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Are not all words threatening ( + - ) to everyone if you don't understand/agree?

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  • James Johnson
    Louise, Thanks for continued interaction. I know we can become clear on this. Can we review the subjective/objective data about me using the word Submission in
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 2, 2006
      Louise,

      Thanks for continued interaction. I know we can become clear on this. Can we
      review the subjective/objective data about me using the word Submission in the Subject
      Title ?
      My first written words to your discuusion about that it's hard for you to see an
      Existentialist being Authoritarin were questions about how do you see existentialist,
      philosophers and I gave my opinions about the words of existentialists, philosophers,
      some of my feelings about dogma writings of the bible or philosophers in general. I ended
      with saying that I hope that you're not that kind of extentialist that I doesn't care about
      explaining herself to people lesser than them ( Me, I feel threaten with not understanding
      someone else ).
      You then wrote that you don't do submission and that strong ego existentialist can
      be balanced. I then wroteand said I never said submission about you, it was about the
      tendency that all of us do ( ME TOO ). Though asking you to clarify where and how did you
      see submission in my writings.
      After I wrote admiring your quick emotional ( thats good ) response to my
      threatening word , submission, to you which I never used in a sentence about you. I said I
      admire your 'Standing up " ( thats good ). Side note, I wish to be able to do what Bill did as
      a ~ 17yr old with his logic teacher, that's clarity in one self.
      Now you write,
      'I don't know you, and was not, in my statement about submission,
      making an attribution in your direction.' I don't understand this sentence since you
      said I was the one who used the word submission. What do you mean ? I'm also confused
      about your sentence 'Your ( MY ) use of the plural pronoun sounds like a threat,
      though not to me' then to who is threatened, I usually don't make threats to
      myself? You mentioned disliking me to 'psycho analysis or get advice'. I never gave you
      advice but when someone gets me a strong opinion I can feel like they are giving me
      advice and that they are making a statement about my psychological makeup which
      doesn't make me feel good at all. Maybe that's what happen with you ? It was not my
      intent/objective in the least to do that because I feel we all have common thoughts and
      feelings ( 'evil'/'good') with a lot with hopes/dreams and needs/desires. As I explained in
      my Subject Title 'Are not all words threatening ( + - ) to everyone if you don't
      understand or agree ? Do you agree,that my and I know other peoples experience.
      Louise, I hope you can hear my sincerity that I not here to threaten you and
      cause you pain since I have a very BIG gentle heart. Sometimes my wife thinks I'm her
      enemy and out to hurt or take something away from her but to do that would hurt or take
      something from myself there would be no benefit for me. If I don't put the effort or
      attempt to relate/connect/understand you I have one less person who can make my life
      feel more complete or connected and that's important to me. I hope thats important to you
      because in my ' judgment for people who don't have a need to be connected to different
      kinds of others are either fearful of others knowing their weaknesses ( keeping a big
      facade of strenght of self interdependence it not fitting their self image ) or they have
      been modeled the connecting behavior.
      To be honest I'm one of these people now attempting to demonstrate more
      understand to myself that I just like everyone else with big personal fears ( It's OK to make
      mistakes, to need things explained to myself and even have evil thought, lust, etc ).
      But I need people like you ( Can' be an island unto myself ) and you need
      people ( hopefully ME ) also to understand since knowledge is gained/promoted ( no one
      originated complete understanding not Jesus or some 'Great Mind' philosophers) and
      experienced by sharing/giving ( SELFISH reasons ) it not by with holding it. One doesn't
      just waking up one morning and understand, but we have the capacity to know and
      understand truth. I disagree with C.S Wyatt here. But I do want to be true to myself so if I
      don't understand something that is written or communicated ( isn't congruent with my
      brain ) I want to stand up also like you. Because I can be threatened by words ( thoughts
      and feelings ) ,also, that make me seen as wrong,stupid and especially unkind.
      I never said that your prose were flat. The reason I don't like them has nothing to
      do with the ' intrinsic limitattion of physics, reference anatomy ', and any problems I have
      with you, have nothing to do with your 'indirectness and the impersonality of this reply'.
      It's just that when I read something that I feel is written in a too complex way or no
      attempt to elaborate either by accident or on purpose that doesn't need to be hided.
      To me poetry is totally like that, I feel it's often a code for only a selective
      few who may understand or may not understand but will just rave about how good it is,
      like a joke they may not understand either but are too embrassed to admit that they don't
      understand and laugh anyway. But the only difference about poetry is the author may be
      dead or may really disclose or not what it means for various reasons/gains. Because Poetry
      is so subjective that means only I who writes it really knows what it means and if I want to
      share or let you into my club of knowing only I can give the key. And even after you give
      me the key and it doesn't still make sense you can fault me for anything from being stupid
      or just don't have the right mind.
      All this can that makes me very mad ( unlike medical science that mixes
      the subjective and the objective elements together ) because I feel less than equal with
      others and I already feel inferior ( just like most humans can easily feel who want to be on
      similar pages ).
      I think the world is so full of words that many people really don't want
      people to understand because that would mean that these people could be equal and a lot
      of these people like feeling on top. As I have siad before there are great advantages to not
      defining yourself, keep behind your cloak. Like Wil (good guy ), and others ( C.SW) , said
      that some of of these concepts are for specialist or philosophers. In my profession or
      speciality ( Intensive care medicine ) I explained to what level my patients or collegues are
      at ( their interest and level of knowledge determines how I explain ) and no way would I
      dumb it down to at level of nothing by saying that ' WELL,THIS TO COMPLEX FOR YOU so
      google it '. I talk as simply as possible and wait for the other to talk and I will come up to a
      new established level. I may have misunderstood Wil ( I may have become
      threatened ).........

