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Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective

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  • William Harris
    Eduard, We will learn or we will die. For many years others have thought myself to be overly cautious about security. I have had to deal with some desparate
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 1, 2001
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      Eduard, We will learn or we will die. For many years others have thought myself
      to be overly cautious about security. I have had to deal with some desparate
      sorts and have lived with a sense of threat. Now it comes to the uninitiated to
      live in the dangerous world. I just walked the mall my office is in, it is
      deserted. How long the soccer moms will cower no one can tell. They are hot
      house plants thrown into the jungle. They have no philosophy deeper than their
      local congregation and little experience to draw on. I dont pity them, in fact
      I must try not to laugh. A pastel world dimmed to black and white has no shadows
      to hide behind. Ill bet the pizza delivery business is booming. Bill

      Eduard Alf wrote:

      > Bill,
      >
      > I would grant that one could make such comparisons, so as to look outside
      > the box. But although this is laudable for a certain perspective, the
      > danger is that we may wish to accept the loss in some fashion. For example,
      > a lot of federal buildings here went into high alert immediately after the
      > 11sep01 incident, yet today it is mostly put into the past and it is
      > business as usual. Meaning that there is no longer an individual checking
      > passes of persons wishing access. On the one hand this is good from the
      > point of view of not wanting to have too much in the way of restrictions on
      > our freedom of movement, but on the other we may be open to future
      > incidents. We have entered a new world of possible terrorism [or perhaps
      > one should say that we have finally entered an existing world of terrorism]
      > and there has to be a continual care for the safety of people using the
      > infrastructure.
      >
      > eduard
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
      > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:05 PM
      > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perpective
      >
      > Jim, Im glad you got that in before the carnivore starts knawing away at
      > freedom of speach. I think distrust of authoritarians will creep back into
      > the minds of thinking people. "You can fool ...ect" Bush is such a thin
      > stick man, I dont think he will stand up to the blast of unemotional
      > scrutany
      > that will come when more people step back and look at this as you have. In
      > many ways philosophers are like Army Rangers, "Follow me". Bill
      >
      > Jim Aiden wrote:
      >
      > > Some numbers for those that happen to have interest in facts.
      > >
      > > ---
      > > Ten million or so flights happen across the United States every year
      > > vs.
      > > Four planes went down.
      > > ----
      > > Mayor Gulliani estimates a one billion dollar hit on New York State
      > > because of tax losses
      > > vs.
      > > How many trillions is the annual U.S. Budget?
      > > ---
      > > The U.S. Military-Industial Complex can be measured in the trillion
      > > of dollars.
      > > Vs.
      > > Bin Lauden's (alleged mastermind) is worth an estimated 350 million.
      > > ---
      > > 250 million people in the U.S. Plus maybe another billion in what
      > > might one call the 'West'
      > > vs.
      > > A few thousand violent radical Muslim extremists (not to be confused
      > > or associated with a few hundred million Muslims or six billion
      > > humans).
      > > ---
      > > Suffering caused from this one incident.
      > > vs.
      > > Amnesty International Report- > http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/
      > > Unicef -> http://www.unicef.org
      > > Feel free to examine the numbers (in the millions) that die
      > > needlessly every year.
      > > ----
      > > WTC and Pentagon... two very important places damaged and destroyed.
      > > vs.
      > > Exactly how large is the U.S? How big is the world?
      > > ----
      > > Two hundred years creating protection of individual freedom from the
      > > government in the U.S. Constitution... achieved despite wars,
      > > depression, exploitation and slavery.
      > > vs.
      > > A bad day (OK... 'a day that will live in infamy' if that makes Bush
      > > feel like Roosevelt). Let's Carnivore the Internet, wiretap the
      > > entire world, station fully armed military troops in airports,
      > > terrorize tourists at U.S. Borders that spend billions of dollars
      > > annually, escort commercial jetliners with F-16's because some A-RAB
      > > gets caught smoking in the washroom...... I could continue for a while
      > > but here it is in CNN's word's....
      > >
      > > *** Justice Department draft proposals ***
      > > Among the proposals U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft has drafted
      > > to combat terrorists:
      > > - Ease restrictions on wiretap and search warrant requests
      > > - One wire tap order could be valid nationwide
      > > - Allow law enforcement to seize suspected terrorists' voice mail
      > > with search warrant
      > > - Expand mandatory detention for those deemed threat to national
      > > security
      > > - Authorize of search and surveillance in U.S. of non-Americans up to
      > > a year
      > > - Allow broader disclosure of grand jury information
      > > ---
      > >
      > > Maybe somebody gets what I'm alluding to? Perhaps a tiny tiny
      > > bit of an overreaction, drama and neglection of the facts?
      > >
      > > America's response should not have been labeled a WAR.
      > > Unfortunately that word politicizes and emotionally energies
      > > something that really should just be a high profile criminal case and
      > > some adjustments to anti-terrorism policies. I have more important
      > > things to worry then some extremist group, but if it helps
      > > politicians make voters forget about the dwindling economy then who
      > > am I to judge? To the Hawks, enjoy spending billions to kill those
      > > few responsible and 'protect' us and bail out companies that
      > > supposedly detest government spending, while millions still suffer
      > > every single day and our freedoms are stripped away one by one.
      > >
      > > In case people forget, there is a cost associated with everything
      > > whether the cause be just or not... Existentialism 101.
      > >
      > > One last FAQ.... In 2000, the total UNICEF expenditure was 1.1
      > > billion dollars for the ENTIRE world.
      > >
      > > Only another perpective
      > >
      > > J.Aiden
      > >
      > > P.S. Not judging Americans.... I'm judging people everywhere in world.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
      > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
      > >
      > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
      > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > ADVERTISEMENT
      >
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      >
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      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
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    • Eduard Alf
      very true. I doubt that I would make it far in the new world. For me, violence has been something I see on TV. I rarely lock my door. When I go for a walk,
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 1, 2001
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        very true.

