south.It was carring nukes. The us has announced what was the
          prior policy of having nukes in the air. The whole damn cold war they
          were orbiting, waiting to hit their fail safe points and destroy the
          world. I guess we have trusted them with the hammer all along. It does
          bring back memories of" Duck and Cover".
          Thank you for the excellent Info about vindetta. I don`t think those
          guys need squadrons of orbiting bombers. Orbiting AK`s are bad enough.
          We just sent them enough battle assault weapons to blast away for
          decades. Our next big program for the area could be labeled Oil for
          Arms. Catchy?No. Bill
        • Mary Jo
          I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks, practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at least the 18th century, even
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 5, 2007
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            I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks,
            practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at least
            the 18th century, even brought it with them into Appalachia.

            Eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
            <existlist1@...> wrote:

            Bill / et al...

            The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic
            tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view "better")
            notions of community we have developed, a direct result of permanent
            settlements thanks for farming / domestication, tribes had to develop
            more direct balances of power. In the northern areas of the Ottoman,
            Greek justice merged with European tribal ways and we have our
            current "Western" balance of power -- the lawyer! Seriously, our
            balances between groups occur in a legal battleground (gamed by the
            state, but that's another issue).

            Tribal people didn't have the need for permanent courts. Islamic
            courts could be assembled quickly, followed a strict code mixing the
            hadith and Koran, and vendetta was an accepted part of the justice
            system. You killed one of our tribe... we'll kill two of yours. The
            problem with this is clear: what if the first death was an
            "accident"? Then, the next two become murder. Escalation occurs.

            There was a study of Arab cultures I read that concluded each side
            always "overstates" and "over reacts" to a perceived wrong. This
            would happen in our culture, too, but we seem to have decided "losing
            on appeal" is about the worst fate in a case. Arabic nations are
            working towards a similar approach -- but it will be unique to their
            cultures and not a Western idea of justice.

            A friend from Egypt told me: if you wrong me, your family is
            responsible and must also be held accountable. Your people committed
            a crime when you did.

            Think about the philosophical implications. It is the "sins of the
            father" being passed across, down, and sideways through a community.

            I'd rather say "you did this" and not hold everyone and everything
            accountable. I know society contributes. I know what I do affects
            others. But if you commit a crime, it should be you, the individual,
            who pays a price -- not everyone from your "tribe" wronged me.

            - CSW
          • louise
            Hmm .. now what about that word, vendetta ?? Doesn t look particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter. Louise ... least ... develop ... decided losing
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 6, 2007
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              Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
              particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.

              Louise
              ... spying out beams

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Jo" <maryjo.malo@...> wrote:
              >
              > I recall that some of the Germanic tribes, particularly the Franks,
              > practiced the blood oath. The Scots clans also did so until at
              least
              > the 18th century, even brought it with them into Appalachia.
              >
              > Eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
              >
              > Mary
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
              > <existlist1@> wrote:
              >
              > Bill / et al...
              >
              > The notion of vendetta justice evolved in a region with nomadic
              > tribes. Without the artificial (but in my biased view "better")
              > notions of community we have developed, a direct result of permanent
              > settlements thanks for farming / domestication, tribes had to
              develop
              > more direct balances of power. In the northern areas of the Ottoman,
              > Greek justice merged with European tribal ways and we have our
              > current "Western" balance of power -- the lawyer! Seriously, our
              > balances between groups occur in a legal battleground (gamed by the
              > state, but that's another issue).
              >
              > Tribal people didn't have the need for permanent courts. Islamic
              > courts could be assembled quickly, followed a strict code mixing the
              > hadith and Koran, and vendetta was an accepted part of the justice
              > system. You killed one of our tribe... we'll kill two of yours. The
              > problem with this is clear: what if the first death was an
              > "accident"? Then, the next two become murder. Escalation occurs.
              >
              > There was a study of Arab cultures I read that concluded each side
              > always "overstates" and "over reacts" to a perceived wrong. This
              > would happen in our culture, too, but we seem to have
              decided "losing
              > on appeal" is about the worst fate in a case. Arabic nations are
              > working towards a similar approach -- but it will be unique to their
              > cultures and not a Western idea of justice.
              >
              > A friend from Egypt told me: if you wrong me, your family is
              > responsible and must also be held accountable. Your people committed
              > a crime when you did.
              >
              > Think about the philosophical implications. It is the "sins of the
              > father" being passed across, down, and sideways through a community.
              >
              > I'd rather say "you did this" and not hold everyone and everything
              > accountable. I know society contributes. I know what I do affects
              > others. But if you commit a crime, it should be you, the individual,
              > who pays a price -- not everyone from your "tribe" wronged me.
              >
              > - CSW
              >
            • Exist List Moderator
              ... It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic. Vindicta was Latin for
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 11, 2007
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                On Sep 06, 2007, at 5:11, louise wrote:

                > Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
                > particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.
                >

                It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is
                also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic.
                Vindicta was Latin for Blood Feud, the Arabic is ven taar/ al van
                thar. There is evidence the two emerged from a common root, but
                languages do not evolve neatly.