      Thanks for your time and attention,

      Jay
      >
      > Louise,
      >
      > I want to clarify my use of the word submission. I admire your
      > defending emotions to some preceived threat. That's a complement I
      > wish onto myself to have such a reflex. Standing up to a threat to
      > yourself.
      > Nowhere did I say or imply you are submissive to anything.
      >
      > ----------------------------------
      >
      > Jay,
      >
      > I don't know you, and was not, in my statement about submission,
      > making an attribution in your direction. Valuing salt as I do, a
      > little astringency may be in place. Your use of the plural pronoun
      > sounds like a threat, though not to me. I do not have to explain
      > that, though I might try if you ask me nicely. My psychiatrists
      > have been humane people, sometimes wise and helpful. The last thing
      > I possibly need at this list is psycho-analysis or advice. Life is
      > life, the internet provides cyberspace. Mystical enough for those
      > as likes it. Sorry that my prose is a little flat, probably the
      > intrinsic limitations of physics, reference anatomy. You won't by
      > your own standards like the indirectness and apparent impersonality
      > of this reply. There are reasons for my approach, believe it or
      > not. Experience reveals.
      >
      > Louise
      >
    • eupraxis@aol.com
      Hello Jay, Sorry, but I do not recall the original question. What was it again? Wil ... From: netjaysd@yahoo.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 2 Nov
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 2, 2006
        Hello Jay,

        Sorry, but I do not recall the original question. What was it again?

        Wil

        -----Original Message-----
        From: netjaysd@...
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 2:11 PM
        Subject: [existlist] Are not all words threatening ( + - ) to everyone if you don't understand/agree?