        I doubt that I would make it far in the new world. For me, violence has
        been something I see on TV. I rarely lock my door. When I go for a walk, I
        don't expect to meet up with something more than an irritated squirrel.
        Times, they are a changing.

        eduard
        -----Original Message-----
        From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
        Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 5:13 PM
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective


        Eduard, We will learn or we will die. For many years others have thought
        myself
        to be overly cautious about security. I have had to deal with some
        desparate
        sorts and have lived with a sense of threat. Now it comes to the
        uninitiated to
        live in the dangerous world. I just walked the mall my office is in, it is
        deserted. How long the soccer moms will cower no one can tell. They are
        hot
        house plants thrown into the jungle. They have no philosophy deeper than
        their
        local congregation and little experience to draw on. I dont pity them, in
        fact
        I must try not to laugh. A pastel world dimmed to black and white has no
        shadows
        to hide behind. Ill bet the pizza delivery business is booming. Bill


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ryan Dewald
        ... HA!! Hadn t thought of *that*. I m gonna have a look at Pizza Hut stock. Ry
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 1, 2001
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          >"I'll bet the pizza delivery business is booming."

          HA!! Hadn't thought of *that*. I'm gonna have a look at Pizza Hut stock.

          Ry
        • William Harris
          Eduard, Just a few comments on the present situation: I just finished instructing a physician in pistol and assault rifle. A retired Army officer and friend
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 2, 2001
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            Eduard, Just a few comments on the present situation: I just finished
            instructing a physician in pistol and assault rifle. A retired Army officer and
            friend reiterated a thought he related three times before; "There will always
            be wars". A friend has always maintained that there are two reasons for war; "
            We will be taking your land now" , and, "My god is better than your god". He has
            modified the secound statement to read ,"My imaginary friend is better than your
            imaginary friend" For me it is one mobilization to far, today is my 55th
            birthday and for the first time in 37 years I am not draft eligible. Go get em,
            boys! Bill

            Eduard Alf wrote:

