Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective

Expand Messages
  • William Harris
    Eduard, Just a few comments on the present situation: I just finished instructing a physician in pistol and assault rifle. A retired Army officer and friend
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 2, 2001
      Eduard, Just a few comments on the present situation: I just finished
      instructing a physician in pistol and assault rifle. A retired Army officer and
      friend reiterated a thought he related three times before; "There will always
      be wars". A friend has always maintained that there are two reasons for war; "
      We will be taking your land now" , and, "My god is better than your god". He has
      modified the secound statement to read ,"My imaginary friend is better than your
      imaginary friend" For me it is one mobilization to far, today is my 55th
      birthday and for the first time in 37 years I am not draft eligible. Go get em,
      boys! Bill

      Eduard Alf wrote:

      > Bill,
      >
      > I would grant that one could make such comparisons, so as to look outside
      > the box. But although this is laudable for a certain perspective, the
      > danger is that we may wish to accept the loss in some fashion. For example,
      > a lot of federal buildings here went into high alert immediately after the
      > 11sep01 incident, yet today it is mostly put into the past and it is
      > business as usual. Meaning that there is no longer an individual checking
      > passes of persons wishing access. On the one hand this is good from the
      > point of view of not wanting to have too much in the way of restrictions on
      > our freedom of movement, but on the other we may be open to future
      > incidents. We have entered a new world of possible terrorism [or perhaps
      > one should say that we have finally entered an existing world of terrorism]
      > and there has to be a continual care for the safety of people using the
      > infrastructure.
      >
      > eduard
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
      > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:05 PM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perpective
      >
      > Jim, Im glad you got that in before the carnivore starts knawing away at
      > freedom of speach. I think distrust of authoritarians will creep back into
      > the minds of thinking people. "You can fool ...ect" Bush is such a thin
      > stick man, I dont think he will stand up to the blast of unemotional
      > scrutany
      > that will come when more people step back and look at this as you have. In
      > many ways philosophers are like Army Rangers, "Follow me". Bill
      >
      > Jim Aiden wrote:
      >
      > > Some numbers for those that happen to have interest in facts.
      > >
      > > ---
      > > Ten million or so flights happen across the United States every year
      > > vs.
      > > Four planes went down.
      > > ----
      > > Mayor Gulliani estimates a one billion dollar hit on New York State
      > > because of tax losses
      > > vs.
      > > How many trillions is the annual U.S. Budget?
      > > ---
      > > The U.S. Military-Industial Complex can be measured in the trillion
      > > of dollars.
      > > Vs.
      > > Bin Lauden's (alleged mastermind) is worth an estimated 350 million.
      > > ---
      > > 250 million people in the U.S. Plus maybe another billion in what
      > > might one call the 'West'
      > > vs.
      > > A few thousand violent radical Muslim extremists (not to be confused
      > > or associated with a few hundred million Muslims or six billion
      > > humans).
      > > ---
      > > Suffering caused from this one incident.
      > > vs.
      > > Amnesty International Report- > http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/
      > > Unicef -> http://www.unicef.org
      > > Feel free to examine the numbers (in the millions) that die
      > > needlessly every year.
      > > ----
      > > WTC and Pentagon... two very important places damaged and destroyed.
      > > vs.
      > > Exactly how large is the U.S? How big is the world?
      > > ----
      > > Two hundred years creating protection of individual freedom from the
      > > government in the U.S. Constitution... achieved despite wars,
      > > depression, exploitation and slavery.
      > > vs.
      > > A bad day (OK... 'a day that will live in infamy' if that makes Bush
      > > feel like Roosevelt). Let's Carnivore the Internet, wiretap the
      > > entire world, station fully armed military troops in airports,
      > > terrorize tourists at U.S. Borders that spend billions of dollars
      > > annually, escort commercial jetliners with F-16's because some A-RAB
      > > gets caught smoking in the washroom...... I could continue for a while
      > > but here it is in CNN's word's....
      > >
      > > *** Justice Department draft proposals ***
      > > Among the proposals U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft has drafted
      > > to combat terrorists:
      > > - Ease restrictions on wiretap and search warrant requests
      > > - One wire tap order could be valid nationwide
      > > - Allow law enforcement to seize suspected terrorists' voice mail
      > > with search warrant
      > > - Expand mandatory detention for those deemed threat to national
      > > security
      > > - Authorize of search and surveillance in U.S. of non-Americans up to
      > > a year
      > > - Allow broader disclosure of grand jury information
      > > ---
      > >
      > > Maybe somebody gets what I'm alluding to? Perhaps a tiny tiny
      > > bit of an overreaction, drama and neglection of the facts?
      > >
      > > America's response should not have been labeled a WAR.
      > > Unfortunately that word politicizes and emotionally energies
      > > something that really should just be a high profile criminal case and
      > > some adjustments to anti-terrorism policies. I have more important
      > > things to worry then some extremist group, but if it helps
      > > politicians make voters forget about the dwindling economy then who
      > > am I to judge? To the Hawks, enjoy spending billions to kill those
      > > few responsible and 'protect' us and bail out companies that
      > > supposedly detest government spending, while millions still suffer
      > > every single day and our freedoms are stripped away one by one.
      > >
      > > In case people forget, there is a cost associated with everything
      > > whether the cause be just or not... Existentialism 101.
      > >
      > > One last FAQ.... In 2000, the total UNICEF expenditure was 1.1
      > > billion dollars for the ENTIRE world.
      > >
      > > Only another perpective
      > >
      > > J.Aiden
      > >
      > > P.S. Not judging Americans.... I'm judging people everywhere in world.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      > >
      > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
      > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ADVERTISEMENT
      >
      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      >
      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      >
      > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
      > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • Eduard Alf
      Bill, yes, I suppose that one could get it down to a reason or two. But whatever, there comes a time when it is necessary to take a stand. The terrorist is
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 2, 2001
        Bill,

