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RE: [existlist] Re: Speaksay ...

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  • Eduard Alf
    in this particular instance where you have something like 7000 people killed, there is a need for clarity. This is not to suggest that action be done in a
    Message 1 of 50 , Sep 30, 2001
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      in this particular instance where you have something like 7000 people
      killed, there is a need for clarity. This is not to suggest that action be
      done in a mindless fashion. Sure, there is a potential for more damage
      rather than less. But running this around to absurdity does not help
      anyone.

      eduard
      -----Original Message-----
      From: nothing@... [mailto:nothing@...]
      Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 9:14 AM
      To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [existlist] Re: Speaksay ...


      << I suppose that if someone comes over to your neighbourhood
      and kills your family, then one could go into all that nice stuff
      about causes and reasons for anger and frustration. >>

      This could happen with a madman in my country down the block
      having a bad day just as well as it could from some other type of
      confrontation. If I were to react without thinking to any of these
      potential situations, there is perhaps no reason to believe I give
      myself an advantage. If you are not reasonable, I would suggest
      you were not quite a snail and that the potential for more
      damage is greater rather than less.

      yaskaeps
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    • james tan
      thanks. james. From: Jim Aiden Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com To: existlist@yahoogroups.com Subject: [existlist] Re: one, two,
      Message 50 of 50 , Oct 5, 2001
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        thanks.

        james.





        From: "Jim Aiden" <livewild@...>
        Reply-To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        To: existlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [existlist] Re: one, two, three, 7000
        Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:57:12 -0000


        Although I am unsure how I would react in real world decisions, I
        am with you in your struggle for idealism James.