            > Bill,
            >
            > I would grant that one could make such comparisons, so as to look outside
            > the box. But although this is laudable for a certain perspective, the
            > danger is that we may wish to accept the loss in some fashion. For example,
            > a lot of federal buildings here went into high alert immediately after the
            > 11sep01 incident, yet today it is mostly put into the past and it is
            > business as usual. Meaning that there is no longer an individual checking
            > passes of persons wishing access. On the one hand this is good from the
            > point of view of not wanting to have too much in the way of restrictions on
            > our freedom of movement, but on the other we may be open to future
            > incidents. We have entered a new world of possible terrorism [or perhaps
            > one should say that we have finally entered an existing world of terrorism]
            > and there has to be a continual care for the safety of people using the
            > infrastructure.
            >
            > eduard
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
            > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:05 PM
            > To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perpective
            >
            > Jim, Im glad you got that in before the carnivore starts knawing away at
            > freedom of speach. I think distrust of authoritarians will creep back into
            > the minds of thinking people. "You can fool ...ect" Bush is such a thin
            > stick man, I dont think he will stand up to the blast of unemotional
            > scrutany
            > that will come when more people step back and look at this as you have. In
            > many ways philosophers are like Army Rangers, "Follow me". Bill
            >
            > Jim Aiden wrote:
            >
            > > Some numbers for those that happen to have interest in facts.
            > >
            > > ---
            > > Ten million or so flights happen across the United States every year
            > > vs.
            > > Four planes went down.
            > > ----
            > > Mayor Gulliani estimates a one billion dollar hit on New York State
            > > because of tax losses
            > > vs.
            > > How many trillions is the annual U.S. Budget?
            > > ---
            > > The U.S. Military-Industial Complex can be measured in the trillion
            > > of dollars.
            > > Vs.
            > > Bin Lauden's (alleged mastermind) is worth an estimated 350 million.
            > > ---
            > > 250 million people in the U.S. Plus maybe another billion in what
            > > might one call the 'West'
            > > vs.
            > > A few thousand violent radical Muslim extremists (not to be confused
            > > or associated with a few hundred million Muslims or six billion
            > > humans).
            > > ---
            > > Suffering caused from this one incident.
            > > vs.
            > > Amnesty International Report- > http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/
            > > Unicef -> http://www.unicef.org
            > > Feel free to examine the numbers (in the millions) that die
            > > needlessly every year.
            > > ----
            > > WTC and Pentagon... two very important places damaged and destroyed.
            > > vs.
            > > Exactly how large is the U.S? How big is the world?
            > > ----
            > > Two hundred years creating protection of individual freedom from the
            > > government in the U.S. Constitution... achieved despite wars,
            > > depression, exploitation and slavery.
            > > vs.
            > > A bad day (OK... 'a day that will live in infamy' if that makes Bush
            > > feel like Roosevelt). Let's Carnivore the Internet, wiretap the
            > > entire world, station fully armed military troops in airports,
            > > terrorize tourists at U.S. Borders that spend billions of dollars
            > > annually, escort commercial jetliners with F-16's because some A-RAB
            > > gets caught smoking in the washroom...... I could continue for a while
            > > but here it is in CNN's word's....
            > >
            > > *** Justice Department draft proposals ***
            > > Among the proposals U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft has drafted
            > > to combat terrorists:
            > > - Ease restrictions on wiretap and search warrant requests
            > > - One wire tap order could be valid nationwide
            > > - Allow law enforcement to seize suspected terrorists' voice mail
            > > with search warrant
            > > - Expand mandatory detention for those deemed threat to national
            > > security
            > > - Authorize of search and surveillance in U.S. of non-Americans up to
            > > a year
            > > - Allow broader disclosure of grand jury information
            > > ---
            > >
            > > Maybe somebody gets what I'm alluding to? Perhaps a tiny tiny
            > > bit of an overreaction, drama and neglection of the facts?
            > >
            > > America's response should not have been labeled a WAR.
            > > Unfortunately that word politicizes and emotionally energies
            > > something that really should just be a high profile criminal case and
            > > some adjustments to anti-terrorism policies. I have more important
            > > things to worry then some extremist group, but if it helps
            > > politicians make voters forget about the dwindling economy then who
            > > am I to judge? To the Hawks, enjoy spending billions to kill those
            > > few responsible and 'protect' us and bail out companies that
            > > supposedly detest government spending, while millions still suffer
            > > every single day and our freedoms are stripped away one by one.
            > >
            > > In case people forget, there is a cost associated with everything
            > > whether the cause be just or not... Existentialism 101.
            > >
            > > One last FAQ.... In 2000, the total UNICEF expenditure was 1.1
            > > billion dollars for the ENTIRE world.
            > >
            > > Only another perpective
            > >
            > > J.Aiden
            > >
            > > P.S. Not judging Americans.... I'm judging people everywhere in world.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            > >
            > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > Our Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/existlist
            > (Includes community book list, chat, and more.)
            >
            > TO UNSUBSCRIBE from this group, send an email to:
            > existlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Eduard Alf
            Bill, yes, I suppose that one could get it down to a reason or two. But whatever, there comes a time when it is necessary to take a stand. The terrorist is
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 2, 2001
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              Bill,

              yes, I suppose that one could get it down to a reason or two. But whatever,
              there comes a time when it is necessary to take a stand. The terrorist is
              not much different from the school yard bully. We can talk forever about
              the value of vengeance or whether we are using the term "justice" in a
              correct fashion, but at some point it has to stop. And that requires
              action. I am quite sure that Chamberlain had some very nice evenings of
              contemplation on the subject of worth while responses. However, Hitler was
              inclined to action, and the result is history.

              eduard

              -----Original Message-----
              From: William Harris [mailto:bhvwd@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:08 AM
              To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective


              Eduard, Just a few comments on the present situation: I just finished
              instructing a physician in pistol and assault rifle. A retired Army
              officer and
              friend reiterated a thought he related three times before; "There will
              always
              be wars". A friend has always maintained that there are two reasons for
              war; "
              We will be taking your land now" , and, "My god is better than your god".
              He has
              modified the secound statement to read ,"My imaginary friend is better
              than your
              imaginary friend" For me it is one mobilization to far, today is my 55th
              birthday and for the first time in 37 years I am not draft eligible. Go
              get em,
              boys! Bill


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Roggles457@aol.com
              In response to Eduard s remarks, I would like to point out a possibility that may have gotten past him. He has a point about what he talked about, but the
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 2, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                In response to Eduard's remarks, I would like to point out a possibility that
                may have gotten past him. He has a point about what he talked about, but the
                real problem with this overreaction comes as the following sorts of
                situations.

