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flockless

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  • louise
    ~ This is what the professors and preachers prattle about; they try to prove that God is personal, and this is what makes the congregation happy. I am not
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 1, 2006
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      ~ This is what the professors and preachers prattle about; they try to
      prove that God is personal, and this is what makes the congregation
      happy.
      I am not going to speak here about how ridiculous it is to want to
      prove it, for it cannot be "proved" - it must be believed. .....
      ......
      No, God is indeed personal, but it still does not follow that he is
      straightway personal for you. Take a human relationship: a superior
      personality is certainly personal, but does he not have it in his
      power to be personal in relation to the inferior one or to relate
      objectively to him, although it is still true that the superior one is
      and remains personal.
      So also with God. Assuredly, he is personal, but whether he will be
      that toward the individual depends on whether it so pleases God. It
      is the grace of God if he will be personal in his relation to you; and
      if you throw away his grace, he punishes you by relating to you
      objectively. And in this sense it can be said that the world (despite
      all proofs!) does not have a personal God; for the world does not
      please God, and his punishment is to relate objectively to it,
      although he nevertheless remains just as fully personal.
      But while the preachers and professors prattle to the millions about
      proofs of the personality of God, the truth is that long ago there
      ceased to be men capable of bearing the pressure and the weight of
      having a personal God. There is something jolting and soul-stirring
      in the truthfulness with which a patriarch or an apostle talks about
      dying weary of life, for truly having to do with a personal God can
      certainly make a man weary. Figuratively speaking, a workhorse, even
      if it has worked hard at the plow, has no inkling of what it means to
      be as tired as is a trained performing horse when it has been ridden. -
      Alas, even if my life did not otherwise have enough torments and
      sufferings, this alone would be sufficient, this loathing which comes
      over me every time I think of the nonsense on which men waste their
      time and their lives. It would certainly be loathsome to think of men
      living on filth instead of food, eating vermin, etc. - but it is just
      as loathsome to think that men buy and pay an exorbitant price (to the
      preachers and professors) for nonsense - and live happily on it. ~

      Soren Kierkegaard. [not dated, 1854]
      "Journals and Papers", tr. Hong & Hong, Indiana U.P. 1970.

      It's maybe a response, Bill, rather than an answer. I have faith in
      the power of responding. It offers hope for conversation, trust,
      genuine argument. Not that such would be new phenomena at existlist,
      but, oh, how we have wandered. Louise
    • Albert
      Louise Just because you re paranoid, don t mean they re not after you... Those who pay professors and preachers exorbitant fees for mind numbing crap that
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 2, 2006
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        Louise

        Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you...
        Those who pay professors and preachers exorbitant fees for mind numbing crap that satisfies a hierarchy of needs, probably based on emotional disturbances of some type, might be viewed to be pathetic to us. However, the problem I have with the Kierkergaard's and Freud's of the world is they use this to substantiate their argument that God does not exist. To say that the believers are pathetic, actually means nothing in relation to the existence or non-existence of God.

        Might there be a better argument out there than pop-psycho criticism of the believer that God does not exist ?

        Your thoughts please.

        Albert.





        ----- Original Message -----
        From: louise
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:37 AM
        Subject: [existlist] flockless


        ~ This is what the professors and preachers prattle about; they try to
        prove that God is personal, and this is what makes the congregation
        happy.
        I am not going to speak here about how ridiculous it is to want to
        prove it, for it cannot be "proved" - it must be believed. .....
        ......
        No, God is indeed personal, but it still does not follow that he is
        straightway personal for you. Take a human relationship: a superior
        personality is certainly personal, but does he not have it in his
        power to be personal in relation to the inferior one or to relate
        objectively to him, although it is still true that the superior one is
        and remains personal.
        So also with God. Assuredly, he is personal, but whether he will be
        that toward the individual depends on whether it so pleases God. It
        is the grace of God if he will be personal in his relation to you; and
        if you throw away his grace, he punishes you by relating to you
        objectively. And in this sense it can be said that the world (despite
        all proofs!) does not have a personal God; for the world does not
        please God, and his punishment is to relate objectively to it,
        although he nevertheless remains just as fully personal.
        But while the preachers and professors prattle to the millions about
        proofs of the personality of God, the truth is that long ago there
        ceased to be men capable of bearing the pressure and the weight of
        having a personal God. There is something jolting and soul-stirring
        in the truthfulness with which a patriarch or an apostle talks about
        dying weary of life, for truly having to do with a personal God can
        certainly make a man weary. Figuratively speaking, a workhorse, even
        if it has worked hard at the plow, has no inkling of what it means to
        be as tired as is a trained performing horse when it has been ridden. -
        Alas, even if my life did not otherwise have enough torments and
        sufferings, this alone would be sufficient, this loathing which comes
        over me every time I think of the nonsense on which men waste their
        time and their lives. It would certainly be loathsome to think of men
        living on filth instead of food, eating vermin, etc. - but it is just
        as loathsome to think that men buy and pay an exorbitant price (to the
        preachers and professors) for nonsense - and live happily on it. ~

        Soren Kierkegaard. [not dated, 1854]
        "Journals and Papers", tr. Hong & Hong, Indiana U.P. 1970.