        J.Aiden

        ---------------

        --- In existlist@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
        >
        > ideally, all lives are priceless; realistically, sometimes we do
        find that
        > one's person life is more 'pricey' than another's life, but that is
        only as
        > the world judge it, how 'they' judge it. that is the business of the
        'they';
        > i'm more concerned with the 'i'. who is to judge? bill gate may
        think his
        > life is more expensive than, say, a beggar's. but the beggar may not
        think
        > so (if he still has some self-respect). all the thousands of
        employees under
        > microsoft would most probably think bill's worth more. like what u
        said, the
        > worth of one person's life seem to correlate to his income, or
        capacity to
        > generate income. but life per se, at least for me (i'm quite a
        idealistic
        > person), is something that u can't measure with any of these
        variables, such
        > as asset worth, no. of shares one has, bank balance, physical
        beauty, social
        > status, power, the kind of car u're driving in, etc. most may think
        that the
        > president's life is more valuable than a beggar's, but personally i
        think
        > they are equally valuable, or priceless. yea, the president has his
        personal
        > aeroplanes or helicopters, & he commands the entire military with
        millions
        > of fighting fit men and equipments with the most sophisticated
        technology
        > with billions of dollars worth of research, & the beggar got jail &
        other
        > humiliation over stealing a miserable loft of bread from delifrance,
        still i
        > think their lives are equally precious. as u can see, i am
        'hopelessly'
        > idealistic. i can concede that the president has a much more
        important
        > function in society than that old man with trembling hands who sleep
        under
        > the bridge and sometimes feed on filthy & disease-infected rats for
        meals;
        > that, i can say. but whose life is more valuable? to me, they are
        equally
        > so. (of course, u are entitled to your own opinion). personally i
        never
        > subscribe to how the world 'value'; yes, they do try to put some
        kind of
        > price tag on lives based on some variables, but i don't care how
        these
        > 'valuer' values when it comes to life. i can accept that my friend's
        > insurance policy worth so & so only should he die, or he is only
        earning
        > this much income, but to me, my friend's life is priceless.
        >
        > if a murderer can bribe or outsmart the judiciary system his way out
        of
        > conviction, then i guess it is just too bad. that is the system with
        have,
        > it is the best we have so far, & we try to improve where we can. but
        the
        > point was, if he cannot, at least in principle the law will still
        hold him
        > accountable for a life lost, a life no matter how 'cheap' to his
        eyes or the
        > society's, and be totally responsible for the price for it; ie. a
        (no matter
        > how 'expensive') life for a (no matter how 'cheap') life. [the issue
        of
        > whether it make sense to take another life is another point].
        >
        > u are mentioning about the millions of dollars that can save some
        lives.
        > this reminds me of 'schindler's list'. did u watch that steven
        spielberg's
        > masterpiece? i respect this man (i mean, schindler) a lot. he was
        bascially
        > a member of the nazi party, a womanizer, even a war profiteer who
        bascially
        > was concerned with making money, yet more money, a typical and
        thorough
        > businessman. yet when he had amassed much money, he actually gave it
        to the
        > nazis in exchange for the lives of some jews totally unrelated to
        him,
        > either by race or relations (except humanity). some nazis officers
        put price
        > tag on the lives of these jews, & for schindler it was the best
        'bargain' he
        > could have: to pay some dollars (or cents?) in exchange for what is
        > priceless - human lives. he grapped it. what schindler gained or
        profitted
        > is something more than money can buy, his own humanity & lives of
        jews, or
        > let's put it more generally, lives of humans. the nazis might
        artificially
        > put some price labels on these lives, put it as if it's an economic
        issues,
        > but in the eyes of god, or at least schindler's, he appreciated
        better.
        > schlinder more than anyone knew the power of money, but that is not
        the only
        > level he stopped at; his vision was higher, his appreciation deeper,
        his own
        > (spiritual) richness & humanity made him identity the spirit &
        humanity of
        > the Other, which is priceless & infinitely precious, no matter how
        > physically filthy or poor the Other may be. not everybody who had as
        much
        > wealth as him would (choose to) do the same sort of thing; afterall,
        he did
        > become quite penniless; but it was schindler's choice, schindler's
        list.
        >
        > james.
        >
        >
        > From: "Jim Aiden" <livewild@h...>
        > Reply-To: existlist@y...
        > To: existlist@y...
        > Subject: [existlist] Re: one, two, three, 7000
        > Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 19:02:29 -0000
        >
        >
        > << i have hundreds of millions, & i want to buy your life, would u
        > sell it? >>
        >
        > Those numbers are not my ideals James, just what the world
        ends
        > up doing. Send me a cashier check though, I might surprise you. That
        > money could be put to much better use than myself.
        >
        > << developed (important) countries is tens of millions. say, for
        the
        > sake of argument, what is that tens of millions to u if u have no
        > life? this is what i meant or agree with (can't remember who said
        > what) that life is priceless.
        >
        > I see I misunderstood. Does this mean our own life is
        priceless
        > but others do have a price. (Not implying you believe that, but now
        > that I think about it I believe many might)
        >
        > << if i kill someone, can i bribe my way out & escape the law as
        if
        > there is a price i can pay for that man's life? i can assure u that
        > even if (hypothetically) bill gate, for all his worth & riches,
        kill
        > a dirty, smelly & pathetic old beggar on the fringe of death (but
        not
        > dead yet), he would have to stand on trial for murder, & if
        convicted,
        > get the death penalty.>>
        >
        > There are many potential holes in this argument. Someone very
        > wealthy would likely get someone else to do their dirty work. In the
        > event they were caught, the luckilyhood of conviction drops
        > significantly since they can afford many high priced lawyers. Not to
        > mention the death penelty (where applicable) is usually reserved for
        > certain types of murders. The reality? How many wealthy or
        influential
        > men (although there can be exceptions) have been convicted of
        murder?
        > Stalin and Mao murdered millions, they got away with it just fine.
        >
        > << the price that is tagged by the insurance company is a artificial
        > one, it is just a sum of money the dead's relative will get, but the
        > company will not say that the dead's life is worth that much; the
        most
        > he would say is that his policy is worth that much. there is a
        > difference.>>
        >
        > I agree but you have never addressed how you would handle the
        economic
        > issues I described. The hundreds of millions in your possesion will
        > save someone's life.
        >
        > << well, this is my view, & btw, i'm no existentialist. i happened
        to