        Louise,

        Thanks for continued interaction. I know we can become clear on this. Can we
        review the subjective/objective data about me using the word Submission in the Subject
        Title ?
        My first written words to your discuusion about that it's hard for you to see an
        Existentialist being Authoritarin were questions about how do you see existentialist,
        philosophers and I gave my opinions about the words of existentialists, philosophers,
        some of my feelings about dogma writings of the bible or philosophers in general. I ended
        with saying that I hope that you're not that kind of extentialist that I doesn't care about
        explaining herself to people lesser than them ( Me, I feel threaten with not understanding
        someone else ).
        You then wrote that you don't do submission and that strong ego existentialist can
        be balanced. I then wroteand said I never said submission about you, it was about the
        tendency that all of us do ( ME TOO ). Though asking you to clarify where and how did you
        see submission in my writings.
        After I wrote admiring your quick emotional ( thats good ) response to my
        threatening word , submission, to you which I never used in a sentence about you. I said I
        admire your 'Standing up " ( thats good ). Side note, I wish to be able to do what Bill did as
        a ~ 17yr old with his logic teacher, that's clarity in one self.
        Now you write,
        'I don't know you, and was not, in my statement about submission,
        making an attribution in your direction.' I don't understand this sentence since you
        said I was the one who used the word submission. What do you mean ? I'm also confused
        about your sentence 'Your ( MY ) use of the plural pronoun sounds like a threat,
        though not to me' then to who is threatened, I usually don't make threats to
        myself? You mentioned disliking me to 'psycho analysis or get advice'. I never gave you
        advice but when someone gets me a strong opinion I can feel like they are giving me
        advice and that they are making a statement about my psychological makeup which
        doesn't make me feel good at all. Maybe that's what happen with you ? It was not my
        intent/objective in the least to do that because I feel we all have common thoughts and
        feelings ( 'evil'/'good') with a lot with hopes/dreams and needs/desires. As I explained in
        my Subject Title 'Are not all words threatening ( + - ) to everyone if you don't
        understand or agree ? Do you agree,that my and I know other peoples experience.
        Louise, I hope you can hear my sincerity that I not here to threaten you and
        cause you pain since I have a very BIG gentle heart. Sometimes my wife thinks I'm her
        enemy and out to hurt or take something away from her but to do that would hurt or take
        something from myself there would be no benefit for me. If I don't put the effort or
        attempt to relate/connect/understand you I have one less person who can make my life
        feel more complete or connected and that's important to me. I hope thats important to you
        because in my ' judgment for people who don't have a need to be connected to different
        kinds of others are either fearful of others knowing their weaknesses ( keeping a big
        facade of strenght of self interdependence it not fitting their self image ) or they have
        been modeled the connecting behavior.
        To be honest I'm one of these people now attempting to demonstrate more
        understand to myself that I just like everyone else with big personal fears ( It's OK to make
        mistakes, to need things explained to myself and even have evil thought, lust, etc ).
        But I need people like you ( Can' be an island unto myself ) and you need
        people ( hopefully ME ) also to understand since knowledge is gained/promoted ( no one
        originated complete understanding not Jesus or some 'Great Mind' philosophers) and
        experienced by sharing/giving ( SELFISH reasons ) it not by with holding it. One doesn't
        just waking up one morning and understand, but we have the capacity to know and
        understand truth. I disagree with C.S Wyatt here. But I do want to be true to myself so if I
        don't understand something that is written or communicated ( isn't congruent with my
        brain ) I want to stand up also like you. Because I can be threatened by words ( thoughts
        and feelings ) ,also, that make me seen as wrong,stupid and especially unkind.
        I never said that your prose were flat. The reason I don't like them has nothing to
        do with the ' intrinsic limitattion of physics, reference anatomy ', and any problems I have
        with you, have nothing to do with your 'indirectness and the impersonality of this reply'.
        It's just that when I read something that I feel is written in a too complex way or no
        attempt to elaborate either by accident or on purpose that doesn't need to be hided.
        To me poetry is totally like that, I feel it's often a code for only a selective
        few who may understand or may not understand but will just rave about how good it is,
        like a joke they may not understand either but are too embrassed to admit that they don't
        understand and laugh anyway. But the only difference about poetry is the author may be
        dead or may really disclose or not what it means for various reasons/gains. Because Poetry
        is so subjective that means only I who writes it really knows what it means and if I want to
        share or let you into my club of knowing only I can give the key. And even after you give
        me the key and it doesn't still make sense you can fault me for anything from being stupid
        or just don't have the right mind.
        All this can that makes me very mad ( unlike medical science that mixes
        the subjective and the objective elements together ) because I feel less than equal with
        others and I already feel inferior ( just like most humans can easily feel who want to be on
        similar pages ).
        I think the world is so full of words that many people really don't want
        people to understand because that would mean that these people could be equal and a lot
        of these people like feeling on top. As I have siad before there are great advantages to not
        defining yourself, keep behind your cloak. Like Wil (good guy ), and others ( C.SW) , said
        that some of of these concepts are for specialist or philosophers. In my profession or
        speciality ( Intensive care medicine ) I explained to what level my patients or collegues are
        at ( their interest and level of knowledge determines how I explain ) and no way would I
        dumb it down to at level of nothing by saying that ' WELL,THIS TO COMPLEX FOR YOU so
        google it '. I talk as simply as possible and wait for the other to talk and I will come up to a
        new established level. I may have misunderstood Wil ( I may have become
        threatened ).........

        Thanks for your time and attention,

        Jay
        >
        > Louise,
        >
        > I want to clarify my use of the word submission. I admire your
        > defending emotions to some preceived threat. That's a complement I
        > wish onto myself to have such a reflex. Standing up to a threat to
        > yourself.
        > Nowhere did I say or imply you are submissive to anything.
        >
        > ----------------------------------
        >
        > Jay,
        >
        > I don't know you, and was not, in my statement about submission,
        > making an attribution in your direction. Valuing salt as I do, a
        > little astringency may be in place. Your use of the plural pronoun
        > sounds like a threat, though not to me. I do not have to explain
        > that, though I might try if you ask me nicely. My psychiatrists
        > have been humane people, sometimes wise and helpful. The last thing
        > I possibly need at this list is psycho-analysis or advice. Life is
        > life, the internet provides cyberspace. Mystical enough for those
        > as likes it. Sorry that my prose is a little flat, probably the
        > intrinsic limitations of physics, reference anatomy. You won't by
        > your own standards like the indirectness and apparent impersonality
        > of this reply. There are reasons for my approach, believe it or
        > not. Experience reveals.
        >
        > Louise
        >


        ________________________________________________________________________
        Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • James Johnson
        Wil, The original question to Louise was Authoritarianism is incompatible with Extentialism, how or why not ? Jay ... understand/agree? ... ended ...
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 2, 2006
          Wil,

          The original question to Louise was 'Authoritarianism is incompatible with
          Extentialism, how or why not ?'
          Jay