        It's maybe a response, Bill, rather than an answer. I have faith in
        the power of responding. It offers hope for conversation, trust,
        genuine argument. Not that such would be new phenomena at existlist,
        but, oh, how we have wandered. Louise






        Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

        Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist



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      • louise
        [Albert] Might there be a better argument out there than pop-psycho criticism of the believer that God does not exist ? Louise Are you implying that SK asserts
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 2, 2006
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          [Albert]
          Might there be a better argument out there than pop-psycho criticism
          of the believer that God does not exist ?

          Louise
          Are you implying that SK asserts the non-existence of God?? It would
          be rather important, in that case, we clarify and argue over the
          concepts of existence, essence, transcendence, etc. Personally,
          though, I believe his pseudonymous works and his journals do not leave
          us with any such arid discussion, and I feel little qualified, myself,
          to engage at an abstract level, especially if you have not read and
          loved his works. He writes about human existence, suffering, grief,
          love, art, labour, consolation, motherhood, innocence, social
          compromise, you name it.
        • Albert
          Louise You shrug me off with little regard. I do apologise for not loving and reading all SK s works. It seems to me you have much respect for SK as I have
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 2, 2006
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            Louise

            You shrug me off with little regard. I do apologise for not loving and reading all SK's works. It seems to me you have much respect for SK as I have much respect for Freud. However, they both have, so far as my limited research might go, to have the same arguments. And I am saying that these arguments in regard to the existence of God are bias and feeble, and yes, they do more than imply the non-existence of God.

            But your not so subtle attempt not to debate with me is accepted.

            Albert.





            ----- Original Message -----
            From: louise
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 6:41 PM
            Subject: [existlist] Re: flockless


            [Albert]
            Might there be a better argument out there than pop-psycho criticism
            of the believer that God does not exist ?

            Louise
            Are you implying that SK asserts the non-existence of God?? It would
            be rather important, in that case, we clarify and argue over the
            concepts of existence, essence, transcendence, etc. Personally,
            though, I believe his pseudonymous works and his journals do not leave
            us with any such arid discussion, and I feel little qualified, myself,
            to engage at an abstract level, especially if you have not read and
            loved his works. He writes about human existence, suffering, grief,
            love, art, labour, consolation, motherhood, innocence, social
            compromise, you name it.






            Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

            Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist



            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

            a.. Visit your group "existlist" on the web.

            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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          • louise
            Albert, You amaze me. From my perspective, your response seems staggeringly narcissistic. We are not acquainted - how may I shrug you off?? If I have
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 2, 2006
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              Albert,

              You amaze me. From my perspective, your response seems staggeringly
              narcissistic. We are not acquainted - how may I shrug you off?? If
              I have incorrectly inferred that you had read little of Kierkegaard,
              and cared less, I apologise. I was just, well, gobsmacked, that
              both you and Bill seemed to see him as an agnostic. Knowing
              virtually nothing if Freud's work, I am not qualified to debate on
              that subject.

              Regards,
              Louise

              --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Albert" <al_d@...> wrote:
              >
              > Louise
              >
              > You shrug me off with little regard. I do apologise for not loving
              and reading all SK's works. It seems to me you have much respect for
              SK as I have much respect for Freud. However, they both have, so far
              as my limited research might go, to have the same arguments. And I
              am saying that these arguments in regard to the existence of God are
              bias and feeble, and yes, they do more than imply the non-existence
              of God.
              >
              > But your not so subtle attempt not to debate with me is accepted.
              >
              > Albert.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: louise
              > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 6:41 PM
              > Subject: [existlist] Re: flockless
              >
              >
              > [Albert]
              > Might there be a better argument out there than pop-psycho
              criticism
              > of the believer that God does not exist ?
              >
              > Louise
              > Are you implying that SK asserts the non-existence of God?? It
              would
              > be rather important, in that case, we clarify and argue over the
              > concepts of existence, essence, transcendence, etc. Personally,
              > though, I believe his pseudonymous works and his journals do not
              leave
              > us with any such arid discussion, and I feel little qualified,
              myself,
              > to engage at an abstract level, especially if you have not read
              and
              > loved his works. He writes about human existence, suffering,
              grief,
              > love, art, labour, consolation, motherhood, innocence, social
              > compromise, you name it.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
              nothing!
              >
              > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
              >
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
              -----------
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              > a.. Visit your group "existlist" on the web.
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
              of Service.
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
              -----------
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
              -----------
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date:
              2/1/2006
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Albert
              Louise I might well be narcissistic, this is in my mind a healthy thing, though I doubt you meant it in the way I like to think of it. You are the most passive
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 2, 2006
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                Louise