        yes, I suppose that one could get it down to a reason or two. But whatever,
        there comes a time when it is necessary to take a stand. The terrorist is
        not much different from the school yard bully. We can talk forever about
        the value of vengeance or whether we are using the term "justice" in a
        correct fashion, but at some point it has to stop. And that requires
        action. I am quite sure that Chamberlain had some very nice evenings of
        contemplation on the subject of worth while responses. However, Hitler was
        inclined to action, and the result is history.

        eduard

        -----Original Message-----
        From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:08 AM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective


        Eduard, Just a few comments on the present situation: I just finished
        instructing a physician in pistol and assault rifle. A retired Army
        officer and
        friend reiterated a thought he related three times before; "There will
        always
        be wars". A friend has always maintained that there are two reasons for
        war; "
        We will be taking your land now" , and, "My god is better than your god".
        He has
        modified the secound statement to read ,"My imaginary friend is better
        than your
        imaginary friend" For me it is one mobilization to far, today is my 55th
        birthday and for the first time in 37 years I am not draft eligible. Go
        get em,
        boys! Bill


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Roggles457@aol.com
        In response to Eduard s remarks, I would like to point out a possibility that may have gotten past him. He has a point about what he talked about, but the
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 2, 2001
          In response to Eduard's remarks, I would like to point out a possibility that
          may have gotten past him. He has a point about what he talked about, but the
          real problem with this overreaction comes as the following sorts of
          situations.