          >
          > Hello Jay,
          >
          > Sorry, but I do not recall the original question. What was it again?
          >
          > Wil
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: netjaysd@...
          > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 2:11 PM
          > Subject: [existlist] Are not all words threatening ( + - ) to everyone if you don't
          understand/agree?
          >
          >
          > Louise,
          >
          > Thanks for continued interaction. I know we can become clear on this. Can we
          > review the subjective/objective data about me using the word Submission in the Subject
          > Title ?
          > My first written words to your discuusion about that it's hard for you to see an
          > Existentialist being Authoritarin were questions about how do you see existentialist,
          > philosophers and I gave my opinions about the words of existentialists, philosophers,
          > some of my feelings about dogma writings of the bible or philosophers in general. I
          ended
          > with saying that I hope that you're not that kind of extentialist that I doesn't care about
          > explaining herself to people lesser than them ( Me, I feel threaten with not
          understanding
          > someone else ).
          > You then wrote that you don't do submission and that strong ego existentialist can
          > be balanced. I then wroteand said I never said submission about you, it was about the
          > tendency that all of us do ( ME TOO ). Though asking you to clarify where and how did
          you
          > see submission in my writings.
          > After I wrote admiring your quick emotional ( thats good ) response to my
          > threatening word , submission, to you which I never used in a sentence about you. I
          said I
          > admire your 'Standing up " ( thats good ). Side note, I wish to be able to do what Bill did
          as
          > a ~ 17yr old with his logic teacher, that's clarity in one self.
          > Now you write,
          > 'I don't know you, and was not, in my statement about submission,
          > making an attribution in your direction.' I don't understand this sentence since you
          > said I was the one who used the word submission. What do you mean ? I'm also
          confused
          > about your sentence 'Your ( MY ) use of the plural pronoun sounds like a threat,
          > though not to me' then to who is threatened, I usually don't make threats to
          > myself? You mentioned disliking me to 'psycho analysis or get advice'. I never gave you
          > advice but when someone gets me a strong opinion I can feel like they are giving me
          > advice and that they are making a statement about my psychological makeup which
          > doesn't make me feel good at all. Maybe that's what happen with you ? It was not my
          > intent/objective in the least to do that because I feel we all have common thoughts and
          > feelings ( 'evil'/'good') with a lot with hopes/dreams and needs/desires. As I explained
          in
          > my Subject Title 'Are not all words threatening ( + - ) to everyone if you don't
          > understand or agree ? Do you agree,that my and I know other peoples experience.
          > Louise, I hope you can hear my sincerity that I not here to threaten you and
          > cause you pain since I have a very BIG gentle heart. Sometimes my wife thinks I'm her
          > enemy and out to hurt or take something away from her but to do that would hurt or
          take
          > something from myself there would be no benefit for me. If I don't put the effort or
          > attempt to relate/connect/understand you I have one less person who can make my life
          > feel more complete or connected and that's important to me. I hope thats important to
          you
          > because in my ' judgment for people who don't have a need to be connected to
          different
          > kinds of others are either fearful of others knowing their weaknesses ( keeping a big
          > facade of strenght of self interdependence it not fitting their self image ) or they have
          > been modeled the connecting behavior.
          > To be honest I'm one of these people now attempting to demonstrate more
          > understand to myself that I just like everyone else with big personal fears ( It's OK to
          make
          > mistakes, to need things explained to myself and even have evil thought, lust, etc ).
          > But I need people like you ( Can' be an island unto myself ) and you need
          > people ( hopefully ME ) also to understand since knowledge is gained/promoted ( no
          one
          > originated complete understanding not Jesus or some 'Great Mind' philosophers) and
          > experienced by sharing/giving ( SELFISH reasons ) it not by with holding it. One doesn't
          > just waking up one morning and understand, but we have the capacity to know and
          > understand truth. I disagree with C.S Wyatt here. But I do want to be true to myself so if
          I
          > don't understand something that is written or communicated ( isn't congruent with my
          > brain ) I want to stand up also like you. Because I can be threatened by words
          ( thoughts
          > and feelings ) ,also, that make me seen as wrong,stupid and especially unkind.
          > I never said that your prose were flat. The reason I don't like them has nothing to
          > do with the ' intrinsic limitattion of physics, reference anatomy ', and any problems I
          have
          > with you, have nothing to do with your 'indirectness and the impersonality of this reply'.
          > It's just that when I read something that I feel is written in a too complex way or no
          > attempt to elaborate either by accident or on purpose that doesn't need to be hided.
          > To me poetry is totally like that, I feel it's often a code for only a selective
          > few who may understand or may not understand but will just rave about how good it is,
          > like a joke they may not understand either but are too embrassed to admit that they
          don't
          > understand and laugh anyway. But the only difference about poetry is the author may
          be
          > dead or may really disclose or not what it means for various reasons/gains. Because
          Poetry
          > is so subjective that means only I who writes it really knows what it means and if I want
          to
          > share or let you into my club of knowing only I can give the key. And even after you
          give
          > me the key and it doesn't still make sense you can fault me for anything from being
          stupid
          > or just don't have the right mind.
          > All this can that makes me very mad ( unlike medical science that mixes
          > the subjective and the objective elements together ) because I feel less than equal with
          > others and I already feel inferior ( just like most humans can easily feel who want to be
          on
          > similar pages ).
          > I think the world is so full of words that many people really don't want
          > people to understand because that would mean that these people could be equal and a
          lot
          > of these people like feeling on top. As I have siad before there are great advantages to
          not
          > defining yourself, keep behind your cloak. Like Wil (good guy ), and others ( C.SW) , said
          > that some of of these concepts are for specialist or philosophers. In my profession or
          > speciality ( Intensive care medicine ) I explained to what level my patients or collegues
          are
          > at ( their interest and level of knowledge determines how I explain ) and no way would I
          > dumb it down to at level of nothing by saying that ' WELL,THIS TO COMPLEX FOR YOU
          so
          > google it '. I talk as simply as possible and wait for the other to talk and I will come up
          to a
          > new established level. I may have misunderstood Wil ( I may have become
          > threatened ).........
          >
          > Thanks for your time and attention,
          >
          > Jay
          > >
          > > Louise,
          > >
          > > I want to clarify my use of the word submission. I admire your
          > > defending emotions to some preceived threat. That's a complement I
          > > wish onto myself to have such a reflex. Standing up to a threat to
          > > yourself.
          > > Nowhere did I say or imply you are submissive to anything.
          > >
          > > ----------------------------------
          > >
          > > Jay,
          > >
          > > I don't know you, and was not, in my statement about submission,
          > > making an attribution in your direction. Valuing salt as I do, a
          > > little astringency may be in place. Your use of the plural pronoun
          > > sounds like a threat, though not to me. I do not have to explain
          > > that, though I might try if you ask me nicely. My psychiatrists
          > > have been humane people, sometimes wise and helpful. The last thing
          > > I possibly need at this list is psycho-analysis or advice. Life is
          > > life, the internet provides cyberspace. Mystical enough for those
          > > as likes it. Sorry that my prose is a little flat, probably the
          > > intrinsic limitations of physics, reference anatomy. You won't by
          > > your own standards like the indirectness and apparent impersonality
          > > of this reply. There are reasons for my approach, believe it or
          > > not. Experience reveals.
          > >
          > > Louise
          > >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________________________________________________
          > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free
          access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • eupraxis@aol.com
          Jay, Existentialism, in its academic and literary formulations (which is always where I am coming from, it seems), was a public discourse, nevertheless. By
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 3, 2006
            Jay,