                I might well be narcissistic, this is in my mind a healthy thing, though I doubt you meant it in the way I like to think of it. You are the most passive aggressive person I have ever met !

                You shrugged me off essentially by telling me that I did not know SK and that therefore the matter was not worth discussing to you.

                All I want is a reasonable argument. For example, I think it was Plato who said "...order implies a creator...". This statement supports the hypothesis that God exists. SK criticising the believer does not support the hypothesis that God does not exist. My criticism of SK, is that he is actually trying to prove to his reader that God does not exist by criticising the believer in this way. This is what I meant by "pop-psychology criticism".

                Now before we go any further, I do not actually support any of these two hypotheses, I am merely asking you, an avid reader of SK, to defend him with an argument that does actually support the idea that God does not exist.

                Even kinder regards
                Albert




                ----- Original Message -----
                From: louise
                To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 8:18 PM
                Subject: [existlist] Re: flockless


                Albert,

                You amaze me. From my perspective, your response seems staggeringly
                narcissistic. We are not acquainted - how may I shrug you off?? If
                I have incorrectly inferred that you had read little of Kierkegaard,
                and cared less, I apologise. I was just, well, gobsmacked, that
                both you and Bill seemed to see him as an agnostic. Knowing
                virtually nothing if Freud's work, I am not qualified to debate on
                that subject.

                Regards,
                Louise

                --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Albert" <al_d@...> wrote:
                >
                > Louise
                >
                > You shrug me off with little regard. I do apologise for not loving
                and reading all SK's works. It seems to me you have much respect for
                SK as I have much respect for Freud. However, they both have, so far
                as my limited research might go, to have the same arguments. And I
                am saying that these arguments in regard to the existence of God are
                bias and feeble, and yes, they do more than imply the non-existence
                of God.
                >
                > But your not so subtle attempt not to debate with me is accepted.
                >
                > Albert.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: louise
                > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 6:41 PM
                > Subject: [existlist] Re: flockless
                >
                >
                > [Albert]
                > Might there be a better argument out there than pop-psycho
                criticism
                > of the believer that God does not exist ?
                >
                > Louise
                > Are you implying that SK asserts the non-existence of God?? It
                would
                > be rather important, in that case, we clarify and argue over the
                > concepts of existence, essence, transcendence, etc. Personally,
                > though, I believe his pseudonymous works and his journals do not
                leave
                > us with any such arid discussion, and I feel little qualified,
                myself,
                > to engage at an abstract level, especially if you have not read
                and
                > loved his works. He writes about human existence, suffering,
                grief,
                > love, art, labour, consolation, motherhood, innocence, social
                > compromise, you name it.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                nothing!
                >
                > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
                >
                >
                >
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                -----------
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                > a.. Visit your group "existlist" on the web.
                >
                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                of Service.
                >
                >
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                -----------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                -----------
                >
                >
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date:
                2/1/2006
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >






                Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

                Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist



                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                a.. Visit your group "existlist" on the web.

                b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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              • Albert
                Louise And yes, I write financial accounting systems for a living. I am not very learned when it comes to the arts. This is not to say though that I am
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 2, 2006
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                  Louise

                  And yes, I write financial accounting systems for a living. I am not very learned when it comes to the arts. This is not to say though that I am completely left brain dominant.
                  But please indulge me ?

                  Albert.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: louise
                  To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 8:18 PM
                  Subject: [existlist] Re: flockless


                  Albert,

                  You amaze me. From my perspective, your response seems staggeringly
                  narcissistic. We are not acquainted - how may I shrug you off?? If
                  I have incorrectly inferred that you had read little of Kierkegaard,
                  and cared less, I apologise. I was just, well, gobsmacked, that
                  both you and Bill seemed to see him as an agnostic. Knowing
                  virtually nothing if Freud's work, I am not qualified to debate on
                  that subject.

