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Re: [existlist] Re: the partial and limited view

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  • Albert
    Now Trinidad, It is the least evil system. Besides, greed and counting are an essential components to progress, period, and without it there is no progress.
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 1, 2006
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      Now Trinidad,

      It is the least evil system. Besides, greed and "counting" are an essential
      components to progress, period, and without it there is no progress.

      Albert.




      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Trinidad Cruz" <cruzprdb@...>
      To: <existlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:49 PM
      Subject: [existlist] Re: the partial and limited view


      --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, Exist List Moderator
      <existlist1@...> wrote:

      "I think the fact companies can and do manipulate government laws and
      regulations means the companies cease to be "capitalistic.If you seek
      laws to protect yourself from competition and free market, or seek
      special tax breaks, you are not really practicing capitalism."

      I have always looked at this as a statistical anomaly. Though it
      should be "one man - one vote", with influence peddling and lobbying
      we have a democracy that is weighed out most often only in dollars,
      and one man can deliver thousands of votes. Companies are still
      practicing capitalism when seeking to buy government advantages.
      Bribery and pandering are capitalist activities. A capitalist is not
      compelled to moral or ethical claim and arguments to that effect are
      silly. There is a vast difference between Enron's Lay gang and say
      industrialists like Carnegie and Pullman. Capitalism slipped from any
      ethical postition a long time ago, but then so has every other naive
      view of social organization. I love the mixers. I loved Drexel back in
      the day, and I like Chavez and Citgo selling heating oil for
      forty-five percent of the market price to designated poor communities
      in the US. I think that capitalism is not a theory, not even in a
      mathematical sense. It's just the old need and greed paradigm,
      regardless of how some philosophers have tried to bandwagon it to the
      moral high ground as both the prerequisite and result of freedom.
      Neither is true. Capitalism is a human event in a representational
      view. In my opinion Deleuze has a strange poetic but poignantly
      concise turn on it.If we would really consider capitalism as a
      philosophical theory it would line up rather neatly with a lot of the
      anarchist view; but in the end capitalism is actually not a
      philosophy, actually not a way of life, or even a way of living, just
      a system of counting.

      Trinidad










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    • Exist List Moderator
      ... Actually, it is not silly to call upon the moral imperatives Smith and others said were necessary for true capitalism to survive. Once you lose the moral
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 5, 2006
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        On Jun 01, 2006, at 8:49, Trinidad Cruz wrote:

        > and one man can deliver thousands of votes. Companies are still
        > practicing capitalism when seeking to buy government advantages.
        > Bribery and pandering are capitalist activities. A capitalist is not
        > compelled to moral or ethical claim and arguments to that effect are
        > silly.

        Actually, it is not "silly" to call upon the moral imperatives Smith
        and others said were necessary for true capitalism to survive. Once you
        lose the moral obligations to society and to whatever moral compass you
        have (admitted for Smith and his colleagues this was a Christian
        ethic), then anything becomes possible.

        The loss of morality / ethics is evident, as you admit, in all social
        systems. I certainly would not present any current world leader or
        government as a model of perfection. Ethics are stuck in some
        soft-n-chewy (not my quote) postmodern relativism that refuses to seek
        clarity but rather strives to show how no ethical system is valid
        because all are valid.

        Capitalism is not Enron, unless you consider the notion that Smith was
        correct when he suggested the courts might be the final solution when
        morality and social ethics fail. At least some stockholders are
        starting to use their ownership to challenge executive hubris.

        > I love the mixers. I loved Drexel back in
        > the day, and I like Chavez and Citgo selling heating oil for
        > forty-five percent of the market price to designated poor communities
        > in the US.

        I consider Chavez incredibly dangerous, and increasingly so do his
        neighbors. Unfortunately, generations of corruption supported by the
        Cold War have ruined the political systems of Latin America. The United
        States and Soviet Union did their best to dominate the puppet states,
        depriving the residents of self-determination.

        Now, anyone promising a better life can win for a cycle or two. That
        Caracas is the "most dangerous city in the hemisphere" (Amnesty
        International) doesn't seem to register with Chavez supporters. He will
        eventually use the high crime rate to justify some manner of
        power-grab. We've seen this in Chile, Columbia, and Brazil.

        > concise turn on it.If we would really consider capitalism as a
        > philosophical theory it would line up rather neatly with a lot of the
        > anarchist view; but in the end capitalism is actually not a
        > philosophy, actually not a way of life, or even a way of living, just
        > a system of counting.

        No philosophy works, under this strict notion that you can actually
        implement a pure version of the political or economic. Human nature
        will always interfere. This is why the libertarians and anarchists try
        to limit government -- it has the ultimate power, and the people in
        charge are just people. I don't trust people to do the right thing
        without some manner of public way to cause shame or even humiliation.
        In capitalism, competition is the balancing force, along with the
        notion of complete and honest contractual obligations.

        In "corporatism" (internationalism, or whatever you wish to call it),
        we approach the unholy alliance of government and industry, as was the
        case with fascism and Soviet-style "Communism" we see morphing under
        Putin. China is a more extreme example, but I'm not certain where it
        will evolve. When the government and industry are one, there are no
        checks on power. The leaders of one are the leaders of the other.

        This concerns me right now because when we allow power to become
        centralized, new ideas and even radical rejections of current ideas
        become nearly impossible. No "philosophy" except self-focused,
        inner-peace type solutions become viable when the individual is
        stripped of power.

        Then, you have the existentialism of Frankl or the absurdism of Camus.
        This is where I often turn for reading, and see no conflict with their
        notions and my dream of an individual-based society. I know it is a
        dream because most people... we know what they are like. They aren't
        about to go without handouts or leaders to follow.

        - C. S. Wyatt
        I am what I am at this moment, not what I was and certainly not all
        that I shall be.
        http://www.tameri.com - Tameri Guide for Writers
        http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist - The Existential Primer
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