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Re: [existlist] Wil, 'The question'

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  • eupraxis@aol.com
    If a philosophical position avows everyone s freedom, it couldn t then avow an authoritarian position (which presumably denies that freedom) and be consistent.
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 3, 2006
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      If a philosophical position avows everyone's freedom, it couldn't then avow an authoritarian position (which presumably denies that freedom) and be consistent.

      W

      -----Original Message-----
      From: beldavsa@...
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:17 AM
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Wil, 'The question'


      Wil:

      > Freedom, taken logically beyond just someone's freedom to everyone's
      > freedom, and to the liberation of those in need of it, would of course
      > be anathematic to authoritarianism.

      i don't see this next step to everyone else's freedom covered by
      existentialism within my own very limited theoretical reading or in much
      of the practice within this list. i do see it covered in ethical systems
      that take into account both the laws of nature and human ability to
      reflect in addition to the experience of loving care, which one gets from
      close others, especially in infancy, but also importantly in adolescence
      and throughout life.

      > That said, if one were an authoritarian, one would oneself have existential
      > issues, so I guess one could write a limited kind of existentialism for
      > sadists, bullies, dictators and the like -- but, outside of writing from the
      > Nuremburg trials, I haven't seen anything like that as yet.

      i don't see the usefulness of, for instance, labeling as "totalitarian"
      Fibonacci-patterned decisions, but maybe i'm misreading what you are
      trying to say.

      aija

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Aija Veldre Beldavs
      ... yup, that s the theory, that s the logic. but most people don t spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds. the great social experiments sure
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 4, 2006
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        > If a philosophical position avows everyone's freedom, it couldn't then
        > avow an authoritarian position (which presumably denies that freedom)
        > and be consistent. W

        yup, that's the theory, that's the logic. but most people don't
        spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.

        the great social experiments sure didn't test out in practice the last
        century but they killed millions, displaced millions more, tore up
        communities that had ecologically developed somewhat more gently over
        time, and left a significant number of the descendants of those who
        survived poisoned in spirit as well as body.

        never mind that today it is not considered ethical to experiment on human
        beings without serious limits, such as involving informed consent. in the
        last century, never mind the ethics, it didn't work out for practical
        reasons either to say nothing of some fundamental logical flaws in those
        perfect theories.

        course that doesn't seem to stop a lot of those who have power to change.
        nothing much does cause nature hasn't hit humanity with full force as yet.
        for now some can play at gods accountable to no one.

        aija
      • Christopher Knoepfle
        no ante. The Maestro s Astrology (available at lulu.com)- a 238pp demonstration of Plato s framework of divination, complete with a working example. ... From:
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 4, 2006
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          no ante.

          The Maestro's Astrology (available at lulu.com)- a 238pp demonstration of Plato's framework of divination, complete with a working example.



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@...>
          To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2006 1:16:12 PM
          Subject: Re: [existlist] Wil, 'The question'


          > If a philosophical position avows everyone's freedom, it couldn't then
          > avow an authoritarian position (which presumably denies that freedom)
          > and be consistent. W

          yup, that's the theory, that's the logic. but most people don't
          spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.

          the great social experiments sure didn't test out in practice the last
          century but they killed millions, displaced millions more, tore up
          communities that had ecologically developed somewhat more gently over
          time, and left a significant number of the descendants of those who
          survived poisoned in spirit as well as body.

          never mind that today it is not considered ethical to experiment on human
          beings without serious limits, such as involving informed consent. in the
          last century, never mind the ethics, it didn't work out for practical
          reasons either to say nothing of some fundamental logical flaws in those
          perfect theories.

          course that doesn't seem to stop a lot of those who have power to change.
          nothing much does cause nature hasn't hit humanity with full force as yet.
          for now some can play at gods accountable to no one.

          aija



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eupraxis@aol.com
          aija, [yup, that s the theory, that s the logic. but most people don t spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.] Well, that would explain why it
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 4, 2006
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            aija,

            [yup, that's the theory, that's the logic. but most people don't spend much
            time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.]

            Well, that would explain why it I haven't gone on a date for some time. Gee,
            who could have guessed that it was I who was playing hard to get all along?!?

            [the great social experiments sure didn't test out in practice the last
            century but they killed millions, displaced millions more, tore up
            communities that had ecologically developed somewhat more gently over
            time, and left a significant number of the descendants of those who
            survived poisoned in spirit as well as body.]

            Yes, and Bush says that he has read Camus, as well as a few "Shakespeares"
            this Summer. Theory rarely makes a difference on the practices of despots. But
            we, here, are not despots, so why should we think like them? The logic has to
            count for something. What could the meaning of justice be if that were not so?

            [never mind that today it is not considered ethical to experiment on human
            beings without serious limits, such as involving informed consent. in the
            last century, never mind the ethics, it didn't work out for practical
            reasons either to say nothing of some fundamental logical flaws in those
            perfect theories.

            course that doesn't seem to stop a lot of those who have power to change.
            nothing much does cause nature hasn't hit humanity with full force as yet.
            for now some can play at gods accountable to no one.]

