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Re: [existlist] Authoritarianism is incompatible with Extentialism, how or why not ?

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  • Aija Veldre Beldavs
    ... i don t see existentialism, as i don t see postmodernism, in and by itself sufficient ground for being a moral, ethical person. like Jay, i can see
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 28, 2006
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      > How do you see a philosophy that prides itself in it's subjectiveness (
      > your 'now' existence reigns over your 'past' bondage )above all else not
      > being furtile ground for human disrespect ? I am whatever I choose and
      > will to be. Being independent beings with freedom of choice and will,
      > not accountable to anyone let only some supreme being, God. What power
      > in becoming God of your individual universe. Sartre being a communist,
      > perfect example that his words meant nothing in action. Jay

      >> I also see Existentialism as completely incompatible with
      >> Authoritarianism. Mary

      i don't see existentialism, as i don't see postmodernism, in and by itself
      sufficient ground for being a moral, ethical person. like Jay, i can see
      existentialism going any which way, including totalitarian, as
      demonstrated historically by existentialist founding fathers having such
      totalitarian political connections.

      an inference was made by a number of ancient peoples in different parts of
      the world, including the Greek Stoics, Epicureans as well as Ecclesiastes/
      Qohelet that at least on the finite human level truth is that there is
      none. (the pagan latvian daina-songs use the metaphor of not seeing but
      sensing behind "nine leaves" the shining sky deity Dievs /sanskrit Dyaus,
      similar cognates in other IE languages/ that with Christian influence came
      to stand for God /even as the sky god doesn't fully acquire supreme god
      status in the daina corpus/ and childishly wonder what is God when all
      humans will die /does God have meaning if there is no one to
      conceptualize?/.

      if there is no truth and no other God but that which different human
      traditions construct, then the development of ethical thought has to go on
      beyond the bare insight of existentialism and postmodernism as indeed it
      did historically with those who had similar insights much earlier and in
      different parts of the world than the last century's response to what was
      happening with the rise of totalitarianism (Communism, Fascism) in Europe.

      maybe those in the group who have studied these traditions can share how
      these either apply or inspire today? (didn't Louise say she was a
      classics expert, so maybe she'd have something to say about the Stoics and
      Epicureans? - recently went to a medievalist specialist presentation that
      talked a lot why they argued death was not to be rationally feared.) or,
      because individuality is so totally stressed here apart from community in
      this list, maybe share what does work for each in order to keep on living
      constructively (i know there are artists in the list, but what about
      science?).

      aija
    • Aija Veldre Beldavs
      ... sorry, now and then i do go to medievalist lectures as i can, but this one was almost certainly within the ancient studies series at IU. to be specific,
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 28, 2006
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        > Stoics and Epicureans? - recently went to a medievalist specialist
        > presentation that talked a lot why they argued death was not to be
        > rationally feared.)

        sorry, now and then i do go to medievalist lectures as i can, but this one
        was almost certainly within the ancient studies series at IU. to be
        specific, the scholar was Christopher Gill (University of Exeter, UK)
        whose talk was "Concepts of Self and Therapy in Hellenistic and Roman
        Philosophy." as i understood it, the scholar interpreted/ translated
        Epictetus to be saying: death was not to be rationally feared because
        death robs one of personal existence (illum cui) which is associated with
        anguish and suffering [about existence among other things i suppose] as it
        did not exist before the person came into being.

        aija
      • Mary
        ... wrote: ...individuality is so totally stressed here apart from community in this list... There remains a palpable tension between a solitary existence and
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 28, 2006
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          --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@...>
          wrote:

          ...individuality is so totally stressed here apart from community in
          this list...

          There remains a palpable tension between a solitary existence and the
          need for human companionship. The membrane between community and the
          individual is there for a reason, survival. Theories about solidarity
          usually lead to a totalitarian mindset which crushes creative impulses,
          wild or domestic, and any hope for evolution.

          "I've seen a city." Jeremiah Johnson

          Mary
        • Aija Veldre Beldavs
          ... hmm...would you say that about the historical significance of the down-to-earth practice of the nonviolent Polish social worker movement Solidarnosc?:)
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 28, 2006
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            > Theories about solidarity usually lead to a totalitarian mindset which
            > crushes creative impulses, wild or domestic, and any hope for evolution.
            > Mary

            hmm...would you say that about the historical significance of the
            down-to-earth practice of the nonviolent Polish social worker movement
            Solidarnosc?:)

            could you elaborate which fields of science on social group dynamics lead
            to such a dramatic conclusion? my experience (i understand this list also
            has a specialist in psychology, so maybe some input from the field?), is
            decrease of the probability of anti-social behavior of children who are
            raised among loving people, a society that respects their needs but also
            provides a reality check that others also have needs. my experience is
            that as one matures, he is more likely to to broaden the circle to which
            he feels internalized responsibility and also more likely to challenge
            abuse as he comes across it.