                1) Carnivore and Wiretapping: Sure, this is good for anti-terrorism, but
                the bill also would be a nice convenient gateway for the FBI to gain access
                to other areas it has wanted to for awhile, things people don't want
                Carnivore and Wiretapping being used for.
                2) Detainment as "Threats to national security" The phrase National
                Security is the most slippery sloped one I've heard in a long time. The
                government can use that extremely liberally. Ex. THe freedom of information
                act does not reveal any of hte governments embarassing foulups, even those
                widely known unofficially, because embarassment to them is a threat to
                "national security." If they can apply it liberally, how long is it before
                anyone who criticizes the government is branded a threat to national
                security. Those who protest the likely upcoming war could be labeled threats
                to national security. Even long after this incident is over, they have a
                convenient gateway for other areas.
                3) If you think it will end here, you are probably misguided, at least in my
                view. There will likely be more attacks, and as a result, more restrictions
                placed upon our freedom as the attacks increase. What comes next, curfew?
                Universal ban on weapons? Cars being searched? Houses being searched? A
                gestapo-like organization being formed? Censorship? Extreme brutality in
                dealing with Afghanistan? It will not end quickly, I expect.

                Freedom will burn in the fires of hatred.

                Ryan
              • nothing@theabsurd.com
                I am very unclear as to your point. You suggest action as the right means for
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 3, 2001
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                  <<However, Hitler was inclined to action, and the result is
                  history.>>

                  I am very unclear as to your point. You suggest action as the right
                  means for retaliation, and that it is a good, and then you bring up
                  the example of a man (if we are to believe history) who in taking
                  action led not only himself but his entire country to demise, ruin
                  and loss.

                  Is action a short term or long term plan, and what did you mean
                  by the example?

                  out-of-foci
                  --------------
                • Eduard Alf
                  Ryan, I would not disagree with what you are saying. Look at what happened in the 1950s when the Committee for Un-American Activities got started as a means
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 3, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ryan,

                    I would not disagree with what you are saying. Look at what happened in the
                    1950s when the Committee for Un-American Activities got started as a means
                    of countering soviet spies. A lot of people lost their livelihoods until
                    McCarthy took on the defense department with his accusation of 57 varieties
                    of communists supposedly buried therein.

                    you are making an unwarranted extrapolation from what I said. My point was
                    simply that some action is needed rather sitting around and doing nothing or
                    just trading clever remarks. Of course there is a danger in the loss of
                    civil liberties [albeit a universal ban on weapons would not be a bad idea],
                    as experience has shown. It is a matter of doing this in an intelligent
                    manner. I am not suggesting that we allow our freedom to disappear for
                    reason of having a better means of protecting those freedoms.

                    eduard
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Roggles457@... [mailto:Roggles457@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:49 AM
                    To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [existlist] Sept.11 in perspective


                    In response to Eduard's remarks, I would like to point out a possibility
                    that
                    may have gotten past him. He has a point about what he talked about, but
                    the
                    real problem with this overreaction comes as the following sorts of
                    situations.

                    1) Carnivore and Wiretapping: Sure, this is good for anti-terrorism, but
                    the bill also would be a nice convenient gateway for the FBI to gain
                    access
                    to other areas it has wanted to for awhile, things people don't want
                    Carnivore and Wiretapping being used for.
                    2) Detainment as "Threats to national security" The phrase National
                    Security is the most slippery sloped one I've heard in a long time. The
                    government can use that extremely liberally. Ex. THe freedom of
                    information
                    act does not reveal any of hte governments embarassing foulups, even those
                    widely known unofficially, because embarassment to them is a threat to
                    "national security." If they can apply it liberally, how long is it
                    before
                    anyone who criticizes the government is branded a threat to national
                    security. Those who protest the likely upcoming war could be labeled
                    threats
                    to national security. Even long after this incident is over, they have a
                    convenient gateway for other areas.
                    3) If you think it will end here, you are probably misguided, at least in
                    my
                    view. There will likely be more attacks, and as a result, more
                    restrictions
                    placed upon our freedom as the attacks increase. What comes next, curfew?
                    Universal ban on weapons? Cars being searched? Houses being searched? A
                    gestapo-like organization being formed? Censorship? Extreme brutality in
                    dealing with Afghanistan? It will not end quickly, I expect.

                    Freedom will burn in the fires of hatred.


                    Ryan

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • samuel hecht
                    uninstall
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 3, 2001
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                      uninstall
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