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My take on it

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  • James Johnson
    LOUISE, Though unable to be the mouths Wil/Wyatt, you say that they wish me to provide something substantial that would offer a focus of discussion, though,
    Message 1 of 39 , Nov 24, 2006
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      Though unable to be the mouths Wil/Wyatt, you say that they wish me to provide
      something substantial that would offer a focus of discussion, though, but as added by
      them do it without questions, answers or get out of Dodge.
      What is substantial ? The judgment of what substantial ( like beauty ) is resides in
      the mind of the one asking for the other to change or leave. Even when I practically exam
      and take in every word that is written and respond with questions in a free felt hearted
      way to understand the author's world, they don't want to be questioned. I believe that they
      don't take questions because that don't really ask hard question of themselves since they
      don't understand the words that they spew out. I can make these postulations because
      with my attempt to reason ( understand ) they choose to dismiss my questions and only to
      complain ( though Wil says I complain ) with the response that I'm inapporpriate ( abusive )
      without explaining when, where and how this occurs. Wyatt states I violated the rules but I
      have not from reading them at his site. They can't be responsible for their words. They are
      demonstarting unauthenticity in expressing in action that the Indivdual does not defines
      everything. They do not want to define themselves when questioned about their own
      words. Amazingly, Someone's freedom is not everyone's freedom when questions, not a
      gun, is held to them.
      A focused conversation is analogous to an authority figure demanding others to
      tow their line of reasoning or focus since theirs is correct way. One may obtain a complete
      different set of words ( freedom/choice/will/responsiblity ) but the old habits and action
      may not have change at all. This example is above. If one doesn't learn from ones past one
      tends to just repeat the past performing actions no matter what different clothes one put
      on. Having the need to be authortarian in youth with others get to blossom with the more
      words added to your literary repertoire becoming thus the 'Existentialistic Thinker' or
      minister or priest. Conversation is more productive when it's flow hits the rocks in it's
      path so the turbulence of each others conflicting thoughts and feelings occur to help
      develop real personal understanding of what is written.
      You say that this site is about the development of the ideas of the various
      thinkers and artist. I have only seen in the web's bylaws about staying on philosophical
      topics and the encourgaement of exhange of ideas and not the promotion of other people.
      I truly believe that the Individual defines Everything that he/she comes in contact with. So
      it still hard to hear places such value and importance on the words of some author when
      their words goes into our own individual mind filters and what gaining occurs in their
      meaning/value depends on our past experiences. And placing such importancy on the
      words of someone else encourages the attitude that if you don't know or can't recite the
      words of some dead man your words mean less as does your experience, which makes my
      blood boil. So I cringe when ( others cringe with the words of inner feelings ) I hear words
      that are given such voice/power to ' Thinkers' or 'Artist' and not given to the voice of the
      common human's meaning of the written words of the 'thinker' or 'prophet.
      To me the elevations and power given to the 'thinkers' words can be no
      different then the elevations or power to the words given to the religious prophet. So often
      with the those individuals with authoritarin internal complex the elevation of the power of
      the words of some religious prophet or some great 'Existentialist Thinker' really becomes
      the power of their words ( use the words to put the meaning into their actions). He's only
      using the words to push his authoritarin behavior. BECAUSE IN ACTUALITY THE WORDS
      WORDS THAT IS SEEN IN ACTIONS. Just like the guy from Turkey said being a Muslin in
      actions/deeds is the same as some Christian/Existentialist anywhere in the world. It's all
      about THE INDIVIDUAL surviving and finding words that help make sense of your internal/
      external world or thus find self acceptancy through are ones interactions/relationships