            if a theory doesn't resonate with my experience and isn't evidence-based,
            it will take much more to convince me. too many theories are acted upon
            in living practice even though they are imperialistic, improperly applied,
            overextended, or just plain wrong on another level. theories often have
            fatal flaws, like the willingness of Communist theory to sacrifice fellow
            human beings for a "greater cause," so they can have evil practical
            consequences since many people don't understand limits to theory.

            i see no inherent reason why "solidarity" can't and hasn't been an open
            system, learning, evolving, self-correcting, nor an inherent reason why
            "solidarity" can't be used constructively.

            take the example of Charter 77 signed in Helsinki, 1975. by 1977 there
            were 242 signature, not just the great Czech patriot and human being
            Vaclav Havel's. Havel wrote "social life is not a machine built to
            any set of plans known to us." for him Lebenswelt was "the flow of life
            which is always taking us by surprise."

            i think people like Havel are motivated not only by simple survival.
            there are also needs for justice, compassion, and such for which people
            take great risks and have even offered their own lives (rather than
            sacrificing those of others).

            aija
          • bhvwd
            ... in ... the ... the ... solidarity ... impulses, ... fear. They are just overacting in a most juvenile manner. Perhaps cosmic rays are time packets from
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 28, 2006
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              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <agignesthai@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Aija Veldre Beldavs <beldavsa@>
              > wrote:
              >
              > ...individuality is so totally stressed here apart from community
              in
              > this list...
              >
              > There remains a palpable tension between a solitary existence and
              the
              > need for human companionship. The membrane between community and
              the
              > individual is there for a reason, survival. Theories about
              solidarity
              > usually lead to a totalitarian mindset which crushes creative
              impulses,
              > wild or domestic, and any hope for evolution.
              >
              > "I've seen a city." Jeremiah Johnson
              >
              > Mary
              >Mary, I see the authoritarian mind set a reaction to continual
              fear. They are just overacting in a most juvenile manner. Perhaps
              cosmic rays are time packets from Super Novi. They distort the
              space /time continuum proportantly to their energys. An acellerator
              can be a portal , it seems a theoretical baggage the fear of
              temporal distortion. But Ray Bradbury portrays a Jewles Vernon
              world bent and distorted by the mass of a butterfly. Since I know he
              intended the situation as fiction we are theoretically spared that
              senario. The future was plastic but now it is plasma physics. Mrs.
              Robinson slithers in the corner a perfect hologram but the music is
              from the seventies. Stay smart or be dead. Bill
            • Mary
              Who me scared?
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 28, 2006
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                Who me scared?
              • louise
                ... You know me, Mary. I distrust Latin constructions. How did words become weapons? And when? Louise
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 30, 2006
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                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <agignesthai@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Who me scared?
                  >

                  You know me, Mary. I distrust Latin constructions. How did words
                  become weapons? And when? Louise
                • Mary
                  Actually, Louise, it s quite the reverse. Bill s words weren t threatening, and my reaction was sheer bravado in the face of storms on the horizon. Mary
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 30, 2006
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                    Actually, Louise, it's quite the reverse. Bill's words weren't
                    threatening, and my reaction was sheer bravado in the face of storms on
                    the horizon. Mary

                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <agignesthai@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Who me scared?
                    > >
                    >
                    > You know me, Mary. I distrust Latin constructions. How did words
                    > become weapons? And when? Louise
                    >
                  • louise
                    Mary, I accept this statement at face value from you, because you are a truthful person. However, I frequently do not understand specific references within
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 30, 2006
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                      Mary, I accept this statement at face value from you, because you are
                      a truthful person. However, I frequently do not understand specific
                      references within your and other posts, only partly on grounds of
                      nationality, for instance. I was attempting to raise a more general
                      point, about the capacity for deception and hostility built into the
                      very nature of language, created and received by human minds. At
                      existlist we have periodically visited this set of topics. I suppose
                      it draws in relationship between physical and mental realities
                      ("sticks and stones may break my bones, etc.") as well as questions of
                      ethnic and cultural diversity, reflected in linguistic structure, what
                      translation does with that, and attendant implications for communal
                      governance, which involves far more than politics and administration
                      generally. There are scientific, and especially psychiatric,
                      interpretations of what kinds of speaking are acceptable, which
                      sometimes find their way into formal law. Personally I suspect that
                      global warming is caused by fear, mediated by rumour. That, however,
                      is a difficult one to prove. Just throwing out a hypothesis at this
                      stage. Louise

                      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <agignesthai@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Actually, Louise, it's quite the reverse. Bill's words weren't
                      > threatening, and my reaction was sheer bravado in the face of storms
                      on
                      > the horizon. Mary
                      >
                      > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "louise" <hecubatoher@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Mary" <agignesthai@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Who me scared?
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > You know me, Mary. I distrust Latin constructions. How did words
                      > > become weapons? And when? Louise
                      > >
                      >
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