                In my last Spanish class (which I took two years ago again, so it's
                sort of fresh in my mind) there was an entire unit on Arabic words in
                Spanish. Some were definite (cotton = algodon) thanks to the "al"
                prefix. Others, starting with v, a, or t, are less obvious due to
                changes over time.

                Most would agree vendetta in current form is close to the Latin,
                definitely. That does not discount the parallel development of a
                word, but does show English took the Latin form as it evolved.

                Language is a virus.

                - C. S. Wyatt
                I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
                that I shall be.
                http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
              • louise
                ... I still feel that I know nothing with any certainty about the Italian word, vendetta . Latin, though, proves endlessly fascinating, both for itself, the
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 15, 2007
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                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
                  <existlist1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Sep 06, 2007, at 5:11, louise wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hmm .. now what about that word, 'vendetta'?? Doesn't look
                  > > particularly Arabic, or Germanic, for that matter.
                  > >
                  >
                  > It was morphed from Latin, later Italian, but linguistically it is
                  > also like several Spanish/Italian words influenced by Arabic.
                  > Vindicta was Latin for Blood Feud, the Arabic is ven taar/ al van
                  > thar. There is evidence the two emerged from a common root, but
                  > languages do not evolve neatly.

                  I still feel that I know nothing with any certainty about the Italian
                  word, 'vendetta'. Latin, though, proves endlessly fascinating, both
                  for itself, the particular wealth of such an ordered and elegant
                  language, and in regard to its poetry. Returning to the "Aeneid"
                  with much pleasure, these days. And so to consult the tome:

                  vindico, -are, 1 conj.,
                  to lay legal claim to (a thing), whether as one's property or for its
                  restoration to a free condition; arrogate, appropriate;
                  Meton., to restore (to a state of liberty); set free, deliver, save;
                  avenge, revenge, punish.

                  vindicta, -ae, f. (vindico)
                  the staff or rod with which a slave was touched in the ceremony of
                  manumission; a protection, defence.

                  [Smith's Latin-English dictionary, 1864].


                  >
                  > In my last Spanish class (which I took two years ago again, so
                  it's
                  > sort of fresh in my mind) there was an entire unit on Arabic words
                  in
                  > Spanish. Some were definite (cotton = algodon) thanks to the "al"
                  > prefix. Others, starting with v, a, or t, are less obvious due to
                  > changes over time.
                  >
                  > Most would agree vendetta in current form is close to the Latin,
                  > definitely. That does not discount the parallel development of a
                  > word, but does show English took the Latin form as it evolved.
                  >
                  > Language is a virus.

                  Weird stuff (the final statement). True, that my scepticism is that
                  of an aesthete, with hardly any scientific or science-based technical
                  training, beyond my school studies to the age of 16, yet the ancient
                  philosophical traditions too have their claims, their questions. The
                  religious philosophy to which Bill has alluded includes in my opinion
                  the over-reaching habits of a science which wants to account for even
                  the features of human subjectivity in a language that does not
                  explain, but rather excludes the fullness of the phenomenon, closes
                  down the scope of discussion. It will take me time, to make good on
                  earlier promises. My faith in the contemporaneity of what Heidegger
                  understood about Nietzsche's vision is undiminished. Truth is
                  perspectival, and repeats its forms. I believe this involves the
                  facts of race, that neglected study. Such a young, thwarted
                  science. Deeming the two philosophers, for now, Germanic Dane,
                  Germanic Saxon; for language too is important, mother-tongue, or
                  learned tongue. Man is the talking animal. With speech we name what
                  is present, for body and soul, and even hold out hope for escape from
                  the old, Cartesian, imprisonment. There again, I'm a mystic,
                  apparently incurable.

                  [interpolations by Louise]

                  >
                  > - C. S. Wyatt
                  > I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not
                  all
                  > that I shall be.
                  > http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
                  > http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
                  >
                • priyadharshini dhanagopal
                  Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 26, 2007
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                    Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • louise
                    If you re referring to me, I am most certainly not sending you any junk mails. It s bad enough having to clear that sort of stuff from my own e-mail box.
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 26, 2007
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                      If you're referring to me, I am most certainly not sending you any junk
                      mails. It's bad enough having to clear that sort of stuff from my own
                      e-mail box. Louise

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "priyadharshini dhanagopal"
                      <larkinscholar@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey u Lousie idiot stop sending me junk mails
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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