            If I understand you correctly, you have a few nodding heads: Hegel said that
            logic is faith (in his early criticism of Kant's assumption to the contrary);
            Nietzsche said that it is "optimism". There is a true, but cold, insight in
            what you say here. But what are WE to do?

            Deconstruction was a failure precisely because it undercut the requirement,
            even of its critics, to be intellectually ("logocentrically) honest. A bad
            move, I think. Just because we know Cartesian expectations to have been
            overweening shouldn't lead us to any resignation.

            Wil


            In a message dated 11/4/06 1:20:22 PM, beldavsa@... writes:


            > yup, that's the theory, that's the logic. but most people don't
            > spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.
            >
            > the great social experiments sure didn't test out in practice the last
            > century but they killed millions, displaced millions more, tore up
            > communities that had ecologically developed somewhat more gently over
            > time, and left a significant number of the descendants of those who
            > survived poisoned in spirit as well as body.
            >
            > never mind that today it is not considered ethical to experiment on human
            > beings without serious limits, such as involving informed consent. in the
            > last century, never mind the ethics, it didn't work out for practical
            > reasons either to say nothing of some fundamental logical flaws in those
            > perfect theories.
            >
            > course that doesn't seem to stop a lot of those who have power to change.
            > nothing much does cause nature hasn't hit humanity with full force as yet.
            > for now some can play at gods accountable to no one.
            >
            > aija
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Johnson
            Wil, How do you define radical freedom ? How would your individual ( subjective ) expression of freedom/choice not be anathematic to my individual ( subjective
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 9, 2006
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              Wil,

              How do you define radical freedom ? How would your individual ( subjective )
              expression of freedom/choice not be anathematic to my individual ( subjective )
              expression of my freedom/choice ? ?
              With subjectivism being a center point in Extentialism, how and who decides what
              subjective view is ' more' correct between us or a large group ? ? If you or me were in
              conflict as to what is the right interpretation or what the correct actions to take, don't you
              think the ' I am whatever I am ' would sprout authoriatarinism ? Because you did
              mentioned that due to the encouragement of radical freedom in Existentialism,
              authoritarianism would/should be anathematic to Existentialism. Do we have
              responsiblities between us ?
              > And again with subjectivity being the viewpoint of understanding reality, how
              can ' academic formulations' be expressed as deeds/actions and not just words or
              opinions ? And with the desire to open the philosophical discussion to the public at large
              what is the practical value of 'academic' discussions to the public at large ? Academia
              seems anathematic to generalities.

              Jay
              > Jay,
              >
              > Existentialism, in its 'academic' and literary formulations (which is always
              > where I am coming from, it seems), was a public discourse, nevertheless. By
              > public I mean one that sought to open philosophical discussion to
              > humanity-at-large. (This was especially true in the case of Sartre.) As such, it was
              > inherently a liberal-humanist discourse, a leftist one, that had at its base the
              > concept of radical freedom. Freedom, taken logically beyond just someone's freedom
              > to everyone's freedom, and to the liberation of those in need of it, would of
              > course be anathematic to authoritarianism.
              >
              > That said, if one were an authoritarian, one would oneself have existential
              > issues, so I guess one could write a limited kind of existentialism for
              > sadists, bullies, dictators and the like -- but, outside of writing from the
              > Nuremburg trials, I haven't seen anything like that as yet.
              >
              > Wil
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 11/3/06 12:24:09 AM, netjaysd@... writes:
              >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Wil,
              > >
              > > The original question to Louise was 'Authoritarianism is incompatible with
              > > Extentialism, how or why not ?'
              > > Jay
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • eupraxis@aol.com
              [How would your individual (subjective) expression of freedom/choice not be anathematic to my individual (subjective) expression of my freedom/choice?] Maybe
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 9, 2006
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                [How would your individual (subjective) expression of freedom/choice not be
                anathematic to my individual (subjective) expression of my freedom/choice?]

                Maybe it would. Life has no guarantees.

                [With subjectivism being a center point in Existentialism, how and who
                decides what
                subjective view is ' more' correct between us or a large group?]

                There is no automatic answer. Philosophy, or in this case Existentialism in
                particular, is a large body of writing that, over the span of time, has built
                up arguments and points of view, some of them diverse. No one ever said that
                anyone could learn to be an absolute or perfect arbiter. But because there is no
                transcendental canon of truth doesn't mean that one should have no sense of
                value at all.

                [If you or me were in conflict as to what is the right interpretation or what
                the correct actions to take, don't you think the ' I am whatever I am ' would
                sprout authoritarianism?]

                You have me mistaken for someone else. That is not my line.

                [Because you did mentioned that due to the encouragement of radical freedom
                in Existentialism, authoritarianism would/should be anathematic to
                Existentialism.]

                No, you have that wrong, sorry. What I said was, "Freedom, taken logically
                beyond just someone's freedom to everyone's freedom, and to the liberation of
                those in need of it, would of course be anathematic to authoritarianism." It is
                a matter of logical consistency.