            Existentialism, in its 'academic' and literary formulations (which is always
            where I am coming from, it seems), was a public discourse, nevertheless. By
            public I mean one that sought to open philosophical discussion to
            humanity-at-large. (This was especially true in the case of Sartre.) As such, it was
            inherently a liberal-humanist discourse, a leftist one, that had at its base the
            concept of radical freedom. Freedom, taken logically beyond just someone's freedom
            to everyone's freedom, and to the liberation of those in need of it, would of
            course be anathematic to authoritarianism.

            That said, if one were an authoritarian, one would oneself have existential
            issues, so I guess one could write a limited kind of existentialism for
            sadists, bullies, dictators and the like -- but, outside of writing from the
            Nuremburg trials, I haven't seen anything like that as yet.

            Wil


            In a message dated 11/3/06 12:24:09 AM, netjaysd@... writes:


            >
            >
            >
            > Wil,
            >
            > The original question to Louise was 'Authoritarianism is incompatible with
            > Extentialism, how or why not ?'
            > Jay
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Aija Veldre Beldavs
            ... i don t see this next step to everyone else s freedom covered by existentialism within my own very limited theoretical reading or in much of the practice
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 3, 2006
              Wil:

              > Freedom, taken logically beyond just someone's freedom to everyone's
              > freedom, and to the liberation of those in need of it, would of course
              > be anathematic to authoritarianism.

              i don't see this next step to everyone else's freedom covered by
              existentialism within my own very limited theoretical reading or in much
              of the practice within this list. i do see it covered in ethical systems
              that take into account both the laws of nature and human ability to
              reflect in addition to the experience of loving care, which one gets from
              close others, especially in infancy, but also importantly in adolescence
              and throughout life.

              > That said, if one were an authoritarian, one would oneself have existential
              > issues, so I guess one could write a limited kind of existentialism for
              > sadists, bullies, dictators and the like -- but, outside of writing from the
              > Nuremburg trials, I haven't seen anything like that as yet.

              i don't see the usefulness of, for instance, labeling as "totalitarian"
              Fibonacci-patterned decisions, but maybe i'm misreading what you are
              trying to say.

              aija
            • eupraxis@aol.com
              If a philosophical position avows everyone s freedom, it couldn t then avow an authoritarian position (which presumably denies that freedom) and be consistent.
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 3, 2006
                If a philosophical position avows everyone's freedom, it couldn't then avow an authoritarian position (which presumably denies that freedom) and be consistent.

                W

                -----Original Message-----
                From: beldavsa@...
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 10:17 AM
                Subject: Re: [existlist] Wil, 'The question'


                Wil:

                > Freedom, taken logically beyond just someone's freedom to everyone's
                > freedom, and to the liberation of those in need of it, would of course
                > be anathematic to authoritarianism.

                i don't see this next step to everyone else's freedom covered by
                existentialism within my own very limited theoretical reading or in much
                of the practice within this list. i do see it covered in ethical systems
                that take into account both the laws of nature and human ability to
                reflect in addition to the experience of loving care, which one gets from
                close others, especially in infancy, but also importantly in adolescence
                and throughout life.

