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  • bhvwd
    I was raised in a combative environment. Violence prone individuals of many sorts were always present. Fighting was plentiful and punishment for such was
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 1, 2007
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      I was raised in a combative environment. Violence prone individuals
      of many sorts were always present. Fighting was plentiful and
      punishment for such was swift and corporal. The worst outcome was to
      lose the fight and still be beaten by authority. I was taught to
      win the fight and take your punishment as a stoic winner. Hold your
      head up.
      The religous tried to turn the cheek and they gained nothing but
      an ass whipping and complete disrespect from all but the holy joes. I
      put Mr Stuart in the god fearing, reality fearing camp. The French
      resistance was a secound tier, after action attempt at survival. The
      main battle was over and the first blow had carried the day.
      Blitskrieg is a great way to win.
      Christian theists rely on a love of a plastic jesus who exhibits
      no stomach for the competition inherant in this evolving species. We
      do not need altar boys, we need stalwart individuals who support the
      eradication of fanitical foes. Bushido japanese were such a foe and
      they used suprise attack in an all out attempt to destroy us. The
      casualty numbers of Pearl harbour and 9/11 are very similar. The
      Islamic foe has elected to prey on the pacifist nature of Stuart
      types here. They know that believers will howl their christian
      morality just as they tried to stop Harry Truman from finishing the
      Japanese.
      I no longer despise the Japanese because I reserve those judgments
      for the theist scum that distorts the world today. It is a meeting
      of believers that causes a war to drag on in the name of allah and
      jesus. Trinidad has a keen point in his acessment of the symbiosis
      of neocon and islamic radical. The great , foot washing christian
      hoard plays righyt into the hands of such conspiracies. I will speak
      against both. Nagasaki has been rebuilt but the world trade center
      has not. Stuart and his jesus buddies should get their magical
      thinking straight and get in the damn game. Bill
    • jimstuart46
      Bill, Your philosophy is: The world is a violent place, so I must be tougher, more violent, than the next guy, otherwise I ll go under. My philosophy is: The
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 1, 2007
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        Bill,

        Your philosophy is: The world is a violent place, so I must be
        tougher, more violent, than the next guy, otherwise I'll go under.

        My philosophy is: The cycle of violence can be broken by courageous
        non-violent people standing firm in the face of intimidation and
        threats.

        Remember the Chinese guy who stood in front of the tanks in
        Tiananmen Square? Remember the Czech guy who set himself on fire as
        a protest to the Soviet invasion in 1968? You don't win hearts and
        minds with a fist in the face, you win hearts and minds by
        courageously facing up to reality in a non-violent way. We need to
        win the hearts and minds of our Muslim friends, not nuke them out of
        existence.

        On the best method to combat terrorism, listen to Trinidad:

        "As far as footbaths: I absolutely argue for separation of church
        and state. They can wash their feet at home or the Mosque. The law
        is more important and must continue to pursue its separation from
        religion or lose its grip on civilization altogether. This is the
        line we really must hold in the face of terrorism. We need stronger
        self-defense laws in this country. A child being beaten by any adult
        is already against the law. On the other side of this coin the law
        must be continually vigilant toward constitutional issues. We fail
        if we allow terrorism to convert us to a police state. Our legal
        system and our constitution are the most elegant proposition to
        appear of any civilization in history; to respect that completely we
        cannot compromise it to a goal of converting the world to our
        thinking while violating our own cachet. We can only move the world
        toward our democracy by being what we are, and being willing to
        defend that without question and without compromising what it is. No
        one said it would be easy, except of course for the neo-cons."

        The neo-cons will be cheering your every post at present, Bill. They
        agree with you that "might is right". They love your blind approval
        of every aspect of America's foreign policy.

        Your introduction of the US war with Japan in the 1940's is a useful
        example. In that war the Americans were the good guys – they helped
        Britain, France and Russia defeat Nazi German, and they defeated
        fascist Japan after they were attacked first.

        The current situation where America is at war with the Arabs is
        entirely different. Here America are the bad guys – they don't want
        justice and democracy in the Middle East, they want oil.

        I guess you think the oil should go to the country with the biggest
        guns. A nice variety of nihilism.

        I see why you want to place me with Jesus brigade. But I think you
        are closer to the Evangelical Right. Your "us and them" mentality is
        very theistic.