        > be in this list just for the fun. >>
        >
        > I find that very interesting about Existentialism. Its a
        > philosophy with few official followers, but with a tremendous number
        > that subscribe to its beliefs. (btw.. I'm not either)
        >
        > J.Aiden.
        >
        > -------------------------------
        >
        > --- In existlist@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
        > >
        > > based on ur listed 'rate' of worth of lives, the 'price' of a
        man's
        > life in
        > > developed (important) countries is tens of millions. say, for the
        > sake of
        > > argument, i have hundreds of millions, & i want to buy your life,
        > would u
        > > sell it? what is that tens of millions to u if u have no life?
        this
        > is what
        > > i meant or agree with (can't remember who said what) that life is
        > priceless.
        > > if i kill someone, can i bribe my way out & escape the law as if
        > there is a
        > > price i can pay for that man's life? i can assure u that even if
        > > (hypothetically) bill gate, for all his worth & riches, kill a
        > dirty, smelly
        > > & pathetic old beggar on the fringe of death (but not dead yet),
        he
        > would
        > > have to stand on trial for murder, & if convicted, get the death
        > penalty.
        > > yes, even a bill gate's life for a beggar. what is the basis of
        > comparison
        > > between one person's life and the other? if u could come out with
        > one,
        > > remember that u are talking about life itself, so question
        whether
        > it is a
        > > valid one the basis u have coined up. the price that is tagged by
        > the
        > > insurance company is a artificial one, it is just a sum of money
        the
        > dead's
        > > relative will get, but the company will not say that the dead's
        life
        > is
        > > worth that much; the most he would say is that his policy is
        worth
        > that
        > > much. there is a difference. well, this is my view, & btw, i'm no
        > > existentialist. i happened to be in this list just for the fun.
        > >
        > > james.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > From: "Jim Aiden" <livewild@h...>
        > > Reply-To: existlist@y...
        > > To: existlist@y...
        > > Subject: [existlist] Re: one, two, three, 7000
        > > Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:16:59 -0000
        > >
        > >
        > > >> just because life is calculated by insurance company to be
        worth
        > so
        > > & so doesn't mean it IS so & so. Such a priceless and truly
        > invaluable
        > > thing cannot be calculated. <<
        > >
        > > I usually am in agreement with you James but as someone
        > interested
        > > in Existentialism your response somewhat surprises me.
        > >
        > > Basic Existentialist tenet...
        > >
        > > Every decision in life comes at a cost.
        > >
        > > A pure existentialist has to attach a price to life. I agree
        > with
        > > you somewhat in spirit and what one if our goals should be, but
        must
        > > conceed I do not know of a way yet of not attaching a price to
        life.
        > > Any limited resource we take from one place comes at the cost of
        > > another. Pure math of the universe.
        > >
        > > Here are some examples that might illustate better what I am
        > > saying. It is an easy and noble thing to say life is priceless,
        but
        > if
        > > one were in a position to make such decisions, the arrow may fall
        > > elsewhere.
        > >
        > > Assumption: You have 100 million dollars in your bank account.
        (this
        > > is not really necessary because the options apply right now no
        > matter
        > > how much money you have)
        > >
        > > a. You can spend it all investing in pharmaceutical companies
        cancer
        > > fighting research that may not save even one life but also may
        save
        > > millions later. (and people profit from this)
        > >
        > > b. You can spend it all buying food and medicine for the dying in
        > > third world nations. (Immediate relief - Usually associated with
        > Saint
        > > option but not many long term benefits.)
        > >
        > > c. You can donate it to the Sept.11th Fund. (These people are
        > > suffering but by no means in threat of starvation)
        > >
        > > d. You may spend it on yourself your own family, your own friends
        > and
        > > give some to charities of various sorts. (most common option)
        > >
        > > Every dollar you keep in your own pocket, potentially could be
        used
        > > for saving lives. I can't but help see that in a very real way,
        any
        > > money that I keep (beyond just staying alive) I have in a small
        way
        > > choosen someone's life over sacrificing that money. This is a
        very
        > > painful thought for me and why I can see the allure of ideologies
        > and
        > > religions that 'suggest' sharing.
        > >
        > > Does anyone have the stomach (or any statistics) to put a dollar
        > value
        > > to a human life? I loath to think about it but in practice I
        think
        > > there isn't even one price. It depends who you are, where you
        live,
        > > your importance to the world, and who your friends are. I don't
        > > personally agree with these numbers below (out of my head but
        > further
        > > illustraiting) but this is how I think our society values lives
        > > somewhat. I believe the billions we spend annually on ourselves
        > versus
        > > others will attest to this. I'm not making a moral statement,
        just
        > an
        > > observation. Perhaps it is the best way to help others over the
        long
        > > term, is by significantly helping oneself (Don't ask me where to
        > draw
        > > the line). By far, most charity and medicine in the world does
        come
        > > from the countries with the economic/political structure we have.
        > >
        > > Developed (important)..... tens of millions
        > > Developed (middle)........ a couple of million
        > > Developed (poor).......... a million or so
        > > Third world............... $20
        > >
        > > (There also seems to be a coorrelation between how much an
        > individual
        > > produces and what their life is worth. Despite loud
        proclaimations
        > > otherwise, even communist and religious countries attach a price
        to
        > > life....generally a little more equal but far lower in value in
        > fact)
        > >
        > >
        > > I do not think placing a dollar value on life is very honourable
        or
        > > desirable (I find it belittles life). Despite the philosophical
        > moral
        > > dilemma though, in practice under the current conditions, social
        > > democratic capitalism seems to work best to prevent suffering
        than
        > the
        > > metaphysical and theoretical offerings so far suggested.
        > >
        > > Tough choices. When something better appears, sign me up.
        > >
        > > J.Aiden
        > >
        > > P.S.
        > >
        > > Perhaps one day technology and knowledge might one day free
        us
        > of
        > > this moral burden.
        > >
        > > ----------------------
        > > --- In existlist@y..., "james tan" <tyjfk@h...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > james.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > From: "Jim Aiden" <livewild@h...>
        > > > Reply-To: existlist@y...
        > > > To: existlist@y...
        > > > Subject: [existlist] Re: one, two, three, 7000
        > > > Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 14:02:17 -0000
        > > >
        > > >>
        > > >
        > > > Our insurance and healthcare companies do it all the time.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
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