                > That said, if one were an authoritarian, one would oneself have existential
                > issues, so I guess one could write a limited kind of existentialism for
                > sadists, bullies, dictators and the like -- but, outside of writing from the
                > Nuremburg trials, I haven't seen anything like that as yet.

                i don't see the usefulness of, for instance, labeling as "totalitarian"
                Fibonacci-patterned decisions, but maybe i'm misreading what you are
                trying to say.

                aija

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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Aija Veldre Beldavs
                ... yup, that s the theory, that s the logic. but most people don t spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds. the great social experiments sure
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 4, 2006
                  > If a philosophical position avows everyone's freedom, it couldn't then
                  > avow an authoritarian position (which presumably denies that freedom)
                  > and be consistent. W

                  yup, that's the theory, that's the logic. but most people don't
                  spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.

                  the great social experiments sure didn't test out in practice the last
                  century but they killed millions, displaced millions more, tore up
                  communities that had ecologically developed somewhat more gently over
                  time, and left a significant number of the descendants of those who
                  survived poisoned in spirit as well as body.

                  never mind that today it is not considered ethical to experiment on human
                  beings without serious limits, such as involving informed consent. in the
                  last century, never mind the ethics, it didn't work out for practical
                  reasons either to say nothing of some fundamental logical flaws in those
                  perfect theories.

                  course that doesn't seem to stop a lot of those who have power to change.
                  nothing much does cause nature hasn't hit humanity with full force as yet.
                  for now some can play at gods accountable to no one.

                  aija
                • Christopher Knoepfle
                  no ante. The Maestro s Astrology (available at lulu.com)- a 238pp demonstration of Plato s framework of divination, complete with a working example. ... From:
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 4, 2006
                    no ante.

                    The Maestro's Astrology (available at lulu.com)- a 238pp demonstration of Plato's framework of divination, complete with a working example.



                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@...>
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2006 1:16:12 PM
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Wil, 'The question'


                    > If a philosophical position avows everyone's freedom, it couldn't then
                    > avow an authoritarian position (which presumably denies that freedom)
                    > and be consistent. W

                    yup, that's the theory, that's the logic. but most people don't
                    spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.

                    the great social experiments sure didn't test out in practice the last
                    century but they killed millions, displaced millions more, tore up
                    communities that had ecologically developed somewhat more gently over
                    time, and left a significant number of the descendants of those who
                    survived poisoned in spirit as well as body.

                    never mind that today it is not considered ethical to experiment on human
                    beings without serious limits, such as involving informed consent. in the
                    last century, never mind the ethics, it didn't work out for practical
                    reasons either to say nothing of some fundamental logical flaws in those
                    perfect theories.

                    course that doesn't seem to stop a lot of those who have power to change.
                    nothing much does cause nature hasn't hit humanity with full force as yet.
                    for now some can play at gods accountable to no one.

                    aija



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eupraxis@aol.com
                    aija, [yup, that s the theory, that s the logic. but most people don t spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.] Well, that would explain why it
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 4, 2006
                      aija,

                      [yup, that's the theory, that's the logic. but most people don't spend much
                      time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.]

                      Well, that would explain why it I haven't gone on a date for some time. Gee,
                      who could have guessed that it was I who was playing hard to get all along?!?

                      [the great social experiments sure didn't test out in practice the last
                      century but they killed millions, displaced millions more, tore up
                      communities that had ecologically developed somewhat more gently over
                      time, and left a significant number of the descendants of those who
                      survived poisoned in spirit as well as body.]

                      Yes, and Bush says that he has read Camus, as well as a few "Shakespeares"
                      this Summer. Theory rarely makes a difference on the practices of despots. But
                      we, here, are not despots, so why should we think like them? The logic has to
                      count for something. What could the meaning of justice be if that were not so?

                      [never mind that today it is not considered ethical to experiment on human
                      beings without serious limits, such as involving informed consent. in the
                      last century, never mind the ethics, it didn't work out for practical
                      reasons either to say nothing of some fundamental logical flaws in those
                      perfect theories.

                      course that doesn't seem to stop a lot of those who have power to change.
                      nothing much does cause nature hasn't hit humanity with full force as yet.
                      for now some can play at gods accountable to no one.]

                      If I understand you correctly, you have a few nodding heads: Hegel said that
                      logic is faith (in his early criticism of Kant's assumption to the contrary);
                      Nietzsche said that it is "optimism". There is a true, but cold, insight in
                      what you say here. But what are WE to do?

                      Deconstruction was a failure precisely because it undercut the requirement,
                      even of its critics, to be intellectually ("logocentrically) honest. A bad
                      move, I think. Just because we know Cartesian expectations to have been
                      overweening shouldn't lead us to any resignation.