      with others in eating, sex, getting a sense security in things, and having relationship that
      are satisfying and not too painful.
      You say that my hospital environment is different than this web list
      environment, you are right and wrong. Different in that, here you can't see the body
      language and the words can over shadow the actions. Though in time the words have
      objective data inferring action. The same in that feelings and questions matter a lot. At
      this site feelings are experienced. People seemed to appreciate the other. People get
      upset/mad with the other, people don't talk or respond to the other or people may hid
      their feelings for safety and leave. You are sadly right that here questions aren't
      encouraged as can be the same in the outside but how in the world can you choice or
      develop what your reasons and facts are based on without questioning them in the first so
      that you are prepared to debate them with others ? These are all definite FEELINGS. You
      don't believe that most thoughts are connect to feelings ? So there is definitely a lot of
      feelings around this site. Look at work, my work is no different, than any other work ( it's
      not one big orgy of questioing about people's feelings ) its surrounded with a lot of people
      in different states of stress ( yes, feelings and thoughts, including all the staff ) with the
      demand to explain ( you betcha you are accountable to colleagues and patient/family ) the
      treatment rationale for the actions and where are the facts to back it up. Administrators,
      Doctors, Nurses, Techs with a lot of unequal ( power trips ) relationships between them.
      Probably no different than other work enironment where there is a lot of unequal divisions
      of labor. The odds are that its very different than the literary/philosophy academics
      environment. As in medicine, having agreed objective reference points ( blood pressure
      better or worse ) I assume that in academia the focus has less defined subjective reference
      points where its harder to prove or disprove if the word are up or down. Thus I bet with
      good vehement powers of debate one can prove that ones words are up now when just
      last minute you prove that they were down. Thus I bet you can do both, prove and
      disprove beliefs or statements using the exact words just moving the words around.
      Great question, putting your qusetion in my own words, how does one
      perserve one's individuality ( ones thoughts/feelings ) in relationship with someone else's
      individuality ( their thoughts/feelings) without breaking up the relationship ? This a
      question only for those of us that have a internal directive to serve and put other's needs/
      wants before our own. For the others that feel that someone else is here for their needs
      ands wants, they have no question in this arena. Yes, you can win someone over to your
      side by being nice and warm but usually you have to put yourself out in the cold. But really
      aren't you being warm to that part of inside yourself that says "Be sure Jay remember never
      be cold or hurt someone ", isn't that's who one is trying to make happy ? Isn't it' just that
      the external person represent/symbolizes your inner voice. What do you do after giving
      warmth, respect, listening and attempting to understand to the other's individuality
      ( world ) with your words and they still take offense to you, rejection, being dismissive,
      disrespectful and treating you less than equal as a human. You have the right to yourself
      and a responsiblity to the other person to wake him up to the fact that if he is being
      subjectively unequal ( ME ME only, mean) with you and will exert your equality , that is he's
      a jerk. But one needs personal understanding as to why one feels that one deserves being
      treated like a jerk in the first place before one can change . That's why I believe that one
      just can't say now because I have the knowledge of these beautiful words I now have free
      will and choice in this vey moment. There is no reality to Wyatt's ( Sartre ) inference that
      with knowledge he or everyone else has free will/choice in the instant of a moment. You
      need to experience personal understanding, knowing what the words mean in action. And
      I don't think that is possible without confronting or standing up to the voices ( or the
      external human symbols) that have said real words that reinforce the voices inside that tell
      one is less than a person. Yes I know this post was long enough long ago but it isn't the
      easiest to talk about real life stuff.

