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Re: Sartre & Beauvoir

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  • Trinidad Cruz
    ... wrote: Even the explicators were inauthentic. It s very difficult to be completely honest with others when we are constantly changing, or is it constantly
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 3, 2006
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      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "two_owl_night" <two_owl_night@...>
      wrote:

      "Even the explicators were inauthentic. It's very difficult to be
      completely honest with others when we are constantly changing, or is
      it constantly remaining the same?

      http://grapepress.blogspot.com/2003/11/abstract.html

      I agree with Wil that choice may be based upon pre-determined factors,
      is relative, and contingent. But then why does that make one's choice
      inauthentic or open to judgment? I agree with Dennett's compromise
      (Freedom Evolves) that we are subject to both determinism and free
      will, to the extent that we acknowledge it exists. Some humans are
      adaptive. The third or thousandth time, we might get it right."

      Mary

      Actually this piece is not bad though rambling into mere opinion.

      This is from the introduction and goes to the core of the
      existentialist view - i/e one must have an opinion on this or remain
      consciously inactive and ineffective:

      "In the majority of the passages in their letters, Sartre and de
      Beauvoir remain unclear with regard to whether authenticity is an
      attribute of pre-reflective consciousness or whether, on the other
      hand, authenticity is a project of reflective consciousness."

      If you can sort through this you will arrive at a point of divergence
      in existentialism. You are pretty sharp.

      My opinion is it must spring from pre-reflective consciousness because
      it may not ever be arrived at dialectically; in fact dialectically one
      may only ever end up with abstract rationalism not
      existentialism.(SK's seminal accusation) Sartre fought to grasp this
      in everything he wrote. It is the ultimate question for the
      exsitentialist. And again in certain contexts Dennett is dealing with
      the same question.For Rorty it is a question of pragmatic action and
      conversations between asylums.

      Again I commend your reading skills.

      Trinidad
    • two_owl_night
      Well, Trinidad, from my asylum to yours, thank you. Have a fun & safe holy day. Independence Day is one of the few I observe with any solemnity, hope and
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 3, 2006
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        Well, Trinidad, from my asylum to yours, thank you. Have a fun & safe
        holy day. Independence Day is one of the few I observe with any
        solemnity, hope and celebration. Of course, the next day I feel
        sorely ambilavent about the whole fuss.

        Mary

        --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Trinidad Cruz" <cruzprdb@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "two_owl_night" <two_owl_night@>
        > wrote:
        >
        > "Even the explicators were inauthentic. It's very difficult to be
        > completely honest with others when we are constantly changing, or is
        > it constantly remaining the same?
        >
        > http://grapepress.blogspot.com/2003/11/abstract.html
        >
        > I agree with Wil that choice may be based upon pre-determined
        factors,
        > is relative, and contingent. But then why does that make one's
        choice
        > inauthentic or open to judgment? I agree with Dennett's compromise
        > (Freedom Evolves) that we are subject to both determinism and free
        > will, to the extent that we acknowledge it exists. Some humans are
        > adaptive. The third or thousandth time, we might get it right."
        >
        > Mary
        >
        > Actually this piece is not bad though rambling into mere opinion.
        >
        > This is from the introduction and goes to the core of the
        > existentialist view - i/e one must have an opinion on this or remain
        > consciously inactive and ineffective:
        >
        > "In the majority of the passages in their letters, Sartre and de
        > Beauvoir remain unclear with regard to whether authenticity is an
        > attribute of pre-reflective consciousness or whether, on the other
        > hand, authenticity is a project of reflective consciousness."
        >
        > If you can sort through this you will arrive at a point of
        divergence
        > in existentialism. You are pretty sharp.
        >
        > My opinion is it must spring from pre-reflective consciousness
        because
        > it may not ever be arrived at dialectically; in fact dialectically
        one
        > may only ever end up with abstract rationalism not
        > existentialism.(SK's seminal accusation) Sartre fought to grasp this
        > in everything he wrote. It is the ultimate question for the
        > exsitentialist. And again in certain contexts Dennett is dealing
        with
        > the same question.For Rorty it is a question of pragmatic action and
        > conversations between asylums.
        >
        > Again I commend your reading skills.
        >
        > Trinidad
        >
      • eupraxis@aol.com
        Everything that we do is already highly scripted. Even my words here are in an historically evolved language, itself the synergistic combination of many
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 4, 2006
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          Everything that we do is already highly scripted. Even my words here are in
          an historically evolved language, itself the synergistic combination of many
          histories. The concepts (free will, authenticity) are vestigial remnants of
          European scholasticism and 17th Century materialism, etc., that are ethically and
          politically charged (nature vs nurture, for example) without us even being
          aware of it at any time. Etc.