                      Wil


                      In a message dated 11/4/06 1:20:22 PM, beldavsa@... writes:


                      > yup, that's the theory, that's the logic. but most people don't
                      > spend much time in sheltered academic toy logic worlds.
                      >
                      > the great social experiments sure didn't test out in practice the last
                      > century but they killed millions, displaced millions more, tore up
                      > communities that had ecologically developed somewhat more gently over
                      > time, and left a significant number of the descendants of those who
                      > survived poisoned in spirit as well as body.
                      >
                      > never mind that today it is not considered ethical to experiment on human
                      > beings without serious limits, such as involving informed consent. in the
                      > last century, never mind the ethics, it didn't work out for practical
                      > reasons either to say nothing of some fundamental logical flaws in those
                      > perfect theories.
                      >
                      > course that doesn't seem to stop a lot of those who have power to change.
                      > nothing much does cause nature hasn't hit humanity with full force as yet.
                      > for now some can play at gods accountable to no one.
                      >
                      > aija
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • James Johnson
                      Wil, How do you define radical freedom ? How would your individual ( subjective ) expression of freedom/choice not be anathematic to my individual ( subjective
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 9, 2006
                        Wil,

                        How do you define radical freedom ? How would your individual ( subjective )
                        expression of freedom/choice not be anathematic to my individual ( subjective )
                        expression of my freedom/choice ? ?
                        With subjectivism being a center point in Extentialism, how and who decides what
                        subjective view is ' more' correct between us or a large group ? ? If you or me were in
                        conflict as to what is the right interpretation or what the correct actions to take, don't you
                        think the ' I am whatever I am ' would sprout authoriatarinism ? Because you did
                        mentioned that due to the encouragement of radical freedom in Existentialism,
                        authoritarianism would/should be anathematic to Existentialism. Do we have
                        responsiblities between us ?
                        > And again with subjectivity being the viewpoint of understanding reality, how
                        can ' academic formulations' be expressed as deeds/actions and not just words or
                        opinions ? And with the desire to open the philosophical discussion to the public at large
                        what is the practical value of 'academic' discussions to the public at large ? Academia
                        seems anathematic to generalities.

                        Jay
                        > Jay,
                        >
                        > Existentialism, in its 'academic' and literary formulations (which is always
                        > where I am coming from, it seems), was a public discourse, nevertheless. By
                        > public I mean one that sought to open philosophical discussion to
                        > humanity-at-large. (This was especially true in the case of Sartre.) As such, it was
                        > inherently a liberal-humanist discourse, a leftist one, that had at its base the
                        > concept of radical freedom. Freedom, taken logically beyond just someone's freedom
                        > to everyone's freedom, and to the liberation of those in need of it, would of
                        > course be anathematic to authoritarianism.
                        >
                        > That said, if one were an authoritarian, one would oneself have existential
                        > issues, so I guess one could write a limited kind of existentialism for
                        > sadists, bullies, dictators and the like -- but, outside of writing from the
                        > Nuremburg trials, I haven't seen anything like that as yet.
                        >
                        > Wil
                        >
                        >
                        > In a message dated 11/3/06 12:24:09 AM, netjaysd@... writes:
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Wil,
                        > >
                        > > The original question to Louise was 'Authoritarianism is incompatible with
                        > > Extentialism, how or why not ?'
                        > > Jay
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • eupraxis@aol.com
                        [How would your individual (subjective) expression of freedom/choice not be anathematic to my individual (subjective) expression of my freedom/choice?] Maybe
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 9, 2006
                          [How would your individual (subjective) expression of freedom/choice not be
                          anathematic to my individual (subjective) expression of my freedom/choice?]

                          Maybe it would. Life has no guarantees.

                          [With subjectivism being a center point in Existentialism, how and who
                          decides what
                          subjective view is ' more' correct between us or a large group?]

                          There is no automatic answer. Philosophy, or in this case Existentialism in
                          particular, is a large body of writing that, over the span of time, has built
                          up arguments and points of view, some of them diverse. No one ever said that
                          anyone could learn to be an absolute or perfect arbiter. But because there is no
                          transcendental canon of truth doesn't mean that one should have no sense of
                          value at all.

                          [If you or me were in conflict as to what is the right interpretation or what
                          the correct actions to take, don't you think the ' I am whatever I am ' would
                          sprout authoritarianism?]

                          You have me mistaken for someone else. That is not my line.

                          [Because you did mentioned that due to the encouragement of radical freedom
                          in Existentialism, authoritarianism would/should be anathematic to
                          Existentialism.]

                          No, you have that wrong, sorry. What I said was, "Freedom, taken logically
                          beyond just someone's freedom to everyone's freedom, and to the liberation of
                          those in need of it, would of course be anathematic to authoritarianism." It is
                          a matter of logical consistency.