      Now some will say that their was no philosophical substance to the above
      discussion but I would disagree because to me it's about ones attempt to define or
      understand ones experience. And most importantly attempting to not just words of
      someone else which is definitely easier but to use my own words which is hard and may
      not make sense for all that that read this. I will attempt to define my experience with what
      the only tools that I am aware of at this time and for me those are the feelings about
      thoughts and the thoughts about my feelings. I would of thought that I could get closer to
      C.S.Wyatt since he make a focus on Continental or Experiential Philosophy. As I have read
      the below statement in his own words from his web site I feel a connection to it but I don't
      see anything from his particular writings that scream out any movements of the
      Continetal. I know and feel shared experience with other people and that was always and
      still is my goal at this web site..........

      'Continental movements are sometimes referred to as experiential because they are
      concerned with the experiences of the individual. How one person experiences life is
      unique. Relating to others is possible, but only within the limits of shared experiences.'


      > Jay,
      > You're not understanding quite what I attempted to convey, in rather
      > colourful language. Let me spell it out simply. You do not
      > irritate me or drive me crazy. The sheer volume of your questioning
      > makes me want to hide in my shell a little while. Your tempo is too
      > fast for me. Anyway, both Wil and CSW (the listowner) have
      > suggested that you provide something substantial that might offer a
      > focus for conversation. Every internet group has its own
      > characteristics. This one is centred around the life and writings
      > of various pioneering thinkers and artists, with an emphasis on
      > contemporary development of their ideas, creativity, therapeutic
      > work, or whatever. Feelings are intrinsic to being human, and bound
      > up with our thinking lives, but it is highly arguable whether they
      > represent any kind of claim on another person. If someone doesn't
      > want to answer your questions, and you don't want to back off, it
      > raises further philosophical questions. I mean, we are then in the
      > territory of power, of rights, and so on. If you want to argue
      > about those topics, would it not be far better to keep clear of
      > individually questioning contributors here, try to keep it to your
      > own personal experience, or generalisations, or quote from a
      > published author? When you were questioning me about the extract I
      > posted from Kierkegaard, some of what you said was like an
      > approximation of what he was stating, with the precision that comes
      > of many years of advanced study. You were understanding yourself in
      > your own existence. It took me a while to see that, though. So you
      > never offend me, but you do tend to exhaust me :-). Socratic Athens
      > might have been quite congenial to one of your temperament: those
      > leisured Greeks loved to talk. I know you are also a diligent
      > modern, working in a hospital environment. This list is a very
      > different environment, and I think you need to acknowledge to
      > yourself the difference that makes. Plenty of people aren't suited
      > to the caring professions, and it is reasonable at a philosophic
      > list to require reasons and facts, not simply feelings and
      > questions. There's the general question, too, in daily life, how to
      > preserve the right degree of distance with other people, without
      > actually being cold. It does take time, to get to know anyone.
      > Warmth is an attractive trait, if it does not take offence at any
      > apparent rejection. Well, don't know if I'm wearing down your
      > resistances, but this post is long enough.
      > Louise
      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "James Johnson" <netjaysd@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Louise,
      > >
      > > Too much Introspection irritating ? I'm known that I'm
      > very irritating to you and
      > > drive you crazy also just like you may drive me crazy in how you
      > write at times also but I
      > > will still try to understand you if YOU let me. Please 'Robust'
      > member hold the food in. I
      > > sense that you don't like me to question or ask you to explain or
      > define either the words
      > > that give you life. That is hard for me to understand that because
      > if I feel life in something
      > > I will attempt to convert my language into your language but you
      > have to open the door. It
      > > seems to me that for many here doors aren't used to open and let
      > things in only to open
      > > and let things out. Isn't life/philosohpy all about examining it,
      > opening things up and
      > > taking things apart and looking at the parts intently and
      > wondering. What is so fearful of
      > > opening things up other than not knowing how to put things back
      > together or not
      > > knowing how to get home. I been there with Zen and true it may not
      > be fun, but I still
      > > attempt to do it. But still 'The unexamined life is not worth
      > living ', the Gadfly.
      > > Interesting that you said I have a lovely personality
      > to make the 'robust' members
      > > throw up ? Well I hope they threw up, did you also ? If so there
      > still a lot more food to stuff
      > > down ones mouth. And if our 'robust' member are are so connected
      > to their image of the
      > > independent, intellectual, philosophically mined, in charge not
      > needing and definitely not
      > > sensitive to anything 'Self' than I really in unknown and fearful
      > territory but at least I use to
      > > seeing and smelling vomit. Tell me why did one our 'robust '
      > members read my e mails to
      > > him when he adamantly said he wasn't go to read my abusive writing
      > about him. Go
      > > figure..
      > > Oh yes, so why do you come to this joint ( place ), to
      > share,relate,
      > > study,examine,laugh,get angry,debate or to understand ? So no
      > healing ( therapy ) of our
      > > 'soul' are allowed ? Ok I been warned to do nothing of the
      > above................
      > >
      > >
      > > Jay
      > > >
    • Exist List Moderator
      Often I fail to answer because I m teaching one rhetoric course, preparing a proposal for another, and taking my last few courses for a FUD (or Piled Higher
      Message 39 of 39 , Dec 1, 2006
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        Often I fail to answer because I'm teaching one rhetoric course,
        preparing a proposal for another, and taking my last few courses for
        a FUD (or Piled Higher and Deeper). I also tend not to answer
        messages that are longer than student responses in my courses.

        Poe said that the problem with long poetry was it danced about the
        words, obscuring any intention. I tell my students, just because I
        asked for ten pages doesn't mean you should fill ten pages if you
        have nothing more to express after five. Say what you need to say,
        then STOP speaking or writing!

        Maybe I have a short attention span, too.

        - CSW
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