                  Regards,
                  Louise

                  --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Albert" <al_d@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Louise
                  >
                  > You shrug me off with little regard. I do apologise for not loving
                  and reading all SK's works. It seems to me you have much respect for
                  SK as I have much respect for Freud. However, they both have, so far
                  as my limited research might go, to have the same arguments. And I
                  am saying that these arguments in regard to the existence of God are
                  bias and feeble, and yes, they do more than imply the non-existence
                  of God.
                  >
                  > But your not so subtle attempt not to debate with me is accepted.
                  >
                  > Albert.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: louise
                  > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 6:41 PM
                  > Subject: [existlist] Re: flockless
                  >
                  >
                  > [Albert]
                  > Might there be a better argument out there than pop-psycho
                  criticism
                  > of the believer that God does not exist ?
                  >
                  > Louise
                  > Are you implying that SK asserts the non-existence of God?? It
                  would
                  > be rather important, in that case, we clarify and argue over the
                  > concepts of existence, essence, transcendence, etc. Personally,
                  > though, I believe his pseudonymous works and his journals do not
                  leave
                  > us with any such arid discussion, and I feel little qualified,
                  myself,
                  > to engage at an abstract level, especially if you have not read
                  and
                  > loved his works. He writes about human existence, suffering,
                  grief,
                  > love, art, labour, consolation, motherhood, innocence, social
                  > compromise, you name it.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining
                  nothing!
                  >
                  > Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  > a.. Visit your group "existlist" on the web.
                  >
                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                  of Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  -----------
                  >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date:
                  2/1/2006
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >






                  Please support the Existential Primer... dedicated to explaining nothing!

                  Home Page: http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist



                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                  a.. Visit your group "existlist" on the web.

                  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------




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                  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date: 2/1/2006


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • louise
                  ... though I doubt you meant it in the way I like to think of it. You are the most passive aggressive person I have ever met ! ... SK and that therefore the
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 2, 2006
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                    --- In existlist@yahoogroups.com, "Albert" <al_d@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Louise
                    >
                    > I might well be narcissistic, this is in my mind a healthy thing,
                    though I doubt you meant it in the way I like to think of it. You
                    are the most passive aggressive person I have ever met !
                    >
                    > You shrugged me off essentially by telling me that I did not know
                    SK and that therefore the matter was not worth discussing to you.
                    >
                    > All I want is a reasonable argument. For example, I think it was
                    Plato who said "...order implies a creator...". This statement
                    supports the hypothesis that God exists. SK criticising the believer
                    does not support the hypothesis that God does not exist. My
                    criticism of SK, is that he is actually trying to prove to his
                    reader that God does not exist by criticising the believer in this
                    way. This is what I meant by "pop-psychology criticism".
                    >
                    > Now before we go any further, I do not actually support any of
                    these two hypotheses, I am merely asking you, an avid reader of SK,
                    to defend him with an argument that does actually support the idea
                    that God does not exist.
                    >
                    > Even kinder regards
                    > Albert


                    Albert,

                    First of all, as someone embroiled at present in the variously
                    sympathetic and scary meshes of the British judicial and psychiatric
                    systems, your description of me as passive-aggressive, though not
                    offensive, reads to one of my persuasion as a political statement.
                    If I expanded on my theories - which would take too long, anyway - I
                    don't really expect you would be convinced. In any case, Susan
                    (currently acting as moderator), whilst tolerant of the complexities
                    of this intellective bind I'm in, would prefer psychiatric matters
                    to be discussed elsewhere. My first Yahoo group, to this day a
                    welcome haven to me, welcomes anyone genuinely interested in what
                    the mental medics call schizophrenia. An e-mail to my own address,
                    and I should be happy to direct you there. Actually, my own [self-]
                    diagnosis these days would be manic-depressive, but I distrust
                    labels in general. I love narcissism, to be open with you, and wish
                    only for the liberty to express my own. Well, that 'only' is
                    probably misleading. It is my commitment to paradox and dialectic
                    which gives the impression of belligerence (in my opinion).
                    Your second paragraph is untrue, and I explained my meaning in my
                    reply to you, and apologised!
                    What do you mean by 'SK criticising the believer'?? He only
                    criticises the hypocrisy and complacency of those who claim belief
                    in the Creator he passionately loves, a committed love without
                    illusion (within the given parameters). The apostle Paul, for
                    instance, described himself and other converts as 'the offscourings
                    of the earth'. He expected persecution, resisted lawfully, and
                    fought the good fight.
                    Anyway, all this explanation is intended to clear the way for
                    existential debate. To discuss faith itself is off-topic, so far as
                    I understand the moderators' interpretation of the rules.

                    Regards,
                    Louise
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