                          WS


                          In a message dated 11/9/06 7:56:45 PM, netjaysd@... writes:


                          > Wil,
                          >
                          > How do you define radical freedom ? How would your individual ( subjective )
                          > expression of freedom/choice not be anathematic to my individual (
                          > subjective )
                          > expression of my freedom/choice ? ?
                          > With subjectivism being a center point in Extentialism, how and who decides
                          > what
                          > subjective view is ' more' correct between us or a large group ? ? If you or
                          > me were in
                          > conflict as to what is the right interpretation or what the correct actions
                          > to take, don't you
                          > think the ' I am whatever I am ' would sprout authoriatarinism ? Because you
                          > did
                          > mentioned that due to the encouragement of radical freedom in
                          > Existentialism,
                          > authoritarianism would/should be anathematic to Existentialism. Do we have
                          > responsiblities between us ?
                          > > And again with subjectivity being the viewpoint of understanding reality,
                          > how
                          > can ' academic formulations' be expressed as deeds/actions and not just
                          > words or
                          > opinions ? And with the desire to open the philosophical discussion to the
                          > public at large
                          > what is the practical value of 'academic' discussions to the public at large
                          > ? Academia
                          > seems anathematic to generalities.
                          >
                          > Jay
                          > > Jay,
                          > >
                          > > Existentialism, in its 'academic' and literary formulations (which is
                          > always
                          > > where I am coming from, it seems), was a public discourse, nevertheless.
                          > By
                          > > public I mean one that sought to open philosophical discussion to
                          > > humanity-at- humanity-at-<wbr>large. (This was especially true in the case
                          > of Sartre.
                          > > inherently a liberal-humanist discourse, a leftist one, that had at its
                          > base the
                          > > concept of radical freedom. Freedom, taken logically beyond just someone's
                          > freedom
                          > > to everyone's freedom, and to the liberation of those in need of it, would
                          > of
                          > > course be anathematic to authoritarianism.
                          > >
                          > > That said, if one were an authoritarian, one would oneself have
                          > existential
                          > > issues, so I guess one could write a limited kind of existentialism for
                          > > sadists, bullies, dictators and the like -- but, outside of writing from
                          > the
                          > > Nuremburg trials, I haven't seen anything like that as yet.
                          > >
                          > > Wil
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > In a message dated 11/3/06 12:24:09 AM, netjaysd@... writes:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Wil,
                          > > >
                          > > > The original question to Louise was 'Authoritarianism is incompatible
                          > with
                          > > > Extentialism, how or why not ?'
                          > > > Jay
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mary
                          Forgive my sloth. This past week has been a whirlwind, now nearly past. I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men have invented, at
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 10, 2006
                            Forgive my sloth. This past week has been a whirlwind, now nearly past.

                            "I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that men
                            have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand
                            years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free, even
                            when the former is dangerous and the latter safe... I believe that any
                            man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to
                            become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however
                            slight the measure, is bound to become a slave."

                            H. L. Mencken

                            It seems Nietzsche understood this better than either Kierkegaard or
                            Sartre, philosophically speaking. And of course, not much can free us
                            from our own perception(s).

                            Mary

                            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@... wrote:

                            No, you have that wrong, sorry. What I said was, "Freedom, taken
                            logically beyond just someone's freedom to everyone's freedom, and to
                            the liberation of those in need of it, would of course be anathematic
                            to authoritarianism. It is a matter of logical consistency.
                          • louise
                            Mary, What is this about forgiveness? At existlist? My inertia must do battle with your sloth. We need Kierkegaard, to delineate the difference between
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 10, 2006
                              Mary,

                              What is this about forgiveness? At existlist? My inertia must do
                              battle with your sloth. We need Kierkegaard, to delineate the
                              difference between liberty and freedom, in a more extended field
                              than is attempted by Nietzsche. Still, that assertion is as bald
                              and unsubstantiated as your own. If danger fosters the rescuing
                              power, as Holderlin relates, so may exhaustion summon forth faith.
                              In that process I trust, and wish to make good my claims in the
                              fullness of time. Bill has opined that the present does not respect
                              the past, and I guess that from where I stand such a tendency,
                              though scarce believable to one of my persuasion, represents the
                              kind of despair from which the Dane shows the way to deliverance.

                              Louise

                              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <agignesthai@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Forgive my sloth. This past week has been a whirlwind, now nearly
                              past.
                              >
                              > "I believe that liberty is the only genuinely valuable thing that
                              men
                              > have invented, at least in the field of government, in a thousand
                              > years. I believe that it is better to be free than to be not free,
                              even
                              > when the former is dangerous and the latter safe... I believe that
                              any
                              > man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to
                              > become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in
                              however
                              > slight the measure, is bound to become a slave."
                              >
                              > H. L. Mencken
                              >
                              > It seems Nietzsche understood this better than either Kierkegaard
                              or
                              > Sartre, philosophically speaking. And of course, not much can free
                              us
                              > from our own perception(s).
                              >
                              > Mary
                              >
                              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, eupraxis@ wrote:
                              >
                              > No, you have that wrong, sorry. What I said was, "Freedom, taken
                              > logically beyond just someone's freedom to everyone's freedom, and
                              to
                              > the liberation of those in need of it, would of course be
                              anathematic
                              > to authoritarianism. It is a matter of logical consistency.
                              >
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