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RE: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective

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  • Eduard Alf
    Bill, yes, I suppose that one could get it down to a reason or two. But whatever, there comes a time when it is necessary to take a stand. The terrorist is
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 2, 2001
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      Bill,

      yes, I suppose that one could get it down to a reason or two. But whatever,
      there comes a time when it is necessary to take a stand. The terrorist is
      not much different from the school yard bully. We can talk forever about
      the value of vengeance or whether we are using the term "justice" in a
      correct fashion, but at some point it has to stop. And that requires
      action. I am quite sure that Chamberlain had some very nice evenings of
      contemplation on the subject of worth while responses. However, Hitler was
      inclined to action, and the result is history.

      eduard

      -----Original Message-----
      From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:08 AM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective


      Eduard, Just a few comments on the present situation: I just finished
      instructing a physician in pistol and assault rifle. A retired Army
      officer and
      friend reiterated a thought he related three times before; "There will
      always
      be wars". A friend has always maintained that there are two reasons for
      war; "
      We will be taking your land now" , and, "My god is better than your god".
      He has
      modified the secound statement to read ,"My imaginary friend is better
      than your
      imaginary friend" For me it is one mobilization to far, today is my 55th
      birthday and for the first time in 37 years I am not draft eligible. Go
      get em,
      boys! Bill


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Roggles457@aol.com
      In response to Eduard s remarks, I would like to point out a possibility that may have gotten past him. He has a point about what he talked about, but the
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 2, 2001
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        In response to Eduard's remarks, I would like to point out a possibility that
        may have gotten past him. He has a point about what he talked about, but the
        real problem with this overreaction comes as the following sorts of
        situations.

        1) Carnivore and Wiretapping: Sure, this is good for anti-terrorism, but
        the bill also would be a nice convenient gateway for the FBI to gain access
        to other areas it has wanted to for awhile, things people don't want
        Carnivore and Wiretapping being used for.
        2) Detainment as "Threats to national security" The phrase National
        Security is the most slippery sloped one I've heard in a long time. The
        government can use that extremely liberally. Ex. THe freedom of information
        act does not reveal any of hte governments embarassing foulups, even those
        widely known unofficially, because embarassment to them is a threat to
        "national security." If they can apply it liberally, how long is it before
        anyone who criticizes the government is branded a threat to national
        security. Those who protest the likely upcoming war could be labeled threats
        to national security. Even long after this incident is over, they have a
        convenient gateway for other areas.
        3) If you think it will end here, you are probably misguided, at least in my
        view. There will likely be more attacks, and as a result, more restrictions
        placed upon our freedom as the attacks increase. What comes next, curfew?
        Universal ban on weapons? Cars being searched? Houses being searched? A
        gestapo-like organization being formed? Censorship? Extreme brutality in
        dealing with Afghanistan? It will not end quickly, I expect.

        Freedom will burn in the fires of hatred.

        Ryan
      • nothing@theabsurd.com
        I am very unclear as to your point. You suggest action as the right means for
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 3, 2001
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          <<However, Hitler was inclined to action, and the result is
          history.>>

          I am very unclear as to your point. You suggest action as the right
          means for retaliation, and that it is a good, and then you bring up
          the example of a man (if we are to believe history) who in taking
          action led not only himself but his entire country to demise, ruin
          and loss.

          Is action a short term or long term plan, and what did you mean
          by the example?

          out-of-foci
          --------------
        • Eduard Alf
          Ryan, I would not disagree with what you are saying. Look at what happened in the 1950s when the Committee for Un-American Activities got started as a means
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 3, 2001
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            Ryan,

            I would not disagree with what you are saying. Look at what happened in the
            1950s when the Committee for Un-American Activities got started as a means
            of countering soviet spies. A lot of people lost their livelihoods until
            McCarthy took on the defense department with his accusation of 57 varieties
            of communists supposedly buried therein.

            you are making an unwarranted extrapolation from what I said. My point was
            simply that some action is needed rather sitting around and doing nothing or
            just trading clever remarks. Of course there is a danger in the loss of
            civil liberties [albeit a universal ban on weapons would not be a bad idea],
            as experience has shown. It is a matter of doing this in an intelligent
            manner. I am not suggesting that we allow our freedom to disappear for
            reason of having a better means of protecting those freedoms.

            eduard
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Roggles457@... [mailto:Roggles457@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:49 AM
            To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective


            In response to Eduard's remarks, I would like to point out a possibility
            that
            may have gotten past him. He has a point about what he talked about, but
            the
            real problem with this overreaction comes as the following sorts of
            situations.

            1) Carnivore and Wiretapping: Sure, this is good for anti-terrorism, but
            the bill also would be a nice convenient gateway for the FBI to gain
            access
            to other areas it has wanted to for awhile, things people don't want
            Carnivore and Wiretapping being used for.
            2) Detainment as "Threats to national security" The phrase National
            Security is the most slippery sloped one I've heard in a long time. The
            government can use that extremely liberally. Ex. THe freedom of
            information
            act does not reveal any of hte governments embarassing foulups, even those
            widely known unofficially, because embarassment to them is a threat to
            "national security." If they can apply it liberally, how long is it
            before
            anyone who criticizes the government is branded a threat to national
            security. Those who protest the likely upcoming war could be labeled
            threats
            to national security. Even long after this incident is over, they have a
            convenient gateway for other areas.
            3) If you think it will end here, you are probably misguided, at least in
            my
            view. There will likely be more attacks, and as a result, more
            restrictions
            placed upon our freedom as the attacks increase. What comes next, curfew?
            Universal ban on weapons? Cars being searched? Houses being searched? A
            gestapo-like organization being formed? Censorship? Extreme brutality in
            dealing with Afghanistan? It will not end quickly, I expect.

            Freedom will burn in the fires of hatred.


            Ryan

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • samuel hecht
            uninstall
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 3, 2001
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              uninstall
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