        Jim … spinning more magical thoughts.
      • bhvwd
        ... of ... adult ... we ... No ... They ... useful ... is ... bashing is always in vogue when we are on top and some of us plan to stay most promanently in
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 1, 2007
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "jimstuart46" <jjimstuart@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > Your philosophy is: The world is a violent place, so I must be
          > tougher, more violent, than the next guy, otherwise I'll go under.
          >
          > My philosophy is: The cycle of violence can be broken by courageous
          > non-violent people standing firm in the face of intimidation and
          > threats.
          >
          > Remember the Chinese guy who stood in front of the tanks in
          > Tiananmen Square? Remember the Czech guy who set himself on fire as
          > a protest to the Soviet invasion in 1968? You don't win hearts and
          > minds with a fist in the face, you win hearts and minds by
          > courageously facing up to reality in a non-violent way. We need to
          > win the hearts and minds of our Muslim friends, not nuke them out
          of
          > existence.
          >
          > On the best method to combat terrorism, listen to Trinidad:
          >
          > "As far as footbaths: I absolutely argue for separation of church
          > and state. They can wash their feet at home or the Mosque. The law
          > is more important and must continue to pursue its separation from
          > religion or lose its grip on civilization altogether. This is the
          > line we really must hold in the face of terrorism. We need stronger
          > self-defense laws in this country. A child being beaten by any
          adult
          > is already against the law. On the other side of this coin the law
          > must be continually vigilant toward constitutional issues. We fail
          > if we allow terrorism to convert us to a police state. Our legal
          > system and our constitution are the most elegant proposition to
          > appear of any civilization in history; to respect that completely
          we
          > cannot compromise it to a goal of converting the world to our
          > thinking while violating our own cachet. We can only move the world
          > toward our democracy by being what we are, and being willing to
          > defend that without question and without compromising what it is.
          No
          > one said it would be easy, except of course for the neo-cons."
          >
          > The neo-cons will be cheering your every post at present, Bill.
          They
          > agree with you that "might is right". They love your blind approval
          > of every aspect of America's foreign policy.
          >
          > Your introduction of the US war with Japan in the 1940's is a
          useful
          > example. In that war the Americans were the good guys – they helped
          > Britain, France and Russia defeat Nazi German, and they defeated
          > fascist Japan after they were attacked first.
          >
          > The current situation where America is at war with the Arabs is
          > entirely different. Here America are the bad guys – they don't want
          > justice and democracy in the Middle East, they want oil.
          >
          > I guess you think the oil should go to the country with the biggest
          > guns. A nice variety of nihilism.
          >
          > I see why you want to place me with Jesus brigade. But I think you
          > are closer to the Evangelical Right. Your "us and them" mentality
          is
          > very theistic.
          >
          > Jim … spinning more magical thoughts.
          >At least you are behinning to think rather than theologise. America
          bashing is always in vogue when we are on top and some of us plan
          to stay most promanently in control.
          Stragetic materials are not evil or good and the demonisation of
          oil is a childish pursuit. That trade transaction should be a
          matter of quid pro quo business not theological bantering about
          different gods. You will not accept that your jesus perspective is
          not usefully operant in the present world and its economies. To call
          me a theistic evangelical is a lie and you are putting yourself to
          the part of the fool by insisting such. If you refuse to get your
          nose out of the prayer book than give us the decency to quit this
          list. Bill
        • C. S. Wyatt
          ... The Chinese political system did not change much, did it? Look at the resistance to Hong Kong s Basic Law -- a decade and still no directly elected
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 1, 2007
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            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "jimstuart46" <jjimstuart@...> wrote:
            >Remember the Chinese guy who stood in front of the tanks in
            > Tiananmen Square? Remember the Czech guy who set himself on fire as
            > a protest to the Soviet invasion in 1968? You don't win hearts and
            > minds with a fist in the face, you win hearts and minds by
            > courageously facing up to reality in a non-violent way. We need to
            > win the hearts and minds of our Muslim friends, not nuke them out of
            > existence.

            The Chinese political system did not change much, did it? Look at the resistance to Hong
            Kong's Basic Law -- a decade and still no directly elected executive. Last month, the
            Communist Party reaffirmed that the military is loyal first to the Party, then to China.
            Progress in a few cities has decimated the interior of China.

            Non-violence can be effective, but usually there are already underlying social pressures
            that allow the protests to be tipping points. The Civil Rights Movement in the U.S. was the
            result of a slow evolution. The NYT had a good column about Brown v. Board of Ed and
            how the decision didn't change America -- there were lots of other factors at work, too.

            I don't know about winning hearts and minds of various people. I honestly don't care to
            win hearts; I'd rather we leave them to kill each other over Shiite / Sunni / Kurd-Sunni /
            Persian-Shiite / Turkish Sunni differences and not put any of our own people at risk. Stop
            arming everyone in the region, give up debating who is / is not "right" in centuries of
            warfare, and let time do whatever it will.

            People kill over stupid things. In fact, people also allow stupid killings, which I think
            makes them complacent and at least in some way responsible. But, that's a choice.

            If we vote (indirectly or directly) to do nothing for vast regions of African nations, that's an
            active decision. If I support democracy, I have to accept the results or I'm a hypocrite. (I
            actually do not support direct democracy, since I think most people are not only ill-
            informed, but make an effort to avoid news. It isn't like you can't buy The Nation or listen
            to Air America / Nova M in most large cities.)

            Peaceful protests are part of our system, and they can have some effect, but standing in
            front of a Chinese tank only matters if people inside China see the act and unify. That
            didn't happen. Different culture, different experiences.

            I'm a decently informed consumer of information. I still don't know what is "right" or
            "wrong" internationally. I make a best guess, based on what I think does the least harm to
            others. Curiously, doing little often does the least amount of overall harm.

            - CSW
          • jimstuart46
            CSW, You write: Peaceful protests are part of our system, and they can have some effect, but standing in front of a Chinese tank only matters if people inside
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 2, 2007
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              CSW,

              You write:

              "Peaceful protests are part of our system, and they can have some
              effect, but standing in front of a Chinese tank only matters if people
              inside China see the act and unify. That didn't happen. Different
              culture, different experiences."

              Even if the heroic act was not seen in China, it was seen all over the
              world, and acts of extreme courage and heroism do inspire people to do
              more to bring about a better world.

              We influence each other by our actions, not by our words – that's why
              children learn from what their parents do, and not from what their
              parents say. The photo/video of the Chinese guy standing alone before
              the convoy of tanks is an image that inspires me, and, I'm sure,
              others as well, to fight for democracy and against totalitarian
              dictatorship.

              Jim
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