          This doesn't mean that we cannot make choices. It only shows that our choices
          are always contextual and are therefore 'free or unfree' in a very qualified
          sense.

          In a message dated 7/3/06 9:03:35 AM, two_owl_night@... writes:


          > I agree with Wil that choice may be based upon pre-determined factors,
          > is relative, and contingent. But then why does that make one's choice
          > inauthentic or open to judgment? I agree with Dennett's compromise
          > (Freedom Evolves) that we are subject to both determinism and free
          > will, to the extent that we acknowledge it exists. Some humans are
          > adaptive. The third or thousandth time, we might get it right.
          >
          > Mary
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • two_owl_night
          This is the reason I view existentialism as a foundation or foundational philosophy. I see its tenets as suggestions and possibilities upon which we construct
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 4, 2006
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            This is the reason I view existentialism as a foundation or
            foundational philosophy. I see its tenets as suggestions and
            possibilities upon which we construct our lives. After reading this I
            won't choose between the pre-reflective and reflective explanation,
            which only appears to be a paradox. Does there have to be a
            divergence? We are conscious of our consciousness being conscious,
            and we observe that we are observing and are being observed by
            others. Sartre makes the former a nothingness and the latter a
            hellish mobius. Sartre & Beauvoir demonstrated with their very lives
            the difficulties of concepts such as bad faith and authenticity. If
            their search for these was a search for consistency in action, was
            that valid? Did it fail? Though they desired a certainty (an
            absolute?) obtainable through dialogue, was it a reasonable goal?
            Afterall, within a sincere dialogue, one never knows where it's
            going.

            I find his passage interesting (from the linked material):

            "As a complex concept with many possibilities, Sartre and de Beauvoir
            worked through the idea of authenticity thoroughly throughout their
            dialogue. Authenticity seems, in many interpretations, to be a trait
            only possible in the pre-reflective consciousness. But unreflected,
            spontaneous thought, cannot project itself uniformly through all
            situations, because it fails to achieve the self-consciousness which
            is necessary for projection of consciousness into the future. It is a
            difficult distinction for Sartre and de Beauvoir, and just when the
            latter option seems so clear, their letters betray such an easy
            solution. For example, in January of 1940 Sartre writes to de
            Beauvoir of his personal relationship with his philosophy as
            immediate, on a pre-reflective level, rather than reflective, as we
            have come to understand philosophy under his terms:

            "I was just writing in my notebook today that the philosophy I'm
            writing must be rather moving for others because it's personal. It
            plays a role in my life, protecting me against the melancholy, gloom,
            and sadness of the war, though by now I'm trying neither to protect
            my life after the fact with my philosophy, which would be sleazy, nor
            make my life conform to my philosophy, which would be pedantic,
            instead now philosophy and life have really become one."

            "Now, when Sartre writes this one cannot help but question how this
            could be possible, considering the reflective qualifications for the
            development of philosophy. Life exists as pure spontaneity, as
            unreflected experience. Philosophy, on the other hand, requires
            reflection upon such experience."

            Mary

            --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Trinidad Cruz" <cruzprdb@...>
            wrote:

            > http://grapepress.blogspot.com/2003/11/abstract.html

            This is from the introduction and goes to the core of the
            existentialist view - i/e one must have an opinion on this or remain
            consciously inactive and ineffective:

            "In the majority of the passages in their letters, Sartre and de
            Beauvoir remain unclear with regard to whether authenticity is an
            attribute of pre-reflective consciousness or whether, on the other
            hand, authenticity is a project of reflective consciousness."

            If you can sort through this you will arrive at a point of divergence
            in existentialism ... My opinion is it must spring from pre-
            reflective consciousness because it may not ever be arrived at
            dialectically; in fact dialectically one may only ever end up with
            abstract rationalism not existentialism ... It is the ultimate
            question for the exsitentialist ...
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