                WS


                In a message dated 11/9/06 7:56:45 PM, netjaysd@... writes:


                > Wil,
                >
                > How do you define radical freedom ? How would your individual ( subjective )
                > expression of freedom/choice not be anathematic to my individual (
                > subjective )
                > expression of my freedom/choice ? ?
                > With subjectivism being a center point in Extentialism, how and who decides
                > what
                > subjective view is ' more' correct between us or a large group ? ? If you or
                > me were in
                > conflict as to what is the right interpretation or what the correct actions
                > to take, don't you
                > think the ' I am whatever I am ' would sprout authoriatarinism ? Because you
                > did
                > mentioned that due to the encouragement of radical freedom in
                > Existentialism,
                > authoritarianism would/should be anathematic to Existentialism. Do we have
                > responsiblities between us ?
                > > And again with subjectivity being the viewpoint of understanding reality,
                > how
                > can ' academic formulations' be expressed as deeds/actions and not just
                > words or
                > opinions ? And with the desire to open the philosophical discussion to the
                > public at large
                > what is the practical value of 'academic' discussions to the public at large
                > ? Academia
                > seems anathematic to generalities.
                >
                > Jay
                > > Jay,
                > >
                > > Existentialism, in its 'academic' and literary formulations (which is
                > always
                > > where I am coming from, it seems), was a public discourse, nevertheless.
                > By
                > > public I mean one that sought to open philosophical discussion to
                > > humanity-at- humanity-at-<wbr>large. (This was especially true in the case
                > of Sartre.
                > > inherently a liberal-humanist discourse, a leftist one, that had at its
                > base the
                > > concept of radical freedom. Freedom, taken logically beyond just someone's
                > freedom
                > > to everyone's freedom, and to the liberation of those in need of it, would
                > of
                > > course be anathematic to authoritarianism.
                > >
                > > That said, if one were an authoritarian, one would oneself have
                > existential
                > > issues, so I guess one could write a limited kind of existentialism for
                > > sadists, bullies, dictators and the like -- but, outside of writing from
                > the
                > > Nuremburg trials, I haven't seen anything like that as yet.
                > >
                > > Wil
                > >
                > >
                > > In a message dated 11/3/06 12:24:09 AM, netjaysd@... writes:
                > >
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Wil,
                > > >
                > > > The original question to Louise was 'Authoritarianism is incompatible
                > with
                > > > Extentialism, how or why not ?'
                > > > Jay
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mary
                Forgive my sloth. This past week has been a whirlwind, now nearly past. I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 10, 2006
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                  Forgive my sloth. This past week has been a whirlwind, now nearly past.

                  "I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men
                  have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand
                  years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even
                  when the former is dangerous and the latter safe... I believe that any
                  man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to
                  become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however
                  slight the measure, is bound to become a slave."

                  H. L. Mencken

                  It seems Nietzsche understood this better than either Kierkegaard or
                  Sartre, philosophically speaking. And of course, not much can free us
                  from our own perception(s).

                  Mary

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

                  No, you have that wrong, sorry. What I said was, "Freedom, taken
                  logically beyond just someone's freedom to everyone's freedom, and to
                  the liberation of those in need of it, would of course be anathematic
                  to authoritarianism. It is a matter of logical consistency.
                • louise
                  Mary, What is this about forgiveness? At existlist? My inertia must do battle with your sloth. We need Kierkegaard, to delineate the difference between
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 10, 2006
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                    Mary,

                    What is this about forgiveness? At existlist? My inertia must do
                    battle with your sloth. We need Kierkegaard, to delineate the
                    difference between liberty and freedom, in a more extended field
                    than is attempted by Nietzsche. Still, that assertion is as bald
                    and unsubstantiated as your own. If danger fosters the rescuing
                    power, as Holderlin relates, so may exhaustion summon forth faith.
                    In that process I trust, and wish to make good my claims in the
                    fullness of time. Bill has opined that the present does not respect
                    the past, and I guess that from where I stand such a tendency,
                    though scarce believable to one of my persuasion, represents the
                    kind of despair from which the Dane shows the way to deliverance.

                    Louise

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <agignesthai@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Forgive my sloth. This past week has been a whirlwind, now nearly
                    past.
                    >
                    > "I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that
                    men
                    > have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand
                    > years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free,
                    even
                    > when the former is dangerous and the latter safe... I believe that
                    any
                    > man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to
                    > become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in
                    however
                    > slight the measure, is bound to become a slave."
                    >
                    > H. L. Mencken
                    >
                    > It seems Nietzsche understood this better than either Kierkegaard
                    or
                    > Sartre, philosophically speaking. And of course, not much can free
                    us
                    > from our own perception(s).
                    >
                    > Mary
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                    >
                    > No, you have that wrong, sorry. What I said was, "Freedom, taken
                    > logically beyond just someone's freedom to everyone's freedom, and
                    to
                    > the liberation of those in need of it, would of course be
                    anathematic
                    > to authoritarianism. It is a matter of logical consistency.
                    >
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