          1) Carnivore and Wiretapping: Sure, this is good for anti-terrorism, but
          the bill also would be a nice convenient gateway for the FBI to gain access
          to other areas it has wanted to for awhile, things people don't want
          Carnivore and Wiretapping being used for.
          2) Detainment as "Threats to national security" The phrase National
          Security is the most slippery sloped one I've heard in a long time. The
          government can use that extremely liberally. Ex. THe freedom of information
          act does not reveal any of hte governments embarassing foulups, even those
          widely known unofficially, because embarassment to them is a threat to
          "national security." If they can apply it liberally, how long is it before
          anyone who criticizes the government is branded a threat to national
          security. Those who protest the likely upcoming war could be labeled threats
          to national security. Even long after this incident is over, they have a
          convenient gateway for other areas.
          3) If you think it will end here, you are probably misguided, at least in my
          view. There will likely be more attacks, and as a result, more restrictions
          placed upon our freedom as the attacks increase. What comes next, curfew?
          Universal ban on weapons? Cars being searched? Houses being searched? A
          gestapo-like organization being formed? Censorship? Extreme brutality in
          dealing with Afghanistan? It will not end quickly, I expect.

          Freedom will burn in the fires of hatred.

          Ryan
        • nothing@theabsurd.com
          I am very unclear as to your point. You suggest action as the right means for
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 3, 2001
            <<However, Hitler was inclined to action, and the result is
            history.>>

            I am very unclear as to your point. You suggest action as the right
            means for retaliation, and that it is a good, and then you bring up
            the example of a man (if we are to believe history) who in taking
            action led not only himself but his entire country to demise, ruin
            and loss.

            Is action a short term or long term plan, and what did you mean
            by the example?

            out-of-foci
            --------------
          • Eduard Alf
            Ryan, I would not disagree with what you are saying. Look at what happened in the 1950s when the Committee for Un-American Activities got started as a means
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 3, 2001
              Ryan,

              I would not disagree with what you are saying. Look at what happened in the
              1950s when the Committee for Un-American Activities got started as a means
              of countering soviet spies. A lot of people lost their livelihoods until
              McCarthy took on the defense department with his accusation of 57 varieties
              of communists supposedly buried therein.

              you are making an unwarranted extrapolation from what I said. My point was
              simply that some action is needed rather sitting around and doing nothing or
              just trading clever remarks. Of course there is a danger in the loss of
              civil liberties [albeit a universal ban on weapons would not be a bad idea],
              as experience has shown. It is a matter of doing this in an intelligent
              manner. I am not suggesting that we allow our freedom to disappear for
              reason of having a better means of protecting those freedoms.

              eduard
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Roggles457@... [mailto:Roggles457@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:49 AM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective


              In response to Eduard's remarks, I would like to point out a possibility
              that
              may have gotten past him. He has a point about what he talked about, but
              the
              real problem with this overreaction comes as the following sorts of
              situations.

              1) Carnivore and Wiretapping: Sure, this is good for anti-terrorism, but
              the bill also would be a nice convenient gateway for the FBI to gain
              access
              to other areas it has wanted to for awhile, things people don't want
              Carnivore and Wiretapping being used for.
              2) Detainment as "Threats to national security" The phrase National
              Security is the most slippery sloped one I've heard in a long time. The
              government can use that extremely liberally. Ex. THe freedom of
              information
              act does not reveal any of hte governments embarassing foulups, even those
              widely known unofficially, because embarassment to them is a threat to
              "national security." If they can apply it liberally, how long is it
              before
              anyone who criticizes the government is branded a threat to national
              security. Those who protest the likely upcoming war could be labeled
              threats
              to national security. Even long after this incident is over, they have a
              convenient gateway for other areas.
              3) If you think it will end here, you are probably misguided, at least in
              my
              view. There will likely be more attacks, and as a result, more
              restrictions
              placed upon our freedom as the attacks increase. What comes next, curfew?
              Universal ban on weapons? Cars being searched? Houses being searched? A
              gestapo-like organization being formed? Censorship? Extreme brutality in
              dealing with Afghanistan? It will not end quickly, I expect.

              Freedom will burn in the fires of hatred.


              Ryan

              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT




              Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
              (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)

              TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
              existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • samuel hecht
              uninstall
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 3, 2001
                uninstall
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.